I HATE RICHELIEU

[CPL_Sivi]

Well i wont dispute ur points cagliostro, but i have far better experience with jb than fdg. U just cant molest tX bbs with fdg the way u can with baguette. If u cant pen it u can burn it. Simple as that. I did have to respec it recently to match cv meta but french speed and agility gives u more options than KM. U dont have to give side to bear all ur firepower front, main belt will deflect even the strongest ap when angled. HE is a problem since armor is bad but i manage to work around it lately. Tho fdg has as weak and big upper structure so its not immune to the same problems as jb family of boats. But as i said, i respect ur opinion altho i dont fully agree.

[lafeel]

3 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

Sidenote: the one time bowtanking is foolproof is if you are facing people who don'T understand HE.

And are all attacking you from the same direction.

[HaachamaShipping]

7 hours ago, CPL_Sivi said:

Well i wont dispute ur points cagliostro, but i have far better experience with jb than fdg. U just cant molest tX bbs with fdg the way u can with baguette. 

I'm not claiming FdG is better in every way, certainly not at that. It's only in a brawl, FdG any day over pretty much any T9 BB. within 11.5 km, when secondaries open up, the FdG will win basically most 1v1s. It's only that typically, this is the poorest kind of specialisation to have and FdG to me is basically just a meme. The main approach in ranked with it would be to basically rush in, abuse islands, get in their face before they know how to react, draw fire, hydro torps (and DDs). Musashi cannot delete your stupidly armoured ship before you get to its side and throw 40.6 cm shells into its cit. Jean Bart might try burn your BB or shoot AP (which isn't going to kill you if you are angled), but any JB knowing what's up will engage the FdG at range, where they have the advantage, not in a brawl where FdG's secondaries melt your BB that has one of the worst hp pools at T9, if not the worst (effectively, should be worst, given Lion gets superheal).

 

As for Richelieu, I have yet to understand the point of the ship. Like, why? I cannot see how speed boost can be so great as to make it worth playing over Bismarck with actual armour or Monarch with concealment and better dpm. Maybe one day I'll understand, but so far, it certainly hasn't convinced me to give French BBs more of a try.

[GulvkluderGuld]

11 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

As for Richelieu, I have yet to understand the point of the ship. Like, why? I cannot see how speed boost can be so great as to make it worth playing over Bismarck with actual armour or Monarch with concealment and better dpm. Maybe one day I'll understand, but so far, it certainly hasn't convinced me to give French BBs more of a try.

With you on the FdG > Alsace (dont have JB) and brawling.

 

As to Richie, it can hit what you shoot at, which is more than can be said about a Bismarck or *gasp* Monarch. Also monarch as the same trash 32 mm armor and stealth is useless because the AP will troll you every single time you use it, so better stick with HE.

[ollonborre]

11 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

As for Richelieu, I have yet to understand the point of the ship. Like, why? I cannot see how speed boost can be so great as to make it worth playing over Bismarck with actual armour or Monarch with concealment and better dpm. Maybe one day I'll understand, but so far, it certainly hasn't convinced me to give French BBs more of a try.

The Riche has by far the most reliable gun performance in my experience, best AA among the 3 and yeah while the speed boost is a gimmick it is a gimmick than can help you get out of a bow on situation quickly and disengage. For randoms I find it to be great, but for ranked and the like NC and Amagi are still superiour.

[HaachamaShipping]

54 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

With you on the FdG > Alsace (dont have JB) and brawling.

 

As to Richie, it can hit what you shoot at, which is more than can be said about a Bismarck or *gasp* Monarch. Also monarch as the same trash 32 mm armor and stealth is useless because the AP will troll you every single time you use it, so better stick with HE.

 

32 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

The Riche has by far the most reliable gun performance in my experience, best AA among the 3 and yeah while the speed boost is a gimmick it is a gimmick than can help you get out of a bow on situation quickly and disengage. For randoms I find it to be great, but for ranked and the like NC and Amagi are still superiour.

There is exactly nothing though that indicates Richelieu having better accuracy than Bismarck or Monarch. Same sigma across the board, same horizontal dispersion as Bismarck, worse than Monarch, certainly not better vertical dispersion, given that value depends on shell velocity, where Richelieu about matches Monarch's shell velocity, outperforms Bismarck and is only surpassed by a significant margin by Roma (which with the highest shell velocity produces the most inconsistent shot patterns).

 

As said, I haven't played Richelieu, so I'm not going to make grand statements, but on paper, it basically looks quite mediocre and speed boost is imo harder to put to use than armour or concealment, given even with speed boost outrunning enemies is hard and even on French cruisers, speed boost loses some of its survivability value if people learn how to lead properly their shoots. French BBs are nowhere as nimble as the cruisers, so for dodging I question its reliability and I can see its value more for quick repositioning. Even if you improve, vs a Bismarck, Monarch or Roma, if your ship just does not have the penetration or cannot outspot them, their defense strengths remain.

 

Not that I find it terribly hard to hit things with the other three BBs. Played them, they are not NC levels of consistent, but I'd certainly deem the bad reputation they get to be vastly overblown in terms of gun characteristics. Only Roma comes close to deserving it with her tendency to overpenetrate, so I would guess Richelieu isn't lacking in potency. Fast shells, while making not for accurate shells (other extreme are T8 USN BBs) do cut down reaction time of targets at least, so it's not all as bad just because shot patterns are less consistent. However personally, if I had to pick one of the four BBs to play, I'd likely go with Bismarck if CVs are a non-issue and Monarch if they are (in terms of AA, competent CVs will hardly give a damn regardless of which of the ships you use, except Roma is free to be molested even by terrible CV players. Thus I rate Monarch's immunity to AP cits higher than the bit of extra AA Richelieu might enjoy). I do think that in the end it must be highlighted that Richelieu by a fair margin is the worst AP dpm on a BB in T8 (incidentily also with the most impactful loss of firepower if a turret gets knocked out) while the much maligned Monarch has the best, by a fair margin over the other 3 (and beating Amagi). Even just using its two front turrets, Monarch isn't far behind Richelieu using all its guns (in case people want to point out the rear turret angle, though often enough you get to use three turrets) in terms of AP and obviously outperforms Richelieu in HE.

[ollonborre]

1 hour ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

 

There is exactly nothing though that indicates Richelieu having better accuracy than Bismarck or Monarch. Same sigma across the board, same horizontal dispersion as Bismarck, worse than Monarch, certainly not better vertical dispersion, given that value depends on shell velocity, where Richelieu about matches Monarch's shell velocity, outperforms Bismarck and is only surpassed by a significant margin by Roma (which with the highest shell velocity produces the most inconsistent shot patterns).

And yet I have the highest hitratio in the Richelieu out of all my tier 8 BB's. Like I said for me the Riche just works and I found the guns very reliable and comfortable to use. I'm aware of all its faults and gimmicks and yet it is just a solid BB that I perform really well in.

[HaachamaShipping]

8 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

And yet I have the highest hitratio in the Richelieu out of all my tier 8 BB's. Like I said for me the Riche just works and I found the guns very reliable and comfortable to use. I'm aware of all its faults and gimmicks and yet it is just a solid BB that I perform really well in.

While I won't question your personal opinion that Richelieu fits your style, I'd like to point out that hit ratio is not a very straightforward stat. For example, my highest hit ratio in any T7 BB is in Gneisenau. Now, I'm never going to claim that Gneisenau is the most accurate BB at T7. However, Gneisenau has the worst dpm values of any T7 BB, thus when playing it, I have to take extra care to make sure to land my shells. Richelieu also has basically the lowest AP dpm and second-lowest HE dpm of T8 BBs. So, it's a given that you need to land more shells to get anywhere. Similarly, looking at my personal T8 BB stats, highest hit ratio is Roma and noone ever claimed (for good reason) that Roma is in any way accurate. 

[piritskenyer]

All three of them have 1.8 sigma value and their dispersion at max range (in brackets) is as follows: Richelieu: 314m (25.27), Bismarck: 274m (21.21) and Monarch 242m (18.15). Reduced to 15km their dispersion is as follows: 168.39, 193.78 and 200 respectively. So all in all, mathematically, Richie is more accurate than Bisko or Monarch.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

All three of them have 1.8 sigma value and their dispersion at max range (in brackets) is as follows: Richelieu: 314m (25.27), Bismarck: 274m (21.21) and Monarch 242m (18.15). Reduced to 15km their dispersion is as follows: 168.39, 193.78 and 200 respectively. So all in all, mathematically, Richie is more accurate than Bisko or Monarch.

 

This is not how dispersion works.

 

Richelieu and Bismarck follow the same dispersion, which is calculated as D=Rx9.8+66.

 

Thus, Richelieu ends up with 25.27x9.8+66=313.646 or rounded as 314 m.

Bismarck is 21.21x9.8+66=273.858 or rounded as 274 m.

 

Obviously at 15 km both get 15x9.8+66=213, so 213 m dispersion.

 

Monarch meanwhile follows the British/USN dispersion which is calculated as D=Rx10+60.

 

Thus Monarch gets 18.15x10+60=241.5 or rounded 242 m.

 

At 15 km, this works out to 15x10+60, so 210 m of dispersion.

 

So, no, at 15 km Monarch is actually the most accurate among them all.

 

Source

[piritskenyer]

5 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

This is not how dispersion works.

 

Richelieu and Bismarck follow the same dispersion, which is calculated as D=Rx9.8+66.

 

Thus, Richelieu ends up with 25.27x9.8+66=313.646 or rounded as 314 m.

Bismarck is 21.21x9.8+66=273.858 or rounded as 274 m.

 

Obviously at 15 km both get 15x9.8+66=213, so 213 m dispersion.

 

Monarch meanwhile follows the British/USN dispersion which is calculated as D=Rx10+60.

 

Thus Monarch gets 18.15x10+60=241.5 or rounded 242 m.

 

At 15 km, this works out to 15x10+60, so 210 m of dispersion.

 

So, no, at 15 km Monarch is actually the most accurate among them all.

 

Source

 

Interesting. 1) thank you for pointing that out. 2) based on feel, Richie is still more accurate for me than was bisko or monarch. I don't even have a valid explanation as to why anymore.

[HaachamaShipping]

5 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Interesting. 1) thank you for pointing that out. 2) based on feel, Richie is still more accurate for me than was bisko or monarch. I don't even have a valid explanation as to why anymore.

No prob, though I can't help with feelings.

[GulvkluderGuld]

6 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

 

There is exactly nothing though that indicates Richelieu having better accuracy than Bismarck or Monarch. Same sigma across the board, same horizontal dispersion as Bismarck, worse than Monarch, certainly not better vertical dispersion, given that value depends on shell velocity, where Richelieu about matches Monarch's shell velocity, outperforms Bismarck and is only surpassed by a significant margin by Roma (which with the highest shell velocity produces the most inconsistent shot patterns).

 

As said, I haven't played Richelieu,

That is probably true, but the layout of the guns matters since quantity has a quality of its own .

8 guns  facing forward means you can bowtank and shoot as many guns as a bismarck or (almost) monarch giving broadside (both have awful turret angles)

Dispersion may be the same, but more shells = more hits. 

 

Additional fun fact: bowtanking BBs take a lot less dmg from AP than broadsiding ones.

Additional fun fact 2: speedboost reversing behind islands is stupidly fast and effective as is kiting away and juggling speed. This ship can throw off the aim of red team like no other.

 

1 hour ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Interesting. 1) thank you for pointing that out. 2) based on feel, Richie is still more accurate for me than was bisko or monarch. I don't even have a valid explanation as to why anymore.

Shooting 8 guns on target every volley compared to sometimes only 6 / 4 tends to produce more hits.

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

That is probably true, but the layout of the guns matters since quantity has a quality of its own .

8 guns  facing forward means you can bowtank and shoot as many guns as a bismarck or (almost) monarch giving broadside (both have awful turret angles)

Dispersion may be the same, but more shells = more hits. 

 

Additional fun fact: bowtanking BBs take a lot less dmg from AP than broadsiding ones.

Additional fun fact 2: speedboost reversing behind islands is stupidly fast and effective as is kiting away and juggling speed. This ship can throw off the aim of red team like no other.

Monarch fires almost as many shells per minute with only its forward turrets than Richelieu does with all its guns, BUT has the option to add a rear turret to just utterly out-dpm the Richelieu. Obviously if you ever are reduced to HE, because good knows, you need to kill a DD or another bow-camper, Monarch obviously outperforms Richelieu with only its front guns.

 

Additional fun fact: Ships that can go dark take far less damage from anything than permaspotted ones.

[GulvkluderGuld]

46 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Monarch fires almost as many shells per minute with only its forward turrets than Richelieu does with all its guns, BUT has the option to add a rear turret to just utterly out-dpm the Richelieu. Obviously if you ever are reduced to HE, because good knows, you need to kill a DD or another bow-camper, Monarch obviously outperforms Richelieu with only its front guns.

 

Additional fun fact: Ships that can go dark take far less damage from anything than permaspotted ones.

Monarch using all guns consistently is often a nightmare and a case of "nice in theory, but doesn't work in practice".

I hated the thing, so that may be colouring my opinion, but what i found is it either stays broadside on and get rekt, or zig-zags in which case it loses out on dpm (Turret angles and traverse is awful). 

 

Anyhow, we were discussing why richeleu tends to produce more consistent volleys = true or impression of apparent better dispersion.  Here's my theory.

Having better reload and fewer guns will tend to produce more volleys with less shots in them and thus less consistency (Monarch)

In contrast, more guns loading slower will lead to fewer but more consistent volleys, since the chance some shells go where they are aimed is higher (Richeleu)

 

As to fun facts: was only pointing out an additional advantage of the turret layout.

Sure Monarch may be able to go dark (CV says Hi!), bit fighting from much further away will mean much worse dispersion too. Those are two much different playstyles.

Also you'll be surprised how may HE volleys Richeleu is able to juke in a Bow-camp fight thanks to speedboost, so I wouldn't be so sure that slight (and not very obvious) HE dpm advantage is really enough.

Going by server stats (wows-numbers because i'm lazy), Richeleu seems to be the best performing silver tier 8 BB across all stats and player skill groups (excluding Vladivostok). Obviously Monarch buffs could change that.

 

 

 

[MRGTB]

On 5/21/2019 at 10:32 PM, CPL_Sivi said:

Is Richelieu sister ship of JB? Because i find JB best brawler out there. Yesterday 40k salvo on Montana, 35k salvo on musashi.  My record salvo is 60k on broadside musashi. Today 3 cits on hindenburg at 15 km. Richelieu should have the same guns with same shells and pen values if im not mistaken. I realy dont see any problems with those french 380s. My main issue is he spam. JB is very alergic to he spam

If I'm right, JB has the exact same guns as Alice. Just that Alice has the extra 3 guns on the rear of the ship

[HaachamaShipping]

15 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Anyhow, we were discussing why richeleu tends to produce more consistent volleys = true or impression of apparent dispersion.  Here's my theory.

Having better reload and fewer guns will tend to produce more volleys with less shots in them and thus less consistency.

In contrast, more guns loading slower will lead to fewer but more consistent volleys, since the chance some shells go where they are aimed is higher.

That is not how dispersion works. It goes per shell, not per volley, which is why you get at times those jackpot shots where everything hits and sometimes nothing hits in ships.

18 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

As to fun facts: was only pointing out an additional advantage of the turret layout. Sure Monarch may be able to go dark (CV says Hi!), bit fighting from much further away will mean much worse dispersion too. 

Going by server stats (wows-numbers because i'm lazy), Richeleu seems to be the best performing silver tier 8 BB across all stats and player skill groups (excluding Vladivostok). Obviously Monarch buffs could change that.

By server stats, Monarch is the second-best performing BB of all tech tree BBs atm. Yet people question its ability to perform all the time. NC meanwhile is at the very bottom. It's hard to make sense of those values.

[MRGTB]

NC does take citadels easy when showing enemy broadside, most know that's the ships big weakness. Probably why is doesn't perform that well, not really a durable ship armour wise because it. Monarch is a bit more durable and has the decent fire starting HE shells to farm damage better over a match.

[GulvkluderGuld]

18 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

That is not how dispersion works. It goes per shell, not per volley, which is why you get at times those jackpot shots where everything hits and sometimes nothing hits in ships.

I might've formulated that poorly. Simply put, 8 shells has a bigger chance of scoring a hit than 6.

Thus a volley of 8 shells will more often land a hit than a volley of 6 shells. 

 

Richeleu appears to have better dispersion because the volleys are more consistent.

[CPL_Sivi]

20190524_173113_PFSB518-Jean-Bart_19_OC_prey.wowsreplay

 

This is what i was talking about. Butchering the mother of all battleships with JB comes naturaly for this family of boats. If u have the time first 6-7 mins are relevant, using land to mask approach, quick 2 salvos and the flank is practicaly secured if not broken. Henry and Vostok played important role drawing fire while JB waits for his 11 secs. Daring also occupied 52 that failed to spot approach to a key position. Richie is able to do the same as JB but without reload boost. Also positioning of turrets is a big plus, all guns mounted forward minimize the return dmg, a feature that both JB and Richie share. With all the crappy armor of JB, Yamato had no chance. I know every1 will say that yamato made a mistake but actualy he didnt. He had no intel what was behind that corner, he had Vostok and Henry spotted and Daring was dead or close to it, minotaur falling back. Naturaly he tried to tank and push the flank being certain that they have number and firepower advantage, especialy after red Montana joined the flank. After yamato fell, everything turned, Monty and Bis took a 180 turn, Salem fought bravely but in vain, cap secured and superior enemy pushed back. 

Now i try to put any other BB in that position and fail to see such effectivness. FDG cant bear all 8 guns without giving side, return fire would wreck it cit or no cit, GK has the same problem, any other BB can bear only 6 guns at most if angled to protect itself. But probably cant make that approach without being spotted. Speed and agility made that possible. Nearly got proximity detection from 52 but manage to avoid it again due to agility, and some luck.

I admit it was not the smartest move, pushing so far into superior force with such a fragile ship and so early in the match. Actualy its kinda dumb when i think of it now. But it was something that saved the flank, and win like this against the odds is something that makes me go on with the game. Sharing the key features, JB and Richie are supposed to support same playstyle and have similar results. Atleast thats what theory tells me when i think of it.

[CPL_Sivi]

double post...srry

[Bistoufly1961]

Richelieu is pure crap. Bowtanking is the only way to survive but you won t make damage thus you don t help your team doing so. Playing Lyon, Normandie and Bretagne has real interest and you have lots of fun, but i don t understand why Richelieu is so underpower regarding lower tier french Battleships.

AA is good nevertheless, and speed is nice, but that s poor advantages to me. When i get to close of ennemies, my principal guns get destroyed and game is over. If i fire from a too far position, i survive but i make low damages and game is lost since you are useless to your team. If you want to play Richelieu, be sure that you don t give advantage to your team and your team members will have to be very wise if you wish to have a chance to win the match.

[Arrive_Alive]

7 hours ago, Bistoufly1961 said:

Richelieu is pure crap. Bowtanking is the only way to survive but you won t make damage thus you don t help your team doing so. Playing Lyon, Normandie and Bretagne has real interest and you have lots of fun, but i don t understand why Richelieu is so underpower regarding lower tier french Battleships.

AA is good nevertheless, and speed is nice, but that s poor advantages to me. When i get to close of ennemies, my principal guns get destroyed and game is over. If i fire from a too far position, i survive but i make low damages and game is lost since you are useless to your team. If you want to play Richelieu, be sure that you don t give advantage to your team and your team members will have to be very wise if you wish to have a chance to win the match.

 

You can bowtank when you're toptier. Otherwise just play it as a battlecruiser until mid-late game. It's way too squishy to be exposed while bow-tanking. There is no bad french BB from t6 to t10, they're just not very tanky and one should avoid HE spammers. The french 380s are superb guns imo.

[HaachamaShipping]

7 hours ago, Bistoufly1961 said:

Richelieu is pure crap. Bowtanking is the only way to survive but you won t make damage thus you don t help your team doing so. Playing Lyon, Normandie and Bretagne has real interest and you have lots of fun, but i don t understand why Richelieu is so underpower regarding lower tier french Battleships.

AA is good nevertheless, and speed is nice, but that s poor advantages to me. When i get to close of ennemies, my principal guns get destroyed and game is over. If i fire from a too far position, i survive but i make low damages and game is lost since you are useless to your team. If you want to play Richelieu, be sure that you don t give advantage to your team and your team members will have to be very wise if you wish to have a chance to win the match.

Having acquired Richelieu recently, the ship is ok. It isn't the strongest T8 BB. I'd even go as far as to consider it among the worst, if not the worst BB overall, though such sounds way more negative than it really should be. Pretty much all T8 BBs are solid ships, just one has to be the least powerful and to me, Richelieu is that one. Mostly comes down to how I value the strengths and weaknesses of the ship and Richelieu to me is basically the definition of a ship that most of all is fun and not all too powerful. Gunnery-wise, the guns are the worst AP dpm in the game, with the tied worst accuracy with Roma. The turret placement is nice, but wouldn't care too much. Roma's turret angles forward are good enough and stuff like Monarch will win the bow-in contest thanks to HE. Richelieu's survivability is also mediocre and apart from citadel protection among the worst.

 

Richelieu can be strong though, don't get me wrong. It's a flanking opportunist. It has speed, it has derpy high pen guns and it has decent citadel protection, meaning risky maneuvers get less punished. Sitting bow-in throws away much of that, moving around as necessary to catch people in their sides is how you get the most out of Richelieu. It's like the only thing where Richelieu shines, but it's not bad. You couldn't do this in some other ships like Monarch or NC who are too slow and too vulnerable to make risky plays. When I rate these other ships higher than the Richelieu, it's because of dependancy on others to make this work. If you'd for example take away all other BBs and throw the Richelieu against a Monarch, Monarch wins most of the time, because it can outspot, out-dpm and outheal the Richelieu and kill it way before it gets the side. Monarch HE also deals way better with something like 27 mm plating cruisers if necessary and with DDs. Also, Richelieu has insane base range, but having more modest range + spotter plane would be a better deal. Thankfully though, in randoms you have enough team usually to get by with Richelieu.

 

For turret survivability, which can be an issue, watch from where you get shot and inbetween your own shots, angle turrets to make it harder for them to get penned and knocked out. Not necessary all the time, but if you know there's some high pen BB that could shoot your turrets in the side, it may help keep the turrets alive.

 

And you don't need to sit super far back, just limit the amount of incoming firepower. Flamu made a guide on BB positioning a few days ago, featuring Jean Bart and Jean Bart is basically same survivability one tier higher.

Spoiler

 

Note though, as Flamu stated in his third video on BB positioning, don't just nilly-willy run into the center of the map, do it when you know there are people on the flanks already. This is especially important for the French, because if someone has to go flank, French are among the best there, due to having the easiest time to reposition short of Georgia. But the key priority is to create a crossfire, so your superb gun gets an opportunity to shine.

[Ryuuteimaru]

On 6/8/2020 at 12:04 PM, Marble_Eyes said:

 

You can bowtank when you're toptier. Otherwise just play it as a battlecruiser until mid-late game. It's way too squishy to be exposed while bow-tanking. There is no bad french BB from t6 to t10, they're just not very tanky and one should avoid HE spammers. The french 380s are superb guns imo.

 

ER nope I stopped at the Alsace both that ship and the Richelieu are both god awful, crap guns and armor made of cheese.