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Friedrich der Große 183 secondary hits 0 damage.Not acceptable

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Friedrich der Große  183 secondary hits 0 damage. I was fighting Stalingrad and Republique at the same time. Did kill Stalingrad but barely lost the duel against Republique because 0 damage from 183 hits from the secondary guns.

183.thumb.jpg.79cfa70fc40ba3e49a1993887e3f5659.jpg

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they did 12642 fire damage.

 

I do agree tho, the issue is that they aim for the belt armor wich they cant pen. Secondarys really need to aim for the deck.

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16 minutes ago, thiextar said:

they did 12642 fire damage.

 

I do agree tho, the issue is that they aim for the belt armor wich they cant pen. Secondarys really need to aim for the deck.

Might ifhe have helped in this case?

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6 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Might ifhe have helped in this case?

 

Not VS Republique.

 

FDGs 105s won't pen 32mm even with IFHE

The 150mm will pen it either way. 

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2 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Not VS Republique.

 

FDGs 105s won't pen 32mm even with IFHE

The 150mm will pen it either way. 

Well, then I am not sure what you can do. Then again the Reppy is a tier 10 and the FDG a tier 9..

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8 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Well, then I am not sure what you can do. Then again the Reppy is a tier 10 and the FDG a tier 9..

 

No, hold on, correcting myself. 

 

Was FDG 105s buffed at some point? Just double checked, the pen is 25mm on 105s, which means that yes, with IFHE it will pen the 32mm plating.

 

30% of 25 = 7.5

25+7.5 = 32.5

 

I thought it was less than that - did it change?

My bad either way

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2 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

No, hold on, correcting myself. 

 

Was FDG 105s buffed at some point? Just double checked, the pen is 25mm on 105s, which means that yes, with IFHE it will pen the 32mm plating.

 

I thought it was less than that - did it change?

My bad either way

Yeah they changed how secondaries worked awhile ago i think. Not sure when though.

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4 minutes ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

No, hold on, correcting myself. 

 

Was FDG 105s buffed at some point? Just double checked, the pen is 25mm on 105s, which means that yes, with IFHE it will pen the 32mm plating.

 

I thought it was less than that - did it change?

My bad either way

Well in that case IFHE would have helped..Very interesting indeed.

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German secondaries got 1/4 pen some time around the end of 2018, meaning IFHE makes them eat pretty much any non-german BB bowtanker for breakfast. 

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10 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

German secondaries got 1/4 pen some time around the end of 2018, meaning IFHE makes them eat pretty much any non-german BB bowtanker for breakfast. 

Actually I am not entirely sure that 105mm secondaries get that bonus..The 128's, and 150's certainly do, but I don't belive the 105's do. Attaching a screenshot of my Tirpitz as a case in point.

shot-19.04.10_19.50.03-0073.jpg

EDIT2: Most interesting, the FDG's, however, are quoted with 25mm (ie 1/4th) of he pen right off the bat.

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The 1/4 pen on the 105 only apply to the FDG as part of the overall buff package that ship got. The rest of the 105 still has the same 1/6 pen.

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3 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

The 1/4 pen on the 105 only apply to the FDG as part of the overall buff package that ship got. The rest of the 105 still has the same 1/6 pen.

Good to know. :cap_like:

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The Republique would have melted if you had IFHE. 

I do agree that secondaries aiming for the most heavily armoured parts of a ship is silly.

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16 minutes ago, lafeel said:

Actually I am not entirely sure that 105mm secondaries get that bonus..The 128's, and 150's certainly do, but I don't belive the 105's do. Attaching a screenshot of my Tirpitz as a case in point.

shot-19.04.10_19.50.03-0073.jpg

EDIT2: Most interesting, the FDG's, however, are quoted with 25mm (ie 1/4th) of he pen right off the bat.

pardon, it only applied to tier IX and X.

13 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

The 1/4 pen on the 105 only apply to the FDG as part of the overall buff package that ship got. The rest of the 105 still has the same 1/6 pen.

The GK also got the same secondary buff

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14 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

pardon, it only applied to tier IX and X.

The GK also got the same secondary buff

It had it since quite a while back. And the GK does not have 105 mm secondaries :fish_aqua:

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Back when there were AP secondaries, aiming for the belt might have made some sense, since you could citadel Cruisers with it.

But with HE secondaries only now, aiming for the belt is retarded af. It basicly makes Secondaries more useless vs BBs, as their belt armor is bigger compared to Cruisers.

 

I wonder what will happen when they change IFHE (more tradeoff compared to now) :cap_hmm: Might make secondary build BBs even more useless :cap_fainting:

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Isn't strange that the 150 mm secondaries didn't score any damaging hits either, since the Republique is made out or 32 mm outer layer armor? 

 

The 105 mm buff would certainly be a welcome buff for Scharnhorst, Bismarck and Tirpitz. 

 

Have I dreamed it or have anyone else read in some Q&A that they intended to look and possibly overhaul the secondary mechanics? 

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38 minutes ago, affie said:

Have I dreamed it or have anyone else read in some Q&A that they intended to look and possibly overhaul the secondary mechanics? 

 

Fingers crossed. 

 

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As far as I was thinking, secondary build is meme build. It just does not work.

As pointed out damage is from fire mostly and it was 12k damage from 180+ hits.

Complaining that something that shouldn't work, doesn't work, seems to be strange?

 

I run secondary build on both Massachusets, for secondary missions (as it is hit count, not damage done, mostly, and it is only to make mission quick, not that it is good).

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1 hour ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

As far as I was thinking, secondary build is meme build. It just does not work.

As pointed out damage is from fire mostly and it was 12k damage from 180+ hits.

Complaining that something that shouldn't work, doesn't work, seems to be strange?

 

I run secondary build on both Massachusets, for secondary missions (as it is hit count, not damage done, mostly, and it is only to make mission quick, not that it is good).

Yeah, but that's the thing. Making these sec builds more effective for [some] BBs would greatly improve the whole meta in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

As far as I was thinking, secondary build is meme build. It just does not work.

As pointed out damage is from fire mostly and it was 12k damage from 180+ hits.

Complaining that something that shouldn't work, doesn't work, seems to be strange?

 

I run secondary build on both Massachusets, for secondary missions (as it is hit count, not damage done, mostly, and it is only to make mission quick, not that it is good).

Add IFHE to the FDG, GK or Massachusetts and it's a lot more than a meme build. It can be made to work.

I regularly get more secondary and fire damage than AP damage in my GK. I expect I average at more than a third secondary and fire damage.

 

I think the problem is it is a very different style of combat. The GK and FDG need to be close, they have hydro and secondaries to protect you from destroyers.

 

Most battleships should be played very differently 

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If only secondary builds were more cheap (at least 8 points for AFT and Manual Secondaries and 4 points if you pick IFHE) and the secondaries were more useful and reliable, maybe it could be justified to go secondary build ships.

German BBs should get a decent boost to their playability and ships like Bismarck and Tirpitz would receive a much needed help. Then, after the overall improvement of how secondaries work,  we could look from ship to ship and see where to improve. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, FrankvC_Jr said:

If only secondary builds were more cheap (at least 8 points for AFT and Manual Secondaries and 4 points if you pick IFHE) and the secondaries were more useful and reliable, maybe it could be justified to go secondary build ships.

German BBs should get a decent boost to their playability and ships like Bismarck and Tirpitz would receive a much needed help. Then, after the overall improvement of how secondaries work,  we could look from ship to ship and see where to improve. 

 

 

 

Pretty much this, for secondaries to even be decent requires you to place far too many points for something which is, in the end, a situational advantage. 

 

I've said it before, but until things change(if they change) max out survivability and main battery and you won't go wrong. 

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I guess if WG buffed all secondaries to auto aim at non armoured parts then the secondary favourites would all be labelled OP, with that in mind how effective is the Republique's secondary guns, reason I got that ship was so the Alsace could earn me free xp, plus the awesome range of those secondaries, there is nothing more satisfying than when the secondaries open up on something whilst i am concentrating on hitting something else.

 

I wish some Brit BB's had these awesome secondaries, and whilst we are on the subject,the other two lovelies the Tirpitz and the Massachusetts, really how effective are their secondaries for doing anything than providing a pretty nice fireworks display?

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On 4/10/2019 at 7:28 PM, GudmundurG said:

Friedrich der Große  183 secondary hits 0 damage. I was fighting Stalingrad and Republique at the same time. Did kill Stalingrad but barely lost the duel against Republique because 0 damage from 183 hits from the secondary guns.

183.thumb.jpg.79cfa70fc40ba3e49a1993887e3f5659.jpg

 

Ok, first we need details mate like what captain skills you was running.:cap_tea:

 

Remember the FDG got it's 105 mm changed to "German pen rule".

 

IFHE or not? Because that makes a MASSIVE difference regarding pen values.  You go from being able to pen DD's and light cruisers (25 mm max) with your 105mm to penning Heavy Cruisers AND BB's (32mm armour).  The 150 mm can pen 32mm anyway, but with IFHE it can now pen 48mm.  Which doesn't help that much as the next real armour is 50mm, but it's all about helping the 105mm.

 

So your firing 32mm penning HE shots every 2.2 secs just with seondaries? :cap_fainting: Nearly the same as having a Harra strapped to the side of your ship (well, nearly).

 

Basically a Republic will melt with FDG secondary's IFHE as it's covered in 32mm armour (which all Secondary can pen with the FDG if IFHE Spec). 

 

If you are not running IFHE then only your 150 mm will do something and they are slower firing, a lot.

 

So that tells me that you were so close that your shells were pinging off the lower sides of the Republic.  The German Seconds are flatter arcs compared to something like the Massa which loves it's arc's (and great against people camping behind islands). 

 

The secondary spec is always a debate. Is it the best build? No, but the tiers helps and it's still a laugh and when used right, with the stars aligned is quite effective.  Building a BB for tank is a lot better 9/10.  The more you can survive a game and keep your guns firing, the more influential you are.  The more tanky you are, the more shells your absorbing which is helping your cruisers out.

 

Not only that but there is far, far more campy games at tier 9-10. Range increases across the board and people are reluctance to scratch their ship (cost of repairs).  Throw a tier 10 CV and it's makes things worse. However.....

 

The lower the tiers, like the Massa at tier 8, the better.  There are less camp games (more crazy games) and ships like the Massa are quite good in it's own tier or lower with a secondary spec. Because the range isn't as much so you don't automatically burn to death getting into position. Armour values are also less which makes the 127mm more deadly.  However, remember that even with IFHE, you still can not pen 32MM of armour as it doesn't have the 1/4 rule the Germans do! You use IFHE because it crosses the "27mm" threshold so basically the majority of high cruisers you will/might (MM ho ho) face. It's secondaries are for cruiser killing.  Don't think you will melt Battelships with direct damage because unless they are lower teir, you wont.  However, that's why you have very hard hitting main guns.  Keep the main guns on the BB's with the secondaries firing on the cruisers. 

 

The only ships I spec for secondary is the Kurf and the Massa. I have added my ships stats to it, good or bad not bothered, just to add some weight in what I'm saying and how they changed.

 

Kurf

 

13 Großer Kurfürst   Großer Kurfürst 10 Germany 137 56.93% 1 487 89 101 1.17 1.45 Details
  • IFHE it's secondary can nearly pen EVERYTHING.
  • It's physically made to withstand a brawl.  It's built for a brawl with loads of armour and turtleback. hydro too. 
  • Secondary's on the Kurf are quite hard to knock out compared to some BB's.
  • Leg mod makes it even more of a bruiser in close combat. 
  • Captain spec help it's AA too by default.

 

Biggest problem is the Meta, which the Kurf struggles at the moment due it's tier.  If I changed it back to a tank build then all stats would go up, but what the hell, I like at least one secondary build at tier 10 for a laugh and anger management.  :Smile_veryhappy:

 

Massa

 

2 Massachusetts   Massachusetts 8 U.S.A. 70 61.43% 1 849 84 095 1.36 3.7 Details
  • Has to have IFHE to make it work. You can pen cruisers (27mm if I remember) and DD's but still wont be able to pen 32mm armour.  However, at lower tier 6-7-8 that doesn't matter as much.
  • Adds to it's AA which helps alot
  • Arcs can fire over islands (secondary)
  • Deadly aim on the secondary's (got the extra 40% aim by default).  So if you really want to, you don't need the Manual aim captain skill and can put it else were. However, I still use it for giggles. 
  • They are fast firing
  • The quick heal is breed for close combat and bow-on is tanky for a tier 8.

 

What about the Gne? Yes.

 

12 Gneisenau   Gneisenau 7 Germany 97 61.86% 1 691 61 646 1.06 5.08 Details

Loved this ship but many don't because of the lack of guns and the horrible accuracy....And they would be right.  However, their secondary's are the same as the Kurf with the same IFHE rules but with only 8km range max. It's heavy armoured for it's tier and it has torps which is simply lovely.  You want to be in peoples faces with this ship and tier 7 can afford you that, more than say tier 9-10.  Other low tiers BB are slow and this can get you into a brawl quite quickly where the enemy will struggle to even get away.

 

However, i can see why people don't do Second spec as 8km is short (so wish it was longer) and it has torps anyway which kinda negates a secondary build IMHO.  Against lower tier BB's (slow and sluggish) it's a playground bully that just knocks people out at will. 

 

The ones I don't?

 

Republic

 

9 République   République 10 France 74 60.81% 1 341 92 488 1.19 2.66 Details

Tried lots and lots of builds with this one and my conclusions....You can't brawl with 32 mm armour and low HP for a BB.  No spotter plan or hydro for close encounters.  Yes you can be a fire starter, but that's all about RNG and you all know how that rolls.  You have hard hitting, fast firing accurate guns so you better staying alive right until the end.  They give you a speed boast for a reason.  I always seem to catch on fire a lot in this ship so FP is a massive bonus and cant run it with a full secondary spec (because you also want CE).

 

Don't get me wrong, I have done a lot of damage by it's secondary's when spec and the time is right, but both my damage, survival rate and WR increased when I went back to a Tank build.

 

Sharn

 

54 Scharnhorst   Scharnhorst  7 Germany 231 59.74% 1 825 64 908 1.39 2.62 Details

Again, tried lots of builds.  Your secondary's are max 8km and you need to invest a lot of points into it.  You may look hard as nails but YOUR STILL A BATTLECRUSER. So face to face with a dedicated BB and your goanna lose.  However, you have a secrete weapon...Torps.  Why be stand-off with secondary blazing when you can just speed into the danger zone and torp the bugger instead? :cap_tea:Having torps IMHO negates the reason to have secondary's. Because you either go balls deep or you don't. 

 

The Sharn is a nasty cruiser kill with those guns.  So having more accurate guns (Aiming upgrade, not secondary upgrade) will help you a lot better in the long run. The Gne guns cant get any worse really with it so it doesn't matter as much.

 

Sharn: Pistol

Gne: Shotgun

 

Plus the Secondaries with IFHE doesn't afford you anything great.  Only the ability for your 105mm to now pen 19 mm armour, so higher tier DD's...Wow. Really not worth it IMHO. 

 

Apologies if i'm rambling but I just wanna give my option to newer people thinking of spec captains for Secondaries.  There are far better players than and most might disagree, but I wanted to give my "Casual Player" opinion on the matter. :cap_tea:

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