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SmokyButtons

Who remember playing against the old CV

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I have been "hearing" a lot of "flak" about the cv rework?

 

I do, even if you did not meet often,

It was always horrible one sided, 

If you where up against a good Cv player,

Unless you where in a AA blob,

You where dead if the Cv where out for you!

And if you where in a DD, god help you

 

I feel now you have a  chance and even fun against cv! 

 

But how do you remember playing against CV in the old system? 

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In Hood it was sort of OK, but if you were in any other BB you were toast when the CV wanted your butt.

He'd just cross-drop you if he wasn't a total potato. Even if he wasn't: torp spam everywhere.

And he had enough torps to make your life miserable as a cruiser in smoke, too. 

Now if you eat an airplane-torp, mostly you survive. Even two. But not then. 

 

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Laughing manically as I simply push one button to delete all planes. And I still do on the Chinese server.

 

Now it doesn't matter how many buttons I press, the CV gets to :etc_swear: all over me if he's skilled enough.

Good thing I no longer play surface ships and thus can no longer encounter such a scenario.

 

But hey, if you consider this balanced:

On 4/6/2019 at 9:07 PM, El2aZeR said:

 

  Hide contents

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KZ51NBC.jpg

 

 

then there is no helping you I suppose.

And before anyone says "OMG NOT EVERYONE CAN BE SO GOOD", RTS CVs were also only measured by their top players as is clearly evident in this thread. I don't see anyone here complaining about potatoes failing every auto drop as they get their planes wiped by the next best AA ship.

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9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Laughing manically as I simply push one button to delete all planes. And I still do on the Chinese server.

 

Now it doesn't matter how many buttons I press, the CV gets to :etc_swear: all over me if he's skilled enough.

Good thing I no longer play surface ships and thus can no longer encounter such a scenario.

If he was skilled enough, there is the same thing now as before - except NOW I may even survive... well, for a bit.

 

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

But hey, if you consider this balanced:

then there is no helping you I suppose.

I'd consider any ship with YOU in it kinda OP. 

Maybe if I get Hood and you get Yubari, eh... :Smile_trollface:

 

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And before anyone says "OMG NOT EVERYONE CAN BE SO GOOD", RTS CVs were also only measured by their top players as is clearly evident in this thread. I don't see anyone here complaining about potatoes failing every auto drop as they get their planes wiped by the next best AA ship.

Players only complain if they get hurt. Nobody complains about potato food.

Unless that potato food is too much represented on your side. Even then, it may mean: more food for you.

Lately there have been lots of ROFLSTOMPS. At least if you had a potato CV before, he did not kill all the food.

There was plenty left and if the red CV wasn't too savvy, you even might get some before he finished you.

 

Note: If you had a really great RTS one before, you won the game but lost credits anyway because there was nothing left to kill... :Smile_coin:

Getting a player like you in a CV on the team leaves two options:

1. You are on my team: oh man, go have a beer, he can (and will) do it all alone. Will probably end quickly...

2. You are on the red team: hope this ends quickly. Yeah probably it will. Go have a beer.

 

And in the new CVs it is probably similar. But it is the same if you have a really good player in any good ship. 

Except surface ships are a bit slower, so you might actually get some score yourself (if you are on the same team) or live a bit longer.

The consolance, there is always more beer in my fridge, for those occasions. Just drink faster if he's in a CV:cap_like:

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4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

If he was skilled enough, there is the same thing now as before

 

Wrong, by simply letting planes close for a bit before hitting DFAA you could wipe all planes before they could retreat or attack you. There was literally nothing the enemy CV could do to counteract that beyond not attacking you. Ever.

But then again that apparently required too much brainpower for the average player to comprehend. So now it doesn't matter whether you press DFAA or not, you die.

 

On that note btw I've recently seen people waste DFAA on fighters.

Yes.

DFAA.

On the on call fighters.

 

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And in the new CVs it is probably similar.

 

Which would mean nothing has changed, aka the premise of this thread is full of :etc_swear:.

Or am I wrong?

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8 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

If he was skilled enough, there is the same thing now as before - except NOW I may even survive... well, for a bit.

 

I'd consider any ship with YOU in it kinda OP. 

Maybe if I get Hood and you get Yubari, eh... :Smile_trollface:

 

Players only complain if they get hurt. Nobody complains about potato food.

Unless that potato food is too much represented on your side. Even then, it may mean: more food for you.

Lately there have been lots of ROFLSTOMPS. At least if you had a potato CV before, he did not kill all the food.

There was plenty left and if the red CV wasn't too savvy, you even might get some before he finished you.

 

Note: If you had a really great RTS one before, you won the game but lost credits anyway because there was nothing left to kill... :Smile_coin:

Getting a player like you in a CV on the team leaves two options:

1. You are on my team: oh man, go have a beer, he can (and will) do it all alone. Will probably end quickly...

2. You are on the red team: hope this ends quickly. Yeah probably it will. Go have a beer.

 

And in the new CVs it is probably similar. But it is the same if you have a really good player in any good ship. 

Except surface ships are a bit slower, so you might actually get some score yourself (if you are on the same team) or live a bit longer.

The consolance, there is always more beer in my fridge, for those occasions. Just drink faster if he's in a CV:cap_like:

I don't think @El2aZeR earned Papedipupi levels of "prestige" among random folks... yet:Smile_trollface:

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lot of ppl complaining about current CVs, but old ones were way worse... After -20% aerial detection buff DD has good chances evading CV strikes. Though spotting is still a problem... But generally if CV hard focuses me in DD, I can disengage and sail away, so I don't get shot by other ships. CV alone gonna take long time to kill DD, so it turns into my and his time wasted, -1 player in both teams... Annoying but better then it was before, where CV could permaspot DD with single squad and attack with his other squads.

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5 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

CV alone gonna take long time to kill DD

 

Which is why I can kill a DD in less than one and a half minutes into a match. Or how in my last match I killed all 4 enemy DDs after 7 minutes match time.

To put this into perspective, a RTS CV needed 3-4 minutes to fly just a single attack.

 

Again, whatever your experiences with potato CVs don't matter as you're comparing them to the capabilities of the top RTS CV players. When it comes to high level play reworked CVs are laughably more powerful it isn't even a contest.

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4 hours ago, SmokyButtons said:

I have been "hearing" a lot of "flak" about the cv rework?

 

I do, even if you did not meet often,

It was always horrible one sided, 

If you where up against a good Cv player,

Unless you where in a AA blob,

You where dead if the Cv where out for you!

And if you where in a DD, god help you

 

I feel now you have a  chance and even fun against cv! 

 

But how do you remember playing against CV in the old system? 

today all battles been 4 CV's . They spam the spawn after 30 seconds and start killing ships and killing the game

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Vor 16 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

 

Which is why I can kill a DD in less than one and a half minutes into a match. Or how in my last match I killed all 4 enemy DDs after 7 minutes match time.

To put this into perspective, a RTS CV needed 3-4 minutes to fly just a single attack.

 

Again, whatever your experiences with potato CVs don't matter as you're comparing them to the capabilities of the top RTS CV players. When it comes to high level play reworked CVs are laughably more powerful it isn't even a contest.

some DDs with poor handling and big turning circle, like Maass, Harugumo, are more vulnerable to CV strike, but for most DDs there's no problem to avoid torps. Rockets don't deal lot of damage. Bombs hurt... but if you turn AA off, CV has to start bomb strike before he can see DD, so you can just drop your speed and force CV to overshoot you or drop bombs before green circle is tightened, with poor accuracy. Also you gotta time your AA, turn it on when planes are over you and immediately switch off as soon as they leave aerial detection radius, that's a hassle.

 

And how do you know those DDs weren't potatoes? Also it didn't take lot of skill to permaspot DD with a single squad in old RTS.

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12 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

And how do you know those DDs weren't potatoes?

 

Probably because they tried precisely what you suggested.

 

Rockets are used as a reliable finisher unless you're playing Enterprise or RN CVs, which means that once the damage is dealt you are certain to die.

I believe the DD with the best high tier air concealment is the Cossack? Yeah, you still see those way before you can even remotely overshoot them with bombs. In fact you have to fly quite some time inside their air concealment before you can think about attacking and if you just mouse + WASD for a bit it is literally impossible to miss at least in terms of mechanics.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

And before anyone says "OMG NOT EVERYONE CAN BE SO GOOD", RTS CVs were also only measured by their top players as is clearly evident in this thread. I don't see anyone here complaining about potatoes failing every auto drop as they get their planes wiped by the next best AA ship.

 

 

They only hated the RTS part about CVs. Now thats its gone, everything is fine and dandy :cap_old: Also thats why, good RTS CV players got so much hate (because envy), but now potatoes are the measurement to say how "bad" new CVs are.

Hypocrisy all over i suppose :cap_yes:

 

20 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

To put this into perspective, a RTS CV needed 3-4 minutes to fly just a single attack. 

 

Nah, you are wrong, RTS CVs only needed 5-10 seconds to kill any ship they wanted :cap_fainting:

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16 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

some DDs with poor handling and big turning circle, like Maass, Harugumo, are more vulnerable to CV strike, but for most DDs there's no problem to avoid torps. Rockets don't deal lot of damage. Bombs hurt... but if you turn AA off, CV has to start bomb strike before he can see DD, so you can just drop your speed and force CV to overshoot you or drop bombs before green circle is tightened, with poor accuracy. Also you gotta time your AA, turn it on when planes are over you and immediately switch off as soon as they leave aerial detection radius, that's a hassle.

 

And how do you know those DDs weren't potatoes? Also it didn't take lot of skill to permaspot DD with a single squad in old RTS.

I spent 7 minutes not doing anything else but dodging in my cossack. Both CV's did not stop until they've taken me out. THis is [edited] that will drive even more regular ship players away from this mess

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Tbh it was best in closed beta 

Now the new rework is about as unbalanced as it was before the rework happened 

Personally I prefer the new rework but I'm a sucker for faster more easy to play gameplay 

 

Voted for more fun in no cv games as it normally is for me

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Vor 7 Minuten, MrDenDen sagte:

I spent 7 minutes not doing anything else but dodging in my cossack. Both CV's did not stop until they've taken me out. THis is [edited] that will drive even more regular ship players away from this mess

two CV games are very unpredictable for a DD... but at that skill single CV would take 14 min... that's almost whole match chasing one DD... I recently elited lightning and I had maybe 3-4 games where CVs bombed me... all my misplays or situations where I had to evade some DD torps at same time. Dunno, maybe CV skill has gone up since then...

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3 minutes ago, Perekotypole said:

Dunno, maybe CV skill has gone up since then...

 

Last I remember someone proved that average player skill is actually falling. I'd be very surprised if CVs are exempt from that.

Fact remains that a CV can blow a DD out of the water WAY faster than RTS CVs ever could. That potatoes can't do it is irrelevant because they couldn't do it in the RTS iteration either.

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33 minutes ago, MrDenDen said:

I spent 7 minutes not doing anything else but dodging in my cossack. Both CV's did not stop until they've taken me out. THis is [edited] that will drive even more regular ship players away from this mess

Cause you played untership.

 

Either play mino/wooster e.a. or masterrace of course.

 

From reddit

ud9siop2uuq21.jpg

 

I generally avoid this kind of history versus game discussions, but which shipclass was it again that got irrelevant and extinct with carriers?

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Point 1

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Now it doesn't matter how many buttons I press, the CV gets to :etc_swear: all over me if he's skilled enough.

Should this be true, and I am willing to accept the veracity of the statement given the source, it indicates lack of counterplay for a specific play.

Lack of counterplay is lack of balance. Not good. If a player, not a novice or unskilled but above par, has a weapon that you cannot defend against no matter how good you are, the game is seriously flawed.

 

Point 2

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

2. You are on the red team: hope this ends quickly. Yeah probably it will. Go have a beer.

Hope this lasts long so I can learn a thing or two. This way I might (If Point 1 is not true) develop a counter play.

 

Point 3

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I'd be very surprised if CVs are exempt from that.

They are getting better. I am at the receiving end. I could dodge air attacks with very simple maneuvering when it all started. Now I need more sophisticated evasive and defensive actions. When the reworked CV was launched (after the nerf) I had a higher ratio of survival when I was targeted as a DD.  I almost did not care (except for being spotted of course). Now CV attacks are a lot more successful. As my game is getting better CV players are also getting better. The problem arises if the skill threshold described in Point 1 (skilled enough) is low. If this threshold is high it is not a problem. I can and I will develop the necessary skills, techniques and methods to counter the vast majority of players. If it is low, then by default I have to accept stoically my "fate". Which I will not. No one wants to play a game that one cannot win.

 

In brief, if as stipulated by @El2aZeR there is no counterplay against CV players of adequate skill and the majority of players can develop this required level of skill the game is either going to die or will be reworked.  

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Which would mean nothing has changed, aka the premise of this thread is full of :etc_swear:.

Or am I wrong?

Since it's a matter of opinion rather than hard facts, I can merely say how I feel about the issue. And that is...

 

I prefer playing the new CVs over playing the old CVs.

I prefer playing against the new CVs over playing against the new CVs.

The CV matches seem much less one-sided (CV-decided) than they used to. Whether it's due to CVs being less influential, the skill gap being smaller, more players registering in the "middle" skill zone - frankly, I don't care much about that. The CV rework made it both more enjoyable to play CVs (personal opinion) and less frustrating to face them (personal opinion from mostly playing DDs). And yes, there were always matches where all the CVs were so bad that they were irrelevant (a cap slowly turning red and your planes are at its edge already, so could probably go spot that DD? Meh, who cares) - but if they possessed the bare minimum of brainpower, the meaningful counterplay options were much more limited.

 

Currently there are just more CVs and seeing lots of CVs can hurt, especially when you're in a DD that can't boast about good AA. But simply comparing the old CVs to new CVs? I'll take the new ones any day, both from the perspective of the CV and their most vulnerable "prey". If CVs were as rare post-rework as pre-rework (although that would be the greatest failure of the rework if that was the case) the anti-CV people would actually find themselves pretty happy.

...no, wait, who am I kidding, they would just keep whining as always :Smile-_tongue:

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9 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Since it's a matter of opinion rather than hard facts

 

Except top player stats in CVs haven't really changed, haven't they?

E.g. according to most people that I could reach 76% solo WR in RTS Midway, that was me abusing a broken class. But if I can reach 77% solo WR in reworked Midway, that is just me being a unicum?

Am I missing something? :cap_hmm:

 

Match impact of a ship can be quantifiable by simply taking a look at how the top players perform in it, although sadly stat sites do not offer a solo filter for global stats so you're gonna have to do it the hard way.

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2 hours ago, Panocek said:

I don't think @El2aZeR earned Papedipupi levels of "prestige" among random folks... yet:Smile_trollface:

 

Maybe not but he's much better looking and great in the sack.

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3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except top player stats in CVs haven't really changed, haven't they? 

E.g. according to most people that I could reach 76% solo WR in RTS Midway, that was me abusing a broken class. But if I can reach 77% solo WR in reworked Midway, that is just me being a unicum?

Am I missing something? :cap_hmm:

 

Match impact of a ship can be quantifiable by simply taking a look at how the top players perform in it, although sadly stat sites do not offer a solo filter for global stats so you're gonna have to do it the hard way.

There are plenty things you could be missing.

 - Perhaps you're a better player than you used to be.

 - Perhaps players of your caliber just constitute a smaller % of players overall.

 - Perhaps the problem isn't with the best of the best - since they've always been a tiny minority.

 

But my favorite theory is that mostly you're simply wrong about the stats. To your very first sentence I'll answer: actually, yes, they have. At least that's what seems to be the case when you look at the stats.

 

As for you - I can understand where you're coming from. You look at your own stats and say "oh, my solo performance in Midway is in the same ballpark it used to be". And sure, that's clearly the case... but what about some other ships? You don't mention Enterprise where you used to have 84,58% WR over more than a thousand solo battles. You don't talk about Shokaku where you played almost 300 battles and got to nearly 88% solo WR. These are your results in your best (pre-rework) CVs. And sure, Enterprise specifically might not be what she used to be - but show me a single player with more than 100 solo battles in any one post-rework CV with over 80% WR. As for me, I failed to find one. There were a couple with over 100 overal battles and WR over 80% in Hakuryu but when you dig into it you find out that a lot of that was played in a division (plus it's hard to say how much of their record was due to the first week before the first hotfix).

 

Sure, the new CVs are around for a somewhat short of a time. People with 80+% WR over hundreds of battles might yet emerge. Maybe even with 84+% like you in (old) Enterprise or 87+% like you in the old Shokaku. But frankly? I doubt it. There are 2 players on t8 CV leaderboards (30+ battle needed, meaning that every victory means a couple percent points) with 84+%. One has 60 battles and 85% WR, the other 84.48% WR from 58 battles. Both in Lexington. Both of them have solo stats for the ship slightly short of the 84% mark, however. And these are the only two players with these stats, despite high volatility of WR below 100 battles - meaning that he WR can be significantly higher or lower than "deserved". And still these outliers fail to reach 84% WR solo, they need a little push from their division stats.

 

At t10 the best Midway players are just short of 79% WR - and that's not just solo matches either. The number of battles required to be featured is as high as 80 so the volatility is lower but still, no 80+% WR for Midway heroes. Hakuryu has some players with ridiculous WR - but it's hard to say how much of that can be attributed to her pre-first-hotfix state. And even then, taking your Enterprise stats as standard - 84% WR - we're left with just two record holders:

Reis_pt with 109 battles and over 88% WR. Impressive - but solo he played the new Haku 9 times (won 6 times).

Slightly_Obese_Geese with 130 battles and over 85% WR. Solo he played only 26 Haku battles. His WR from them is 88.46% but I think we all can agree that WR from 26 battles isn't very convincing... especially when we can't say for sure if most of them weren't pre-hotfix. It is, in fact, quite likely considering that the player hasn't clocked even one solo Haku match in the last 21 days.

 

There are some more over-achievers (84%+ WR) on t6. One in Roujo (almost 85% from 33 battles), 6 in Ranger (none of them over 35 battles). Of these 8 only 2 achieved that solo:

Gerhom with 34 solo Ranger battles and 85.29% WR

EROMANGA_SENSEI_AOTY with 32 battles and 84.38% WR

Only these two, just barely, managed to surpass 84% in solo WR - despite extreme volatility of WR with the number of battles in 30-35 range.

 

These are THE best stats on EU. The results you were solo-getting with Enterprise and Shokaku? They seem completely impossible to consistently achieve right now. Sure, your stats with midway didn't really suffer. But the best player-ship combinations, when filtered for solo matches, fall short of your Shokaku performance by a significant margin. And using your slightly lower solo WR from Enterprise as a benchmark - there is exactly one player in t6+ CV leaderboards that managed

 - 30 or more solo battles

 - WR the same or better than your solo Enterprise stats

At 85,29% WR and 34 solo battles, losing just one more match would put him way behind your Enterprise WR, however. Well, that's the beauty of calculating WR at 34 battles where every match is worth almost 3%...

Although, admittedely, I could've missed someone, even if their stats are public. After all, I was starting my digging from the leaderboards - perhaps there's some hidden CV solo genius that plays with bad division mates that throw games for him.

 

To sum this up: @El2aZeR, you keep claiming that the best CV players are as powerful as they used to be. But the stats actually seem to disagree with you. The best player-ship combinations from RTS era are just leagues ahead of the best player-ship combinations that we're having now. Your own Enterprise and (especially) Shokaku stats seem like something that will most likely remain forever out of reach of post-rework CV players - not just for these two particular ships but for any CV at all. At the very least for now it doesn't really seem like we have many candidates to reach these heights. So if the results of the top players are really the best measure of the ship's impact... well, it certainly seems like the impact was indeed lowered. Obviously, the class is still young, there was a lot of time for the "old heroes" to emerge so we should give some time to the new ones. But so far this aspect of the rework seems to be at least partially successful.

 

PS: I didn't have the energy to dig through t4 CV stats as well, sorry. Perhaps there are payers with 90% WR and hundreds of matches played in them but I kinda felt like going to t6 was low enough :Smile-_tongue:

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5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

On that note btw I've recently seen people waste DFAA on fighters.

Yes.

DFAA.

On the on call fighters.

Oh I've done that. Shoot down 40 planes when there weren't any carriers meant DFAA for battleship fighters :D

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