DDs low Tier need to be changed

[sgtmarple]

DDs between Tier 4 - 7 need to be changed. Their visibility is way to low and you are to dependeble on your Radar and Hydro Cruisers. Tier 4-7 is meant for learning and grind, DDs are just way to OP on that Tier. If you have Cruisers players who still learning how to use Hydro /Radar you are too dempendable on them as a BB or CV Player to not let DDs pass their lines. Especially in games with 3+ DDs they really have an easy game. I don't blame CV Players for not hunting them, it is not their job, scout yes , hunt no, thats what Cruisers are for. When I see Cruisers players use Radar or Hydro right at the start of the game I know we have lost, I know at the minute 5 mark I will have Torps come out of no where  because another DD slipped the lines.

 

For our Cruisers players, for the love of god, if you see DDs alive and you don't know where they are place yourself between the pathways and your BBs, use your Radar/Hydro to make sure nothing is near and you will have very happy BB players that will gladly push, if DDs are still alive you have to find them. CVs already have enough on their plate and WG made it very clear that DDs are not the CVs responsibility , it is yours the Cruiser player.

[CptBarney]

Ehh play the gaede t-22 and maass, then you might change your mind on that, sure they all capable but they are a lot harder to play due to them being hybrids and cap contesters (cv’s make this very difficult if they are competent enough or more than 1).

 

but yeah i agree with the rest.

[sgtmarple]

Vor 4 Minuten, CptBarney sagte:

Ehh play the gaede t-22 and maass, then you might change your mind on that, sure they all capable but they are a lot harder to play due to them being hybrids and cap contesters (cv’s make this very difficult if they are competent enough or more than 1).

You just mentioned two out of how many? Seriously, I don't doubt that individual DDs might be bad but in general you should be able to hide yourself especially with IJN DDs. Kamikaze, Fubuki , Shinonome  and Isokaze  I see so often behind our lines.

[RAHJAILARI]

On 4/3/2019 at 10:16 AM, sgtmarple said:

...Tier 4-7 is meant for learning ...

Actually... Tiers 1-4 are meant for learning (this is precisely why they have a protected -+1 MM), once you get to Tier 5+ - Sh*t is gonna hit the fan and you will be facing opponents who are +2 tiers higher and MUCH more experienced than you and it is at these times you'd better know the basics (including how to deal with DD's / dodge torps) already. If you don't, there's no shame in it - Happens to everyone. Take a hard look at where it went wrong and go back to Tiers 2-4 to practice some more, then "Try again later". Just like my mobile operator keeps telling me and VOILA soon enough you will be a master, no problem.

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

DDs between Tier 4 - 7 need to be changed. Their visibility is way to low and you are to dependeble on your Radar and Hydro Cruisers. Tier 4-7 is meant for learning and grind, DDs are just way to OP on that Tier. If you have Cruisers players who still learning how to use Hydro /Radar you are too dempendable on them as a BB or CV Player to not let DDs pass their lines. Especially in games with 3+ DDs they really have an easy game. I don't blame CV Players for not hunting them, it is not their job, scout yes , hunt no, thats what Cruisers are for. When I see Cruisers players use Radar or Hydro right at the start of the game I know we have lost, I know at the minute 5 mark I will have Torps come out of no where  because another DD slipped the lines.

 

For our Cruisers players, for the love of god, if you see DDs alive and you don't know where they are place yourself between the pathways and your BBs, use your Radar/Hydro to make sure nothing is near and you will have very happy BB players that will gladly push, if DDs are still alive you have to find them. CVs already have enough on their plate and WG made it very clear that DDs are not the CVs responsibility , it is yours the Cruiser player.

Generally - No, take a look at the DD, many cannot even stealth torp

Specific DD - I suggest to look at their performance before suggesting to make them weaker

 

 

General Hint: DD are easy to counter, learn that on Tier II to IV

And no, WG did not say DD are not the CV responsibility. Maybe talk to good CV players to find out what good CV player do to win matches.

[sgtmarple]

Vor 1 Minute, RAHJAILARI sagte:

Actually... Tiers 1-4 are meant for learning (this is precisely why they have a protected -+1 MM), once you hit Tier 5 - the sh*t will hit the fan and you better already know the basics (including how to deal with DD's / dodhe torps). If you don't, go back to Tiers 2-4 and practice some more.

That pretty much applies to every other class, as I BB I can see how many hits I got, how much damage I did but it doesen't influence the outcome of the performance of another player, it changes the outcome of the game. I can be as good as a BB player as any but if the Cruiser Player [edited] up and I have 5-6 Torps coming at me from from nowhere, it doesen't matter how good I play.

[Linkaex]

DD's are already in such a rough spot atm. 

DD's that go CV hunting lel. That is the reason why teams lose games. Late game sure, early game a big no no 

[DFens_666]

Have you like, played Cruisers on that tier? Radar starts only at T7 for Premium ships only, so lets get that out first. Hydro has a range of 4km shipdetection/3km torpdetection on those tiers except german Cruisers, which have better Hydro.

Ontop of that, Cruisers on those tiers are floating citadels without any armor, they can even overmatch each others bow with AP in certain cases. And the detection is nothing to brag about either...

If you think, Cruisers have nothing better to do than hunt DDs, then you need a reality check inform of playing them yourself. This is a joke what you are saying.

 

The only problem are the premium DDs Kamikaze, Kamikaze R and Fujin, because they have super torps combined with good stealth.

[sgtmarple]

Vor 9 Minuten, ColonelPete sagte:

Generally - No, take a look at the DD, many cannot even stealth torp

Specific DD - I suggest to look at their performance before suggesting to make them weaker

 

 

General Hint: DD are easy to counter, learn that on Tier II to IV

And no, WG did not say DD are not the CV responsibility. Maybe talk to good CV players to find out what good CV player do to win matches.

Yes they did by constantly reducing the visibility by air over and over again. By taking away radar from planes.  Don't compare Tier X games with lower tiers , just don't, it is total different ball game.  I have played enough CV games from Tier 4-8 to know what CVs are supposed to do. I spot DDs but I don't run after them only If I have to but generally alert their presence and move on to better targets , especially if you are not in a USN CV since it will take you the whole game to destroy them.

[CptBarney]

7 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

You just mentioned two out of how many? Seriously, I don't doubt that individual DDs might be bad but in general you should be able to hide yourself especially with IJN DDs. Kamikaze, Fubuki , Shinonome  and Isokaze  I see so often behind our lines.

Maybe but good luck torping anything when you can be spotted from neptune and back, ijn dd’s have good concealment for a reason due to the fact they have terrible guns and cant outgun many dd’s they meet unless you go up the akizuki line.

 

 

[RAHJAILARI]

19 hours ago, sgtmarple said:

That pretty much applies to every other class, as I BB I can see how many hits I got, how much damage I did but it doesen't influence the outcome of the performance of another player, it changes the outcome of the game. I can be as good as a BB player as any but if the Cruiser Player [edited] up and I have 5-6 Torps coming at me from from nowhere, it doesen't matter how good I play.

Well lad, if at that point you did not already anticipate those torps coming you obviously did not play very well. It stands to reason to expect them coming for you next, if your Cruiser / DD screen has been killed off. If you just continue sailing straight on exactly like you did before without taking evasive action and eat torps then it is all your own fault and no-one elses. This is precisely why every time you are seen by the enemy, you will have a notification coming up in your screen saying "Detected". So if you are detected, but don't see anything, you know there is a DD near you. In this case you should immediately change speed and direction (do not wait until you hear the torpedo warning, it will already be too late by then) - Keep it up continuously and they won't easily be able to hit you.

 

Best tip: Try to play a DD yourself and see how easy it really is to evade those torps (because you will suddenly find it very hard to score torp hits no matter what, unless the target BB himself scr*ws up). The fact that you demand general DD nerfs instead of actually learning how to deal with them tells me you can't be that good of a player yet, so best just to keep on practicing and all that'll change...

[sgtmarple]

Vor 18 Minuten, RAHJAILARI sagte:

Well lad, if you did not already anticipate those torps coming you obviously did not play very well. It stands to reason to expect them coming for you next, if your Cruiser / DD screen has been killed off. If you just continue sailing on just like before without taking evasive action and eat torps then it is all your own fault and no-one elses. This is precisely why every time you are seen by the enemy, you will have a notification coming up in your screen saying "Detected". SoiIf you are spotted, but see nothing, you know there is a DD near you, immediate change of speed and direction and keeping it up continuously and they won't easily be able to hit you.

 

Best tip: Try to play a DD yourself and see how easy it is to evade those torps (because you will suddenly find it very hard to score torp hits no matter what, unless the target BB himself scr*ws up). The fact that you demand general DD nerfs instead of actually learning how to deal with them tells me you can't be that good of a player yet, so best just to keep on practicing...

That is the problem, I'm not talking about killed Cruisers, I'm talking about DDs getting through while Cruisers are still alive. The only BB at least at  Tier5,  that can keep up with " WEEE I CAN SHOOT SO FAST GO GO !" Cruisers is the Kondo. Three games in a row I was dodging Torps left and right pinging the DD on the map while I imagned Cruisers players looking at me like " What? What you want me to do?" .  People in this Forum yelled at me to play BB and see how tough it is with all ze planes because I only played CV...well ze planes are not really an issue and I have yet to be killed by a CV .... but god oh mighty DDs are an unholy lovefest to deal with if you have incompetent Cruiser players, which are all of them. ^^

[Cyclops_]

31 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

DDs between Tier 4 - 7 need to be changed. Their visibility is way to low and you are to dependeble on your Radar and Hydro Cruisers. Tier 4-7 is meant for learning and grind, DDs are just way to OP on that Tier. If you have Cruisers players who still learning how to use Hydro /Radar you are too dempendable on them as a BB or CV Player to not let DDs pass their lines. Especially in games with 3+ DDs they really have an easy game. I don't blame CV Players for not hunting them, it is not their job, scout yes , hunt no, thats what Cruisers are for. When I see Cruisers players use Radar or Hydro right at the start of the game I know we have lost, I know at the minute 5 mark I will have Torps come out of no where  because another DD slipped the lines.

 

For our Cruisers players, for the love of god, if you see DDs alive and you don't know where they are place yourself between the pathways and your BBs, use your Radar/Hydro to make sure nothing is near and you will have very happy BB players that will gladly push, if DDs are still alive you have to find them. CVs already have enough on their plate and WG made it very clear that DDs are not the CVs responsibility , it is yours the Cruiser player.

As you play CV’s 70% a f the time I think you need to learn how to play, as it is a CV’s job to spot and basically put a halt to DD movement, so before you start whinging about DD learn to play the CV’s you have correctly.

 

Even better go and play a T7 or T8 DD, there are plenty premiums out and just see how  stupid and un informed your comments are.

 

guess we need a CV Bingo Card.

[sgtmarple]

Gerade eben, Cyclops_ sagte:

As you play CV’s 70% a f the time I think you need to learn how to play, as it is a CV’s job to spot and basically put a halt to DD movement, so before you start whinging about DD learn to play the CV’s you have correctly.

 

Even better go and play a T7 or T8 DD, there are plenty premiums out and just see how  stupid and un informed your comments are.

 

guess we need a CV Bingo Card.

Well, my expierence with DDs was not as a CV player but BB player but I'll make a note of your complain on my invisble typewritter

[Cyclops_]

19 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

Yes they did by constantly reducing the visibility by air over and over again. By taking away radar from planes.  Don't compare Tier X games with lower tiers , just don't, it is total different ball game.  I have played enough CV games from Tier 4-8 to know what CVs are supposed to do. I spot DDs but I don't run after them only If I have to but generally alert their presence and move on to better targets , especially if you are not in a USN CV since it will take you the whole game to destroy them.

Again a totally un informed pile of garbage , would love to play any of my DD against you in your CV it would be so easy to delete you. 

[Cyclops_]

2 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

Well, my expierence with DDs was not as a CV player but BB player but I'll make a note of your complain on my invisble typewritter

P.M.S.L. 

[sgtmarple]

Vor 4 Minuten, Cyclops_ sagte:

Again a totally un informed pile of garbage , would love to play any of my DD against you in your CV it would be so easy to delete you. 

Aww, you are so kawaii , I shall call you Bob and kuddle you.

[Panocek]

39 minutes ago, RAHJAILARI said:

Actually... Tiers 1-4 are meant for learning (this is precisely why they have a protected -+1 MM), once you hit Tier 5+ - Sh*t will hit the fan and you better already know the basics (including how to deal with DD's / dodge torps). If you don't, go back to Tiers 2-4 and practice some more.

And here I thought Tirpitz is best for learning, after all german steel stronk da?

[Linkaex]

Or we can keep it civil. 

 

Having stealth is trait of some DD lines and they need that stealth to operate. They are not all Russian gunboats who can do without. 

When they slip through, the team as a collective has failed somewhere. When a flank collapses you will have the same issues of enemy ships flanking and getting in such position they can make a crossfire. 

 

I see absolutely no reason  to nerf the stealth of DD's as there are already multiple tools to make their job hard. 

[RAHJAILARI]

20 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

That is the problem, I'm not talking about killed Cruisers, I'm talking about DDs getting through while Cruisers are still alive. The only BB at least at 5 that can keep up with " WEEE I CAN SHOOT SO FAST GO GO !" Cruisers is the Kondo. Three games in a row I was dodging Torps left and right pinging the DD on the map while I imagned Cruisers players looking at me like " What? What you want me to do?" .  People in this Forum yelled at me to play BB and see how tough it is with all ze planes because I only played CV...well ze planes are not really an issue and I have yet to be killed by a CV .... but god oh mighty DDs are an unholy fuckfest to deal with if you have incompetent Cruiser players, which are all of them. ^^

Yup yup, so you clearly overextended / Yolo'd to the front of your covering Cruisers? Of course you will be torped and shot to pieces from every direction. What did you expect to happen?

 

Firstly, it is always primarily YOUR OWN RESPONSIBILITY to make sure you stay alive and not anyone else's (others have their own gameplay to worry about and can't always babysit you). While Cruisers (especially CL) are very good at killing DD's. There is not much they can do to save your backside if you are downright suicidal. Also, they cannot be everywhere at once and may have some enemies targeting them as well. So expecting someone else to always fish you out of a bad situation is fallacy of epic proportions, ain't gonna happen. You have play in such a way that you can take care of yourself and not to be a burden to your team.

 

Being in the right position instead of out-of-position is the first skill you have to learn with a BB. And while BB's are slow, it is possible to stay within 5km from the Cruisers (10km from your from DD's), once you plan your movements right. Going flanking in a BB is usually a bad idea, especially if it is a slow one. best plan is to try to stay near the center of the map / action, where the others also are and give them fire support (ALWAYS shoot enemy DD first - While you still see it, not the BB, that is the usual Noob-mistake and will result in you facing up an enemy DD you can't see alone later in the game). Going it alone always exposes you and ensures you can't get any help, when it is needed most.

 

And of course, as for CV play, please read the  excellent tips @Cyclops_ has kindly provided you.

[Cyclops_]

@sgtmarple please, please learn to play your CV’s correctly.

 

1/ The biggest threat to a DD is a CV end of story.

 

2/ ( now please read and inwardly digest) CV are now OP against a DD compared to RTS CV play.

 

3/ To castrate a DD in game, find a DD (not hard when you have planes flying at high speed all over the map)

 

4/ As soon as you spot a DD hit your T key ( i believe that is the correct one ) and drop a fighter squad over him.

 

5/ Your fighter squad will keep you the DD spotted for up to 1 minute i believe. 

 

6/ Now get your bombers or rocket planes and delete the perma spotted DD.

 

7/ now bask n the glory that you can now counter DD in you CV.

[ColonelPete]

36 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

Yes they did by constantly reducing the visibility by air over and over again. By taking away radar from planes.  Don't compare Tier X games with lower tiers , just don't, it is total different ball game.  I have played enough CV games from Tier 4-8 to know what CVs are supposed to do. I spot DDs but I don't run after them only If I have to but generally alert their presence and move on to better targets , especially if you are not in a USN CV since it will take you the whole game to destroy them.

That are your conclusions. That does mean that they are the right ones.

Keep DD spotted and they tend to get sunk. Help a bit to get them sunk quicker and it is even better.

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

Especially in games with 3+ DDs they really have an easy game.

With this sentence alone I can say for sure that you just have no experience with DDs and no idea bout how their gameplay looks. Because, for your information - DDs hate games with 3+ DDs per side because the more DDs there are, the more they get in each other's way.

You can't cap because there's always an enemy DD in every cap as well.

You can't set up a close-range torpedo attack because there are enemy DDs that will spot you.

And when you try torping from afar - chances are that enemy DDs will spot your torps prematurely, even if they don't even actually TRY to screen their teammates.

But surely if you're in a DD-hunter (a DD that's good at killing enemy DDs) you'd love to have plenty prey? Nope, think again: successfully killing an enemy DD still costs you just as much hp AND killing 1/5 enemy DDs makes less of a difference than killing 1/2 AND the enemy DDs might actually be in a group, so even if you're great in a DD duel, a 2v1 or 3v1 situation would be very unfavorable...

 

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

If you have Cruisers players who still learning how to use Hydro /Radar you are too dempendable on them as a BB or CV Player to not let DDs pass their lines.

Hydro is good for spotting torps, not ships. Slipping "through the lines" in a DD is much more difficult (and much less profitable) than you imply. To put it simply, if it's done in the open water then even the stealthiest of DDs can't actually get through the lines - they can go around the lines or through a gaping hole in the lines. Even if a DD has, say, 5km concealment radius, to "get through the lines" such a DD would need a hole more than 10km wide. And no sane DD would actually attempt that with only this much room.

Now, as for CVs - a CV that gets ship-spotted receives a notification about this and when that happens, finding the offender really isn't that much of a problem.

As for BBs - not sailing in straight lines mitigates the damage taken a lot. And when you position poorly and get caught alone in a BB - you usually can still at least retreat, making torpedo attack on you mostly irrelevant, especially considering that low and mid-tier torps have poor range, poor speed or both.

 

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

When I see Cruisers players use Radar or Hydro right at the start of the game I know we have lost, I know at the minute 5 mark I will have Torps come out of no where  because another DD slipped the lines.

If the enemy DDs are actually attempting to get behind the enemy lines, it usually means that they are poor DD players and aren't of much threat to the team that isn't completely braindead. What you really need to worry about is torps launched from the front and from the side - and looking at the map and realizing the potential torping angles would help a lot. Try moving in your BB a bit instead of doing an AFK-er impersonation. Also try playing DDs a bit to realize when and where they like to go and how they like to use their torps - this will help you predict the threats and either avoid them or minimize the impact. Sure, sometimes you might eat a lucky salvo even when not making any big mistakes - just like sometimes you can citadel a cruiser that isn't just showing the broadside like a moron. There is some luck involved in this game. But overall, it's not that hard to deal with torps on medium tiers.

 

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

For our Cruisers players, for the love of god, if you see DDs alive and you don't know where they are place yourself between the pathways and your BBs

Oh, yes, they should place themselves between the BBs and potentially incoming DDs/torps. This means: in open water, in the front line. Since you play BBs, let me ask you: what do you do when you see an enemy cruiser in open water, closer to you than the enemy BBs? Do you keep shooting at the bow-tanking or angled BBs behind that cruiser?

 

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

use your Radar/Hydro to make sure nothing is near and you will have very happy BB players that will gladly push

So... BBs will gladly push... if there's a friendly cruiser between them and the enemy to tank for them? Oh, that cruiser will be so happy to see that

Because if it's screening, that's something done by DDs rather than cruisers. A DD, yes, can sit between the friendly and enemy lines, making sure that the enemy DDs don't approach too closely undetected... problem is: practice shows that BBs still don't "gladly push". They gladly sit back and fire at targets of opportunity, happy to be mostly safe from enemy DDs (due to screening) and everything else (due to keeping them at LONG range).

 

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

if DDs are still alive you have to find them

Even radar cruisers don't normally go "finding" DDs. They counter DDs but going to look for them is mostly suicidal unless almost everything else is dead already. Cruisers are squishy.

 

1 hour ago, sgtmarple said:

CVs already have enough on their plate and WG made it very clear that DDs are not the CVs responsibility , it is yours the Cruiser player.

CVs were overly powerful against DDs. The nerfs were heavy and some of them weren't the right nerfs, but CVs still remain very powerful against DDs because - even after all the nerfs - CVs are the only class (other than CVs) that actually can actively go looking for DDs. It's often not very efficient but they can do that. And then there are the USN CVs with HE bombs that are ridiculously powerful against DDs (part of why I say that the nerfs were badly done, heavily nerfing anti-DD performance of the dedicated weapon that are rockets while leaving the supposedly more universal HE bombs as an absolute nightmare to DDs when the CV knows how to use this particular weapon).

 

Overall, you seem like a BB-only player that has very limited understanding of role, strengths and weaknesses of every other class. Surprising considering that (yeah, I looked it up after having written the post up to this point) your most played (in Randoms) class are actually the CVs. Anyway, you seem to be in dire need of some DD and cruiser experience (to know what you can and can't expect from them and why). As for CVs, remember to be vigilant of the "carrier spotted by ship" icon AND try not to sit too far behind the friendly fleet - so that if some DD goes chasing you around the map, they won't find you in your spawn, won't find you on the map edge AND won't be able to ambush you so far from the fleet that you can't count on their help and are forced to try and kill the DD yourself (instead of mostly just adding a bit of damage on top of what your allies can deal thanks to you spotting your pursuer).

[Bear__Necessities]

Clemson. Can’t stealth torp.

Nicholas. Can’t stealth torp.

Farragut. Can’t stealtb torp.

Minikaze. Already been nerfed so yeah...

Mutsuki. Awful guns.

Hatsuharu. Awful guns.

T-22 is not stealthy.

The russians are not stealthy with very short range torps. 

RN have slow speed and can’t stealth torp till Jervis.

All have pretty poor AA other than maybe Farragut so easy pickings for CV’s. All have low HP pools so are easy for cruisers to murder and very few have truly powerful torps that can blap a BB in one full set.

 

I also note that you have almost no games in DD’s so have no real experience or any weight of validity. 

 

To summerise. “I’m not good, please nerf so I can have it easy”.

 

That is all. Case closed and thread no longer needed.

[Cyclops_]

@eliastion, actually @sgtmarple plays CV 70% of the time according to his stats.