Let's talk about the water

[CombustibleSideburns]

 

As of now all waters in WoWs are flat as a pan bottom. To me this not only a major disappointment in regards to the gaming atmosphere but also a shortcoming in the depth of the gaming.

 

Let me explain

First of all a map like North shows all signs of foul weather, even storms. And your sea shows no swell at all but looks like your average garden pond. Not very convincing.

 

Regarding the game mechanics I feel that it might be matter of game design, why Wargaming abstained to model swell, wake or waves and that is because of the added dimensions the player has to think of. And I feel this is short sighted.

Of course a ship moving over waves would be a problematic target, as it is not only moving along a horizontal axis (as it is right now), but also along a vertical axis and even rolling along it’s longitudinal axis. The roll from star to port is also a problem for an aiming player, although I believe one could get away with an aiming mechanism as in WoT, where you don’t have to calculate the ballistic curve of your gun.

 

So if we suppose that swell would be a minor problem for a shooting player’s own ship, it would be a challenge to hit a target moving over waves. But as most of us experienced in WoT, targets moving along a horizontal axis are not too big a problem. (Although I have to admit that an enemy tank climbing a hill might be somewhat easier to calculate than a ship’s bow rising over a wave).

 

But the greatest benefit of moving seas would be a bigger variety in maps. Of course you might find a flat sea in a norwegian fjord or in the bays of Scapa Flow, but you might have somewhat moving seas in Baltic or Mediterranean and seriously rough waters on the North Cape. And with the exception of some scattered islands on the maps one would have to admit that all maps play quite similar right now.

 

Matter of fact: Give us waves, Wargaming. You know you want to.

 

[Muffins_Are_People_Too]

I like flat sea

 

[AgarwaenME]

A large ship won't be much of a problem as a target due to heavy seas, as besides destroyers and the smallest cruisers they will cut through most of it. What will be troublesome is aiming as even a small difference on your end could mean hundreds of meters on the other end.

[Diskoklaus]

A large ship won't be much of a problem as a target due to heavy seas, as besides destroyers and the smallest cruisers they will cut through most of it. What will be troublesome is aiming as even a small difference on your end could mean hundreds of meters on the other end.

 

Aiming in rough sea wont be a problem, because the vertical alignment of the guns is already done automatically.

[HE_magnet]

Since i have played this game i always thought that it needed another dimention,..as it stands now you have left,right,fast and slow,hide behind/use the island and thats it!!

 

The skill in the game is judged by knowing your strengths and your opponants weakness (Same as WOT) with the aim of playing your 'Strength' against the opponants 'weakness' with a fair bit of aiming skill involved..

 

..Tho i love this game i thought it is missing that certain something to make it 'Special'!!?....I do know that if you are looking for that certain 'Realism' you should look for simulaters and not this game but i still feel there is something

missing from WG,s WOW final product???...HMMMM!!

 

 

I honestly think that weather/Fog banks and sea swells/currents/Storms is the answer for that missing dimention?? ..And would best be implemented on 'Open sea'Maps ??....So i think we need to see more of them??..

[Jexter]

Swell & rough sea would be really nice.

For starters, it would add visual aesthetics and provide better immersion (no pun intended).

It would also likely affect close combat, where the roll and up&down bob would make aiming more difficult or borderline impossible at times (cf. the effect of rough seas in Naval Action for implementation).

Finally, it could partly solve torpedo detection issues by making torpedoes harder to detect in swell/rough seas (IF detection could be implemented depending on torpedo depth).

 

Fog banks & rain could play a role by reducing visibilty by a given factor, forcing the engagement at closer ranges than usual. Again it could/should impact torpedo detection range.

 

I'd also add time of day into the mix, with variable visibility depending on a battle happening at noon, dusk, dawn, or night-time (with or without moonlight as an extra option). Imagine the visual eyegasm procured by naval gun muzzle flashes at night.

 

All put together, you could have dynamic weather/time of day conditions, adding more variety to existing maps. Obviously some maps would need some redesign, and some dynamic conditions could be limited to certain maps only.

 

[GrimWristler]

This topic has been mentioned on the forums before.

The biggest factor is the difference between what is an arcade from a simulator style game. clearly WG is for arcade gaming, as WOT is simple to play, and WOWP's is ..... Terrible. lol. Its their target audience for an arcade style gameplay.

Alot of WG's fanbase moved onto warthunder after the release of WOWP's, and many drifted away from WOT when warthunder brought out the tanks stuff, simply because warthunder had more realism, aswell as striking that balance for both audiences. not to say WOT and WOWP isnt popular.

 

Having played warthunder, there is a big difference between arcade and realistic, where a planes wing will fall off, if pulling too much "G", where as arcade is for shits and giggles. Alot of people would find wings falling off your plane "annoying" where fun can deteriorate fast. Thats where the water in WOWS's come in. how annoying would it be if you couldnt hit a ship for over 10-15minutes?

theres an arguement here that most dont like realism because its "too hard" even to the point of forcing a player to use a joystick instead of mouse and keyboard or controller. Its that arguement that takes WG out of the equation for bumpy seas and swells. By including bumpy moving swells, your multiplying the time it takes for 1 battle to end, given that aiming has drastically become a challenge and ships will naturally become harder and slower to kill. would players find that fun, shooting at 1 ship for 10-15minutes? some might, but after a while i can see how it may get annoying.

 

I think this game is definately missing rough seas, and having seen youtube vids of gameplay. aiming seem far too easy and laid back. the gameplay does rely on eyecandy to keep it moving, since the gameplay can be very slow, unless in a destroyer or dodging torps. But as ive described above. How many people would lose interest, having rough seas, that drastically changes the entire game? It would change everything balance wise.

I mean. as you have stated. the ships will move on all axis simultaniously, while also being flung around by the movement and swell of the waves. It would look AMAZING, but from a gameplay perspective, i think standard ships may well lose their appeal, and people would start using only destroyers for torpedoes, and aircraft carriers for air. Just because aiming may well become too difficult.

 

II think the only alternative, to not having sea swells is perhaps to wait until warthunder's ship installment gets released. I dont know if sea interference will happen in warthunder, but maybe.

[The_Kreigsmarine]

So far I think they've nailed the water considering plain look. The sea parting when the ship comes in looks fantastic, and the bubbles make it even better. However, I completely agree that they NEED to add some dynamics. Even in maps where the sky is practically raging and there are lightning strikes the sea is flat as a plain. Its the only "graphical" part of the game they haven't got yet. But its impossible to be too critical of Wargaming because it IS still Beta. Im sure they plan on introducing more water dynamics soon.

[daki]

While I fully support the idea of rough seas as visual effect, I am afraid that it would add an additional randomness which would break the gameplay. When added to an already existing RNG element related gun dispersion, shooting would end depending too much on random factors completely outside the ability of a player to predict them.

Lets be honest, no one would be able to predict the vertical movements due to rough seas.

I can only imagine the rage&whine it would create here on forums

If adjustments to aiming mechanics are made to compensate as response, then we end up with vertical movements due to rough seas being again just a visual effect in essence.

In other words, existing aiming mechanics are working, so why fix them if they are not broken 

 

I fully agree that the game needs more depth, but it should not be achieved by introducing overly complex mechanics which make the game less accessible.

Additional depth should come from new and improved game modes, maps, graphics...

 

[Coenraad]

More waves would lead to allot of clipping wich would not look all that great.
To aviavoid clipping they would need more complex water simulation wich in turn would increase system requirements by a fair bit.
I can see them a little higher waves, but not waves so high they go over parts of the ship.

 

Btw this is cbt so doubt it is high priority. So many other things to do before that. 

[Historynerd]

I think I agree with those who are of the opinion that this feature would have a huge effect on gameplay, and probably further augment system requirements.

 

I can understand and emphatize with a desire for more "realism" and more "depth", but I'm afraid that this clashes with other considerations that make it unlikely that this is going to get implemented.

[DestoryerO_o]

I play mostly DDs, and tho i know i wouldn't hit S*** while my Ship is rolling through big swells,

i would greatly enjoy seeing them splash over my DD's front deck and pour back into the sea 

[Historynerd]

I play mostly DDs, and tho i know i wouldn't hit S*** while my Ship is rolling through big swells, i would greatly enjoy seeing them splash over my DD's front deck and pour back into the sea 

 

There are many DDs that in those conditions wouldn't be able to fire torpedoes... 

[Long_One]

Rough seas, weather conditions, limited visibility and so on, all those things would add welcomed element of realism and depth, but... What this game needs first is a truckload of players, to keep it alive and fill MM queues. And everything that makes a game "harder" is going to deter "playing masses". One of the reasons that caused WoWp failure (imho) was the third dimension in air combat (I've seen people unable to hit ground target without crashing their planes) - just too much to comprehend for many. WoWs needs to be noob-friendly at the beginning - we need those noobs, they may be infuriating, but they are necessary. And after securing solid player base, it would be nice to see "realistic"-mode added for those, who want more. Moreover, WoWs has no competition at this moment, so implementing "realistic"-mode could fill this particular market niche before some other company does it with half-cooked product.

[Ectar_]

Water effects and weather effects is something that is being considered whilst we make sure we can implement it properly. Consider that with story/choppy water your aiming of your guns is really really going to go suffer badly.  It's why ships don't sit lower in the water when you take flooding damage.  Each ships's guns are zero'd/levelled based on their position on the hull, when you change that height it will have a drastic affect on where your aiming cursor lies as the shells won't be heading for that area.

 

Another thing to consider for a moment is how hard it is to land most of your shot as it is now, and then think about what it would be like trying to time your shots between waves hitting your ship (and that's hoping the waves are coming straight at you, never mind hitting the ship from port or starboard)...  It could be cool for a sense of realism, but for gameplay it would be a different matter.

[HE_magnet]

Tho i agree that if weather was implemented in the game it could change many things and put newer players off...But in my eyes only if it is implemented wrong by WG..

 

 

My thoughts;...

 

 

For a start i would only introduce it from Tier 5 up where most of the 'Hardcore' players would appreciate a bit more of a challange..

 

SMALL FOG BANKS; ...Could be used to hide in or retreat into or set ambushes from? (Cammo ratings and ship vis on both parties should be equal and adjusted accordingly so as not to make DD,s OP  when they are in them)...

Could bring real upclose close fighting battles for those that hide in them/Attack them??...

 

SEA SWELLS/STORMS;...Could be implemented in '3 wave' increments and the some calm (Mabye 20-30 seconds so shots need to be 'Timed' as well as aimed??)....Also if you steer into the waves the heavier of the ships

would not be affected as much due to their displacement??....So the ship direction would then become a factor as it would limit/Promote the amount of guns available to fire....The attackers of defenders would have to consider

their angle of attack??..

 

STRONG CURRENTS; ...Could be used mabye on map flanks with both teams having the equal option to use them?......Consider a 10 knot current??..This would make a 30 knot ship go 40 knots one way but only 20 knots 

the other way??...These can be marked/seen on the minimap??

 

RAINSTORM;...Would reduce vis and cammo for every ship equally (Would promote closer engagements/Brawling) if done right??

 

 

...Just a few but like i say could work if done right without ruining game balance as the weather conditions would affect all ships equally...

[PhroX]

Even if it's just cosmetic, I'd love to see some wave effects. Doesn't have to be a full on storm or anything, but some swell and waves would really add to the immersion.

[Hauptbahnhof]

Water effects and weather effects is something that is being considered whilst we make sure we can implement it properly. Consider that with story/choppy water your aiming of your guns is really really going to go suffer badly.  It's why ships don't sit lower in the water when you take flooding damage.  Each ships's guns are zero'd/levelled based on their position on the hull, when you change that height it will have a drastic affect on where your aiming cursor lies as the shells won't be heading for that area.

 

Another thing to consider for a moment is how hard it is to land most of your shot as it is now, and then think about what it would be like trying to time your shots between waves hitting your ship (and that's hoping the waves are coming straight at you, never mind hitting the ship from port or starboard)...  It could be cool for a sense of realism, but for gameplay it would be a different matter.

 

Why not implement it as flat modifiers + cool visual effects instead then? I can still have big impact on how the game feel and play and force you to adapt your play-style.

 

For example have 3 different weather states:

 

Calm: As now / Baseline

 

High Seas + light rain: -20% to ship detection ranges, -30% all aircraft detection ranges, 10% bigger spreads on all shots when going into waves, 20% bigger when waves hit from the side, - 10% slower speed for all ships.

 

Storm: -40% to ship detection ranges, -60% all aircraft detection ranges, 20% bigger spreads on all shots when going into waves, 40% bigger when waves hit from the side, -20% slower speed for all ships.

 

 

Regarding ships listing or sitting lower in the water when flooding you should be able to do that also as only visual effect, and still render UI and shell trajectories normally as if the ship was in it's normal position 3-4 meters higher.

[Long_One]

It could be cool for a sense of realism, but for gameplay it would be a different matter.

 

That's why I humbly suggest a separate game mode - with different rules, taking into account lower hit ratio, and possibly greater influence of RNG. Hard-core captains will be happy, and masses can still play simplified mode. I don't expect more than 5% of players being interested in this mode, but you can't go wrong by providing broader set of challanges for your customers. That will also place you TWO steps ahead of your competitor...

 

 

[Flaz3]

 

Why not implement it as flat modifiers + cool visual effects instead then? I can still have big impact on how the game feel and play and force you to adapt your play-style.

 

For example have 3 different weather states:

 

Calm: As now / Baseline

 

High Seas + light rain: -20% to ship detection ranges, -30% all aircraft detection ranges, 10% bigger spreads on all shots when going into waves, 20% bigger when waves hit from the side, - 10% slower speed for all ships.

 

Storm: -40% to ship detection ranges, -60% all aircraft detection ranges, 20% bigger spreads on all shots when going into waves, 40% bigger when waves hit from the side, -20% slower speed for all ships.

 

 

Regarding ships listing or sitting lower in the water when flooding you should be able to do that also as only visual effect, and still render UI and shell trajectories normally as if the ship was in it's normal position 3-4 meters higher.

 

I personally feel this would not help the game at all. This is an arcade game which is not going to realism. If you add this kind of weather effects in the game, they would also need to lower the distance your shells can fly since rain does affect ballistics. Next people are going to ask for wind direction and the wind to affect the ballistics, and then starts the "why do you have health bar in this game?" questions. It is a very slippery slope. (Also if it is a storm weather and there is huge waves it would force you to turn your ship to go head on towards or away of the waves which would destroy current maps and always force you to go certain direction. I do not consider this much fun.)

 

I do however agree that on the visual only effects of the sea and waves could be awesome, but do not add storm weather...

[Flaz3]

 

That's why I humbly suggest a separate game mode - with different rules, taking into account lower hit ratio, and possibly greater influence of RNG. Hard-core captains will be happy, and masses can still play simplified mode. I don't expect more than 5% of players being interested in this mode, but you can't go wrong by providing broader set of challanges for your customers. That will also place you TWO steps ahead of your competitor...

 

 

 

There is a game that has done this, War Thunder. There is much more players on arcade side of the queue and there is probably 1/10th of the arcade queue on Realistic and 1/10th of the realistic queue on Simulator. Biggest game mode is the arcade like it or don't. Also when people first try realistic or simulator mode on this one they get pissed off when they never hit anything and stay on arcade which would then again provide realism / simulator players to have anywhere from 5 or 10+ minute queues.

[anonym_fNru3sexYMEU]

Water effects and weather effects is something that is being considered whilst we make sure we can implement it properly. Consider that with story/choppy water your aiming of your guns is really really going to go suffer badly.  It's why ships don't sit lower in the water when you take flooding damage.  Each ships's guns are zero'd/levelled based on their position on the hull, when you change that height it will have a drastic affect on where your aiming cursor lies as the shells won't be heading for that area.

 

Another thing to consider for a moment is how hard it is to land most of your shot as it is now, and then think about what it would be like trying to time your shots between waves hitting your ship (and that's hoping the waves are coming straight at you, never mind hitting the ship from port or starboard)...  It could be cool for a sense of realism, but for gameplay it would be a different matter.

sorry Ectar, but what a load of Bollocks.

How do people aim when on the move in WOT when going up and down hill? They manage.

What happens when aiming gets more difficult? People tend to move closer to their target, which in gameplay terms is better, not worse.

Seakeeping ability, and ship behaviour in different wave formations is not only a historical differentiation of combat ability between nations ships of the same eras, it is a obvious balancing opportunity to make gameplay more interesting. e.g Can't fire your forward guns because your bbs bow is piking into the waves? Then change your heading to 45 degrees, as any sailor in a heavy swell knows. Your KGV can't fire accurately because of seaspray on the optics? Tough, deal with it.

 

Seastates are a terrain variable, implement them, yesterday. 

Did anyone mention mickeymouse islands?

Balancing between classes and tiers should be redone post-seastate implementation.

[Hauptbahnhof]

 

There is a game that has done this, War Thunder.

 

Nope, War thunder haven't even started testing Ships yet, sorry...

 

Players that want to play warships is a different crowd then tank players or airplanes fans. Action is not such a high priority when your planning Naval maneuvers and Carrier strikes over longer duration games. More focus on strategy and realism please.

[Flaz3]

 Can't fire your forward guns because your bbs bow is piking into the waves? Then change your heading to 45 degrees, as any sailor in a heavy swell knows.

 

Any sailor would also know that turning the ship too much sideways to the high wave can potentially flip the ship over it's side depending how strong the wave is.

[Long_One]

There is a game that has done this, War Thunder. There is much more players on arcade side of the queue and there is probably 1/10th of the arcade queue on Realistic and 1/10th of the realistic queue on Simulator. Biggest game mode is the arcade like it or don't. Also when people first try realistic or simulator mode on this one they get pissed off when they never hit anything and stay on arcade which would then again provide realism / simulator players to have anywhere from 5 or 10+ minute queues.

 

Been there, done that I'm pretty well aware of all those facts, believe me. But still, when WoT/WoWp and WT are compared, WT fans brag about realism... WG can provide good arcade mode (easy win, sorry, WT arcade mode is garbage, imho) and with minimum of effort "steal" Realistic Mode Championship from G-company.