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OddityNZ

Smoke Concealment - Remind me how im spotted in smoke as a DD

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So i'm driving my Gallant and I ambush and engage a Fuso from 2km away and fire 5 torpedos into him doing 50k damage and flood him twice, ofc he survives and he proceeds to fire at me and breaks my engine.

I smoke up immediately after firing however I am still spotted, Thats fine, hes at 2km so im hard spotted then for me it starts getting weird.

He drops off my visuals - gone, its 2.3-2.5km but i'm still hard spotted ? His secondaries are still firing and i'm still spotted 3km and still the same. Now i'm dead.

I wasn't firing from 2.5-3km so can someone please explain the mechanic behind this for me as to me it just doesn't make sense....

Was it the fact that I still had gun bloom and he was only using secondaries but then don't they count as well...... confused..

Please be gentle...

 

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they prob shot your relative position after you fired the guns, unless you were radared. Or used a plane. Still a difficult shot to pull off but I have shot dds in smoke (very rarely or for good dmg)

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Secondaries don't count for the smoke firing penalty. You had three options: sink him with torpedoes (if you are this close be patient to ensure 100% hits, spread them out to hit the whole length of the ship to avoid damage saturation) or don't fire your guns at all until you are safe to do so or fire your guns and keep sailing at full speed to outrun his turret rotation.

I assume your 3 km hydro was on cooldown.

 

Edit: If you had gun bloom your smoke firing penalty was in effect.

Edited by Ze_Reckless

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When you shoot your guns, and you get detected while doing so, your gunbloom will stay active for 20 seconds. I dont know what Gallants smoke firing detection is, but i guess its between 2,5-3~km. That would fit your description. If the Nagato shot earlier (or not at all) he will ofc get undetected earlier when he leaves your 2km assured acquisition.

 

Oh, i have to do it:

@MrConway

See how counter intuitive gunbloom detection is? And you guys from WG said, that it makes more sense to have 20 secs gunbloom if you are being detected while firing. :Smile_sceptic:

Btw i havent forgot, i still hope that you will "fix" this and return to the "bugged" version from 0.7.xx

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14 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

dont know what Gallants smoke firing detection is, but i guess its between 2,5-3~km

If it's anything like Icarus, it's 2.4k. So he fired while the BB was less than 2.4k away and got spotted, and that meant he stayed spotted for 20 seconds.

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Vor 17 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

Oh, i have to do it:

@MrConway

See how counter intuitive gunbloom detection is? And you guys from WG said, that it makes more sense to have 20 secs gunbloom if you are being detected while firing. :Smile_sceptic:

Btw i havent forgot, i still hope that you will "fix" this and return to the "bugged" version from 0.7.xx

Just that the situation OP described would be the same in both versions.

 

@OddityNZ can you please upload the replay from that game to https://replayswows.com/ and give us the link? We can only guess at this point, but a replay will make it clear what happened.

You find the replay file in the replays folder in your game folder.

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47 minutes ago, OddityNZ said:

So i'm driving my Gallant and I ambush and engage a Nagato from 2km away and fire 5 torpedos into him doing 50k damage and flood him twice, ofc he survives and he proceeds to fire at me and breaks my engine.

I smoke up immediately after firing however I am still spotted, Thats fine, hes at 2km so im hard spotted then for me it starts getting weird.

He drops off my visuals - gone, its 2.3-2.5km but i'm still hard spotted ? His secondaries are still firing and i'm still spotted 3km and still the same. Now i'm dead.

I wasn't firing from 2.5-3km so can someone please explain the mechanic behind this for me as to me it just doesn't make sense....

Was it the fact that I still had gun bloom and he was only using secondaries but then don't they count as well...... confused..

Please be gentle...

 

When you fire and are spotted while firing, your concealment if f*cked for another 20 seconds (when out of smoke this means being spotted from your guns' max range, when there's smoke between you and potential spotters, it means being spotted from "concealment when firing in smoke" range - both lasting 20 seconds).

Also, while this doesn't apply to Nagato since that one is t7, there's an upgrade called Target Acquisition System Modification 1 that extends the auto-spotting to 3km.

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18 minutes ago, AbsoluteCornflakes said:

Just that the situation OP described would be the same in both versions.

 

Could be - but not necessarily. Depends when he shot his guns. " I smoke up immediately after firing however I am still spotted " -> Is he only talking about his torps? Or maybe guns aswell. He could have been ~3km away from the Nagato, shot him before going into the smoke (thus triggering the gunbloom), and staying detected INSIDE his smoke. We are talking about even hundred meters here, and you can easily be wrong in the heat of the battle. In theory, with the oher gunbloom mechanics, he might have gotten undetected and it would have resetted his gunbloom.

At this point, its just a guess tho and the replay would definetely help to clear things up. But either way, it was him firing his guns which made him stay detected inside his smoke.

But gunbloom mechanics are anything but intuitive at this moment, the "bugged" version was much better.

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34 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Could be - but not necessarily. Depends when he shot his guns. " I smoke up immediately after firing however I am still spotted " -> Is he only talking about his torps? Or maybe guns aswell. He could have been ~3km away from the Nagato, shot him before going into the smoke (thus triggering the gunbloom), and staying detected INSIDE his smoke. We are talking about even hundred meters here, and you can easily be wrong in the heat of the battle. In theory, with the oher gunbloom mechanics, he might have gotten undetected and it would have resetted his gunbloom.

At this point, its just a guess tho and the replay would definetely help to clear things up. But either way, it was him firing his guns which made him stay detected inside his smoke.

But gunbloom mechanics are anything but intuitive at this moment, the "bugged" version was much better.

Can you remind me the mechanics of the 'bugged' version? if it's not that much trouble

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Just now, lossi_2018 said:

Can you remind me the mechanics of the 'bugged' version? if it's not that much trouble

 

Sure, np:

1. Shoot at a target and you get detected (gunbloom at max detection).

2. Go behind Cover (island/Smoke) where noone can spot you

3. Gunbloom gets resetted after a couple of seconds because noone is spotting you anymore.

 

Currently, instead of 3. we have, gunbloom stays at max range for 20 seconds because someone saw you shoot at some point.

 

Imo the bugged version is much more intuitive (noone sees you anymore -> gunbloom gets resetted), and they said, they would look into implementing this after they dealt with the CV rework.

Hope so :fish_book:

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1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

If it's anything like Icarus, it's 2.4k. So he fired while the BB was less than 2.4k away and got spotted, and that meant he stayed spotted for 20 seconds.

That's valid, However - How come the BB's didn't stay spotted with its gun bloom though as well, discounting secondaries ?

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4 minutes ago, OddityNZ said:

That's valid, However - How come the BB's didn't stay spotted with its gun bloom though as well, discounting secondaries ?

 

Post the replay and we can tell you why :Smile-_tongue:

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:D working on it, first time using this replay system.

 

https://replayswows.com/replay/45523

 

Okay I watched it back, The gunbloom was definitely active from me and the distance was shorter than I originally stated. However why did they drop off my visuals ? I'm guessing that there 20seconds was up, But there a huge BB why are they concealed so easily within a short distance.

 

I should have done a better job finishing that BB off but I honestly thought 5 torpedoes was enough.....

 

I think I have learned this the hard way myself but yeah.... Its not something that occurs for me often in my thousands of games.

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Same goes for the Loyang for me. Always end up hard spotted in smoke by ships 5Km from me. I thought its hydro was a powerplay, but it turns out to be something other ships can do without hydro...

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1 hour ago, OddityNZ said:

:D working on it, first time using this replay system.

 

https://replayswows.com/replay/45523

 

Okay I watched it back, The gunbloom was definitely active from me and the distance was shorter than I originally stated. However why did they drop off my visuals ? I'm guessing that there 20seconds was up, But there a huge BB why are they concealed so easily within a short distance.

 

I should have done a better job finishing that BB off but I honestly thought 5 torpedoes was enough.....

 

I think I have learned this the hard way myself but yeah.... Its not something that occurs for me often in my thousands of games.

You were well within the 2km of proxyspotting range, hence you both could still see each other

 

As Fuso was moving away you started firing your guns extending your "spotting" distance to 2.4km, he wasn't firing his main guns (and waaaay more than 20s had passed since he shot at you) so his detection stayed at 2km. Secondaries don't extend it

 

If you hadn't started firing just as he was approaching the 2km mark you would have went undetected aswell. Either that, or started firing earlier (not sure what were you wating for) to kill him before he gets far enough away

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1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Sure, np:

1. Shoot at a target and you get detected (gunbloom at max detection).

2. Go behind Cover (island/Smoke) where noone can spot you

3. Gunbloom gets resetted after a couple of seconds because noone is spotting you anymore.

 

Currently, instead of 3. we have, gunbloom stays at max range for 20 seconds because someone saw you shoot at some point.

 

Imo the bugged version is much more intuitive (noone sees you anymore -> gunbloom gets resetted), and they said, they would look into implementing this after they dealt with the CV rework.

Hope so :fish_book:

ty, it was much better and logical, I agree

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3 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

@MrConway

See how counter intuitive gunbloom detection is? And you guys from WG said, that it makes more sense to have 20 secs gunbloom if you are being detected while firing. :Smile_sceptic:

Btw i havent forgot, i still hope that you will "fix" this and return to the "bugged" version from 0.7.xx

Good. We need to remind them. Cause otherwise they'll "forget"

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1 hour ago, OddityNZ said:

 

I should have done a better job finishing that BB off but I honestly thought 5 torpedoes was enough.....

IMO this is the real problem here,  its not you...nothing should be alive after 5 torp hits in this game unless its damage saturation?:Smile_amazed: If he was destroyed at that point we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

DD gameplay is tough as it is in this metta ATM, but hey, indestructible BB'S is apparently the way forward for WG?:Smile_hiding:

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Thanx Seawolf, Yeah he wasn't even full HP when he got hit with those torps but what can you do.

 

I thought that there was range in which BB's are still detected even while not firing from outside of smoke, He does get me with a blind fire on that last salvo but it doesnt make sense for a BB to "go dark" at such a short range regardless and why don.t the secondaries give it away....

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5 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Imo the bugged version is much more intuitive (noone sees you anymore -> gunbloom gets resetted), and they said, they would look into implementing this after they dealt with the CV rework.

Hope so :fish_book:

Don't bet on it. Remember unified account share gold across all WG world of titles.

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43 minutes ago, HMS_Britannia said:

Don't bet on it. Remember unified account share gold across all WG world of titles.

Unlike the unified share gold, Sub_Oct gave out an all in confirmation that the more intuitive version will make it into the game ... hopefully by 0.8.3

 

 

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5 hours ago, SeaWolf7 said:

MO this is the real problem here,  its not you...nothing should be alive after 5 torp hits in this game unless its damage saturation?:Smile_amazed:

All 5 hits were perfectly midships (single-fired), so on Fusos torpedo belt. Literally the least damage they could have done

 

Launching those torps as a full launcher spread would most likely have killed the Fuso there

 

4 hours ago, OddityNZ said:

I thought that there was range in which BB's are still detected even while not firing from outside of smoke

Same 2km as every other ship

 

4 hours ago, OddityNZ said:

He does get me with a blind fire

You were spotted, how is that blind fire?

 

4 hours ago, OddityNZ said:

it doesnt make sense for a BB to "go dark"

It doesn't make sense for you to smoke up and still be able to spot the BB who's like 15km away from you just because he fired his main guns, and yet that's exactly how it works

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9 hours ago, OddityNZ said:

So i'm driving my Gallant and I ambush and engage a Fuso from 2km away and fire 5 torpedos into him doing 50k damage and flood him twice, ofc he survives and he proceeds to fire at me and breaks my engine.

I smoke up immediately after firing however I am still spotted, Thats fine, hes at 2km so im hard spotted then for me it starts getting weird.

He drops off my visuals - gone, its 2.3-2.5km but i'm still hard spotted ? His secondaries are still firing and i'm still spotted 3km and still the same. Now i'm dead.

I wasn't firing from 2.5-3km so can someone please explain the mechanic behind this for me as to me it just doesn't make sense....

Was it the fact that I still had gun bloom and he was only using secondaries but then don't they count as well...... confused..

Please be gentle...

 

That doesn`t sound right: it is 2.4k spotting range when you fire guns in smoke and you are spotted for 20 sec if you stay 2.4k or closer, but not if you start moving away (or him) while still in smoke. 2.5k distance in between, you are not spotted any more.

 

Just been in training room to confirm that.

 

Are you sure that Fuso was the only ship that proximity?

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20 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

All 5 hits were perfectly midships (single-fired), so on Fusos torpedo belt. Literally the least damage they could have done

 

Launching those torps as a full launcher spread would most likely have killed the Fuso there

 

Fair Point.

 

20 hours ago, wilkatis_LV said:

 

It doesn't make sense for you to smoke up and still be able to spot the BB who's like 15km away from you just because he fired his main guns, and yet that's exactly how it works

That I did not know. So if the gun bloom is still active you can spot in smoke? :Smile_amazed: 

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