Clan sizes, are they too big?

[admiralgpt]

I was curious about people's thoughts on this. There are a lot of guys on the clan recruitment pages, bumping threads and doing there best trying to recruit. (Yes I'm one of them)

 

Clans do create great social environments but the reality is only so many people can ever play in clan battles. Clan officers only have so much time for individuals. It is a lot of structure and planning to be able to manage that many people.

 

That being said people still join these massive clans and clan battles aren't the only motivation for joining a clan. But is is too much? Can massive clans create stagnant environments causing some people to lose interest? Inactivity? Does it restrict other clans from coming through with lack of player movement? Too big = less personal?

 

For my own personal clan I hope to run 2 clan teams of 10/11 regular active guys and then a few extra spaces for social people. I dont see the need for competitive clans to be 50 spaces.

 

Discuss :)

[Captain_Singleton]

so you never played tanks? it works fine there with a maximum of 100, and planes too which is strange considering the size of the player base, i would argue for bigger clans, if you check out the recruitment threads there are lots of clans with multiple subdivisions - some as many as 4 or 5...

[159Hunter]

50 spots is not enough I'd say. There plenty of communities that need to split up in multiple clans to accomodate all their members.

[Gnirf]

4 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

50 spots is not enough I'd say. There plenty of communities that need to split up in multiple clans to accomodate all their members.

 

2 hours ago, Salentine said:

so you never played tanks? it works fine there with a maximum of 100, and planes too which is strange considering the size of the player base, i would argue for bigger clans, if you check out the recruitment threads there are lots of clans with multiple subdivisions - some as many as 4 or 5...

I would like to offer a different perspective. To have good clan battles and other things we also need diversity and that means individual clans, run separately. If the clans are too big they will advance too fast making it impossible to design the port and facilities and their growth decently. A good number of clans would have too many members for clan battles. 

 

It is also very difficult for us to recruit new members who are small clans if all free members goes to the big clans and be say CLAN10 of a familiar name. 

 

Think of the following things:

Is it good for clan battles to have many or few clans

In clan battles is it ok that same clan should play with number of teams instead of having separate teams 

Is it good or bad to have many that can lead a clan

With a limited number of players I think we must think of what is the optimal distribution of clans in numbers and size 

 

Yes it is easy for leaders to point out but start a new clan, but may forget that if the size and other things like facility growth will if they are too large makes it hopeless for new clans or small clans to grow as their members will go to the large clans.

 

What is the benefits then?

 

Yes I have taken over a dormant clan very recently as the clan leader and some others ceased its activity.

Yes if I would not have done that I would have moved to another clan larger.

If so that clan would have died - that is of course a natural development.

But do you feel if it is only positive if the clans say would allow 100 or 200 members and the effect would be that the clan numbers go down enourmusly?

Would that be good or bad?

 

What is the optimal size? Surely you must agree with that is healthy if there are many clans? And also that the development of clan facilities i.e. how fast you improve them must be designed with clansize in mind.

 

Let me tell you I do not know the optimal size but I am convinced that it is a limit to what size a clan should be visavi the playerbase and a healthy number of clans for different activities.

It is not different than football teams - it is not healthy to be too large in squad.

 

Yes many are interested in a community - it  is a sad thing that many are huge but I think we need many teams and clans. Because the community is driven from other perspectives - you can have a large numbe rof say English World of warships fans in same community- but clans in World of warships have also to fulfil other perspectives, as the goals are different.

 

I hope you find some of it worth discussing  

 

[maxram68]

My 2 cents: Expanding beyond 50 slots in a clan should be possible.

It would also somewhat eliminate the need some have to split up into several clans.

 

However, approaching more than around 30 members also introduces the need for more positions within a clan.

 

In WoWp we had 10 different positions w. unique roles, which made even a fairly large clan manageable.

Here we have 4 positions - that's not enough.

 

[admiralgpt]

I've heard two large clans at the top saying we need 50 members + but nobody is telling me why....

[Beastofwar]

There is always only a small core that is actually dedicated enough to show up at important matches. So you need quite a base to fill missing spots/positions with the players that can actually use that class very well. Larger clans have larger dedicated cores, which is easier to present a strong representation of their clan in battles. Smaller clans will have to fill missing spots with less talented players or class generalists. They will be in a worse position.

 

Does that mean all clans have to be small to reduce that advantage ? I don't think so.

 

 

[wilkatis_LV]

23 minutes ago, admiralgpt said:

I've heard two large clans at the top saying we need 50 members + but nobody is telling me why....

Better question - why not?

Its people you can regularly play with. As simple as that

 

And what would be the point for splitting "Clan & Clan2"  into "Clan & Clan2 & Clan3 & Clan4"? We already have these multi-pat clans all around

 

Lastly - what do you mean by "Maximum teams a clan can field"?

[Linkaex]

I find it hard to fill in the spots. 
 

[Gnirf]

7 hours ago, admiralgpt said:

I was curious about people's thoughts on this. There are a lot of guys on the clan recruitment pages, bumping threads and doing there best trying to recruit. (Yes I'm one of them)

 

Clans do create great social environments but the reality is only so many people can ever play in clan battles. Clan officers only have so much time for individuals. It is a lot of structure and planning to be able to manage that many people.

 

That being said people still join these massive clans and clan battles aren't the only motivation for joining a clan. But is is too much? Can massive clans create stagnant environments causing some people to lose interest? Inactivity? Does it restrict other clans from coming through with lack of player movement? Too big = less personal?

 

For my own personal clan I hope to run 2 clan teams of 10/11 regular active guys and then a few extra spaces for social people. I dont see the need for competitive clans to be 50 spaces.

 

Discuss :)

I wrote yes above, but that is because you have not 3 options,  current size is OK. Because I do not want to say No indicating I want larger sizes. I have made a post (4)with my issues.

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

 

I would like to offer a different perspective. To have good clan battles and other things we also need diversity and that means individual clans, run separately. If the clans are too big they will advance too fast making it impossible to design the port and facilities and their growth decently. A good number of clans would have too many members for clan battles. 

And then they play with multiple teams, been there, done that.

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

It is also very difficult for us to recruit new members who are small clans if all free members goes to the big clans and be say CLAN10 of a familiar name. 

Then you'll have to step it up a notch and, those big clans with big names are picky in who they accept. Use that to your advantage.

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

Think of the following things:

Is it good for clan battles to have many or few clans

we have more than enough clans atm, never had to wait long to go into battle

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

In clan battles is it ok that same clan should play with number of teams instead of having separate teams 

there is no issue with that, they are playing

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

Is it good or bad to have many that can lead a clan

there are small clans with many leaders and big communities with one dictator, whatever suits them I guess. I don't care

1 hour ago, Gnirf said:

With a limited number of players I think we must think of what is the optimal distribution of clans in numbers and size 

But not all plans are competitive, some creat an entire community with competitive, training and causual players. Some pple even go way back from other games and such. And they want to stick together.

 

[Gnirf]

1 hour ago, maxram68 said:

My 2 cents: Expanding beyond 50 slots in a clan should be possible.

It would also somewhat eliminate the need some have to split up into several clans.

 

However, approaching more than around 30 members also introduces the need for more positions within a clan.

 

In WoWp we had 10 different positions w. unique roles, which made even a fairly large clan manageable.

Here we have 4 positions - that's not enough.

 

Sue, but you still does not think about the overall playerbase numbers and what is the purpose of the clans if they want to have tournaments, designing progression (see my post 4)

[Gnirf]

51 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

And then they play with multiple teams, been there, done that.

Then you'll have to step it up a notch and, those big clans with big names are picky in who they accept. Use that to your advantage.

we have more than enough clans atm, never had to wait long to go into battle

there is no issue with that, they are playing

there are small clans with many leaders and big communities with one dictator, whatever suits them I guess. I don't care

But not all plans are competitive, some creat an entire community with competitive, training and causual players. Some pple even go way back from other games and such. And they want to stick together.

 

Well in the clan battles you have a divisional progression and if new small clans should playing their opponents which are of their class you need numbers also - it is not just a question of going into battle.

 

I have no problems with that some clans are picky and more elite  - that is what we need a healthy numbers for.

And I do agree that some clans will have  a lifespan as the founding m,embers leave etc, that might lead to another function  that maybe WG should implement - mergers so that two clans which migh die otherwise can merge and instead of having 5-10 left out of 30 slots they can pool their resources thus making use of their history, it is like when two cooperations merge.

 

But I am convinced that there is a suitable limit to what the clan size should be. 

 

There is a reason why not B-teams etc are allowed to play without limitations in the football league systems.

Therefor I also limit teams to 1 to prevent transfers etc which makes it unfair.

 

Some of these thing might go to work with if enogh rules and limitations are set.

 

But to those who says it is not enough - what is the optimal size? 

 

Do you not see any dangers?

[admiralgpt]

1 hour ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Maximum teams a clan can field

Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta etc etc - Is 1 or 2 enough or more?

 

1 hour ago, 159Hunter said:

Then you'll have to step it up a notch and, those big clans with big names are picky in who they accept. Use that to your advantage.

You only have to look at the recruitment thread to realise there's not much activity in this regard. Some of that comes down to stats snobbery. Personally i have begun dropping PM's to individuals and for the most part have had polite reply's (thankfully). But its still not ideal to be having to resort to this measure to try and get teams together

 

1 hour ago, 159Hunter said:

But not all clans are competitive, some create an entire community with competitive, training and casual players. Some pple even go way back from other games and such. And they want to stick together.

And this part i understand -Same with players that take a step back from playing the game and want to remain in the clan.

 

What i don't get is when people go to a big team in the hope they can "break into" that main 7. Competitive play makes players better and increases skill levels. I was fortunate enough to experience this with CG - They too were struggling for regular games because of not having enough competitive people committing to turning up for clan battles (despite having 50 members at the time). The guys at CG were very social, and took the time to help develop me as a player and i whole heartedly recommend them as a clan if people consider joining one. But then you speak to some people who are happy playing in CLAN-B in the hope of getting a spot, and working their way into CLAN-A's games and i just think, what a waste! People miss out on so much competitive play time, that would make them a whole lot better, and other clans are missing out on using these players, because for some bizarre reason some people are happy waiting months to try and break into a big name clans main team rather than simply playing and enjoying the game which would benefit themselves and others. This of course is their choice. But i find it frustrating as a clan leader now and as a player knowing how much i benefited from being in a competitive team. As i originally stated, i then wonder if those that dont break into the main team simply lose the will to play, leave the game or go inactive.

 

It is their choice, some people make it, some may leave and look for the game time, some are happy being rotated and turning up on chance of they get a game - i dont know, that is why i started this thread, just for opinions

 

 

[admiralgpt]

27 minutes ago, Gnirf said:

 

I have no problems with that some clans are picky and more elite  - that is what we need a healthy numbers for.

And I do agree that some clans will have  a lifespan as the founding m,embers leave etc, that might lead to another function  that maybe WG should implement - mergers so that two clans which migh die otherwise can merge and instead of having 5-10 left out of 30 slots they can pool their resources thus making use of their history, it is like when two cooperations merge.

 

But I am convinced that there is a suitable limit to what the clan size should be. 

 

I agree with all this, and a great idea about the merging option! but of course WG get their cash out of people starting new clans, so they earn more if 2 disband and 1 starts up, so will likely never happen

[wilkatis_LV]

26 minutes ago, admiralgpt said:

Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta etc etc - Is 1 or 2 enough or more?

Again - this explains nothing.

 

Do you mean that as the CB Alpha / Bravo thing? Do you mean that as Random divs? Do you mean that as CB teams regardless of A/B rating selected?

[admiralgpt]

2 minutes ago, wilkatis_LV said:

Again - this explains nothing.

 

Do you mean that as the CB Alpha / Bravo thing? Do you mean that as Random divs? Do you mean that as CB teams regardless of A/B rating selected?

i didnt realise we were even talking about random divisions

[GarrusBrutus]

41 minutes ago, admiralgpt said:

What i don't get is when people go to a big team in the hope they can "break into" that main 7.

This is not always the case Admiral. Since we had contact recently after my departure from HOME, I will use my personal "situation" in this regard:

I joined TTT because it is an established clan with a lot of skilled members, so there is always someone to play divisions with. I will enjoy all the benefits a clan from this size has to offer. Besides, a large clan can always field a CB team. Due to members not being interested in CBs anymore, in my previous clan we struggled to get a team together even with 30+ members.

And your assumptions are not right: I'm not hoping to break into the main 7, I am hoping to play clanbattles with players from my own skilllevel and against players from my own skilllevel.

 

The most important thing you did not mention is the social aspect of the game. I've been playing for almost three years and created many friendships along the way. I do not know anyone of your clan but I do know a lot of people in TTT. (Even before some ex-HOME members joined it). That made the choice quite easy for me.

[admiralgpt]

12 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

 

The most important thing you did not mention is the social aspect of the game. I've been playing for almost three years and created many friendships along the way. I do not know anyone of your clan but I do know a lot of people in TTT. (Even before some ex-HOME members joined it). That made the choice quite easy for me.

 

As i said not all people join for the same reasons and i completely get this. I've seen some teams have a separate clan for their "retired" members who still play casually which i think is a great idea. 

 

But as an example i came across a pair of players the other day. One was happy in his clan (absolutely fine) but his friend was actively improving his stats so that he may "trial" to be in a particular clans B team. I just thought that sounded sad tbh. He was a very capable player and would have greatly benefited from being in a competitive environment. Instead the guy had to gt his "numbers up" to apply. Its not like these guys cant still go into other clans discord and speak and div with other people. 

 

Numbers are important to a degree. Every clan, including myself, has to set some sort of base line (even though its a guide). It is very frustrating if you go one ship down regularly in the first 5 minutes of a game through someone not listening or always turning out at the wrong time. But there are many clans losing out on playing time due to none active members when there's other people out there completely ignoring some good clans to try and get into the named ones. Everyone likes an established brand

 

Again its there choice - just sparking debate :)

[admiralgpt]

Maybe it would be an idea if WG developed a Mercenary system where by players that aren't able to play that night can put themselves in a list to make themselves available to play? Similar to the "looking for division" tabs

 

I'm sure iIve read something like this somewhere on another thread (i think) so not pretending its my idea.  

 

This would surely be a big help to a lot of single players and clans alike?

[NothingButTheRain]

Our clan is basically full all the time. Yes, the maximum of 100 worked fine in WoT 

 

I voted to keep it at 2, but for me it doesn't really matter anyway. I had wanted to leave the 2nd vote option blanc, but it was not allowed so I had to fill in something.

 

[Gnirf]

8 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Our clan is basically full all the time. Yes, the maximum of 100 worked fine in WoT 

 

I voted to keep it at 2, but for me it doesn't really matter anyway. I had wanted to leave the 2nd vote option blanc, but it was not allowed so I had to fill in something.

 

100? Yes but they have a larger player base. I do not play WoT is it other teamsizes there?

[wilkatis_LV]

2 hours ago, admiralgpt said:

i didnt realise we were even talking about random divisions

Clans can play in randoms as divisions. In fact, that's most of what clans do.

 

And your question (to which you STILL fail to provide actual explanation what you mean) doesn't even attempt to make anything clear

[admiralgpt]

I have never seen divisions referred to as Alpha Bravo or Charlie - Only A,B,C - So i had thought it had been obvious. But i was talking about clan teams for clan battles. Ie 7+ (or less depending on the competitive format i guess)

[AirSupremacy]

IMHO max. 100 players per clan would be perfect, so 20-40 active players on a day or point in time.