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Nazgarth

WG, WoT, WoWS and making them sucessful as "E-Sports"

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So KotS VIII final is ongoing right now and connection issues aside (maybe on the ninth attempt WG can get it right?), WoWS has little to no draw for a wider audience outside of the WoWS community.

 

Why? The game is already pretty niche and nothing really can change that, but what doesn't help matters the way I see it is the ridiculous downtime between games, one of the main problems that killed WoT in the same area, something which WG poured millions into WGL to be successful, ultimately failed. The games would last 5 minutes or less including the 30 or so seconds it actually took for the teams to actually drive into a position to actually shoot an enemy, then it would take at least 5 minutes to get another game up and running. 

 

People stumbling across the "competitive" stream on Twitch/YT are greeted by what? Talking and talking, and some more talking, followed by an unnecessary pre-recorded ramble about the map being played and nothing going on. As though the design of the map was somehow a rocket science of sorts. As far as I'm concerned the pre-recorded segment could be completely removed, to allow the casters to explain nuances of a certain map if they apply during the battle (which they often do anyway).

 

More often then not the none-gameplay segment goes on for longer than what the actual game time takes once it has begun, WoWS is already a "thinking mans shooter", aka; a slower paced game than most trying to make headway in the E-sports scene, they don't need to compound this with repeated overly long breaks between the action. And don't get me wrong I like Flamu, Earlgrey, Crysantos, and the Saltminer, but for someone unfamiliar with the game and/or casters will undoubtedly become bored and move on to something else if they catch the stream during one of the extended talking segments.

 

Basically if you have enjoyed KotS , don't be surprised if it goes away one day because due to WGs own mistakes they have had to cut their losses and stop doing such events, as seen with WoT.

 

Also the are other problems which prevented WoT and potentially WoWS from being successful as E-sports, but simply reducing game down time is relatively easy to fix vs balance, RNG issues.

 

Naturally all of the above is IMO.

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Beta Tester, Players, In AlfaTesters
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With RNG in the equation of game-mechanics, any type of “competitive” will be dead on arrival.

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KotS is community driven with help from WG. I think everyone knows its never going to be like E-sports. Still alot of ppl (myself included) enjoy watching it. 

 

Why would it go away? It looks like its getting more and more viewers every KotS. (Looks like for me atleast. Dont have any numbers)

If you dont enjoy it there are alot of MLG, daka daka, 360 noscope fast gameplay games out there. Go watch that instead. 

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1 minute ago, MrFingers said:

With RNG in the equation of game-mechanics, any type of “competitive” will be dead on arrival.

Yea, I edited my original post regarding RNG. its not me who wants WoWS as a competitive sport, its WG who pushed WoT and now will push WoWS.

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Just now, MortenTardo said:

KotS is community driven with help from WG. I think everyone knows its never going to be like E-sports. Still alot of ppl (myself included) enjoy watching it. 

 

Why would it go away? It looks like its getting more and more viewers every KotS. (Looks like for me atleast. Dont have any numbers)

If you dont enjoy it there are alot of MLG, daka daka, 360 noscope fast gameplay games out there. Go watch that instead. 

Just look to WoT as to why it could go away. At the end of the day WG is a company and if this KotS venture doesn't see monetary returns why would they continue to support/fund it?

 

Its not about me enjoying it, I'm already here (if I didn't I wouldn't even have bothered to make this thread), its about bringing in new players and in turn more money for WG. Don't pretend for a second WG made KotS out the kindness of their hearts. :Smile_veryhappy:

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[TORAZ]
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I remember an early interview in which WG themselves said that WoWs has no potential as an esport and they never intended it to have such.

So yeah.

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5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I remember an early interview in which WG themselves said that WoWs has no potential as an esport and they never intended it to have such.

So yeah.

And yet they are hosting a competitive competition on all major streaming services as well as advertising on all server cluster webpages, what WG say =/= what actually happens.

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55 minutes ago, Nazgarth said:

More often then not the none-gameplay segment goes on for longer than what the actual game time takes once it has begun

go watch pretty much any League of Legends competitive streams, and then tell me again how a successful ESport tournament can't have long pauses between matches that are filled with analysis :fish_palm:

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1 minute ago, Tyrendian89 said:

go watch pretty much any League of Legends competitive streams, and then tell me again how a successful ESport tournament can't have long pauses between matches that are filled with analysis :fish_palm:

Sorry didn't realise LoL was as slow paced as WoWS :Smile_facepalm:

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59 minutes ago, Nazgarth said:

And yet they are hosting a competitive competition on all major streaming services as well as advertising on all server cluster webpages, what WG say =/= what actually happens.

 

They are supporting a community event with some really minor resources and advertising it inside the game community. Hardly a real push into the realm of esports.

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Thing with WoWs and WoT is that team games are mostly decided by FC - be it setup, tactics, reacting, etc. Individual player skill isn't really a thing because they're all pretty much on the same high level.

 

Now whilst those of us who have played CW in boats or tanks can appreciate the FC element, if you've not done that before watching something like KotS isn't much different from a normal random. 

 

On top of that, you don't really get to see individual player skill such as perfect angling or bow tanking, or whatever because it's always a helicopter view flicking about because the interesting bit usually involves a lot of stuff happening simultaneously.

 

So, for a casual/passing viewer, the game seems to be a load of tiny boats doing not very much on a really big map whilst apparently firing the same bullets at each other. 

 

There's no spells, force fields, snake like twitch reactions, clutch kills, dragons, tactical nukes, or anything else. 

 

Like tanks, the game just doesn't lend itself to eSports viewing unless you understand the game already. 

 

Even when something has the potential, it quickly turns into a mechanics abuse fest. I remember years ago War Thunder trying it with planes in a 1 v 1 format - every game was just two planes just flying in an ever decreasing circle with flaps and gear down on the edge of stalling until one got a shot in - the only skill was knowing how to play right on the edge of the flight mechanics. It was really dull...

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WG Staff
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Hi there,

 

Thanks for the feedback. We're very sorry for the connection issues, this is just as frustrating for us as it was for you.

 

I think there are some misconceptions about KotS and the motivation behind it from @Nazgarth's side, so let me clarify a few points.

 

WoWs and eSports: We never pushed World of Warships to be an eSports-title, the competitive scene is community-driven and always has been. Let's take King of the Sea as example - this project has been supported from the community team's side, namely by MrConway. This is also the reason why you can't compare it to WoT - WoT introduced officially supported eSports with ESL, a full league, etc. - WoWs is supporting community-driven events. Two very different approaches.

Wargaming's involvement and motivation: This is a community event - we love it. We do our best to support it and help the organizers to make it bigger / better. Our involvement is helping with promotion, prizepool, art assets and later on with a broadcast provided by us. The scope of support grew over time and the effect of that should be quite visible.

Quality: We're always trying to increase the overall production quality and I think the KotS tournament looks quite impressive at this point, except for the connection hick-ups we had (that had some impact on the quality of the rest). I can't really recall any major issues with the KotS VII broadcast at all that we hosted from our Prague office. Please keep in mind that we don't have an eSports casting studio, we're working within the limitations of what we have available.

Format: I'm very happy to read some comments regarding how to improve the format and flow of the broadcast. But please keep in mind that there are a bazillion things happening in the background and that the participating teams need time to prepare, rest, ready up, etc. - this is why we have some minutes of additional analysis in between, so that the tournament can run smoothly and doesn't burn out organizers and participating teams. Same thing is true for the map introduction - it covers nicely the 1 min battle counter before the action starts, but we can look into improvements on that front.

Audience: The vast majority of people watching KotS are interested in the competitive aspect of it and aren't turned off by it. If we wanted to use competitive gameplay to mainly attract new players, the setup and tournament design would have to be significantly different. As I said before, our main motivation here is to provide support to this community activity and we enjoy doing it - all the people you see involved here are passionate about competitive gameplay - MrConway, Dreameater, Mimimissile, me and many others in the background.

 

From my side big shout out to everybody involved in making this tournament happen - all organizers, adjudicators, mod makers, participating teams, streamers and so forth. We all do this with passion and even though things aren't perfect, we're striving to make it better with each iteration.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

 

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:38 PM, MrFingers said:

With RNG in the equation of game-mechanics, any type of “competitive” will be dead on arrival.

 

I do not agree per se, (f.e. CSGO, Dota and other major e-sports titles have some rng-elements) although I think agree in case of WoWs and WoT. RNG is a bit too heavy here. While rng evens out in the long run, it can be - and sometimes will be - a decisive factor in tournament-stile events like KotS, with their very limited amount of matches.

 

That does not stop me from watching and having fun with it though.

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2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I'll just leave this here btw

 

unqsvarmi5o21.png

 

:Smile_trollface:

That reddit post made me chuckle, too :) I wish we could get a full fledged spectator mode - but up until that point we'll have to do with small improvements.

 

Greetings, Crysantos

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[XTREM]
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I personally don't mind the pace of the Kots tournament stream and the pauses, but the voice-over introduction video's need some improvement. We know the maps. Tell us something else, maybe some interesting tactical positions taken by teams in previous tournaments or other data relevant to the match. Overall I enjoyed watching the stream.

 

If you don't like proper analysis between games in a title like WoWs, you're watching the wrong game / stream.

 

p.s. interesting tidbit: kots means vomit in Dutch

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Too be honest i wish 4x strategy games had their own esports as well since despite being 23 i do lean more towards slower paced games with more thoughtout tactical decisions (supcom or even mechwarrior esports pls).

 

i do like it though, better than watching some werido with blue hair screaming at banning people and pros reeeeing in csgo.

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:34 AM, Nazgarth said:

KotS VIII        has little to no draw for a wider audience outside of the WoWS community.

To each their own, but I find the whole thing boring.

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On 3/23/2019 at 6:10 PM, Nazgarth said:

And yet they are hosting a competitive competition on all major streaming services as well as advertising on all server cluster webpages, what WG say =/= what actually happens.

With their track record it's hard to believe anything WG say (I remember the never ever to be available again pre-order packages for WoT - a year or so down the line they went into the shop only to be pulled due to the sh*tstorm over that - they are back in the shop now (or were a while ago)).

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