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LemonadeWarrior

High tier German destroyers

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At this moment in World of Warships the balance is pretty on point at the higher tiers, but in my opinion destroyers are in a weird spot, especially the German DDs.
See the table below:
 

High tier destroyers
Nation Tier Ship name Purpose Conc Gimmicks
IJN 9 Yugumo Torpedo 5.5 TBRB
IJN 10 Shimakaze Torpedo 5.6 Wall of skill
RN 9 Jutland Cap cont/gunship 5.7 Hydro 3km & repair party
PAN 9 Chung Mu Cap cont 5.7 Radar
USN 9 Fletcher Hybrid 5.8 DF
PAN 10 YueYang Cap cont 5.8 Radar
USN 10 Gearing Hybrid 5.9 DF
IJN 9 Kitakaze Gunship 5.9 TBRB
KM 9 Z46 Cap cont 5.9 Hydro 5km
RN 10 Daring Cap cont/gunship 6.0 Hydro 3km & repair party
SN 10 Grozovoi Hybrid 6.0 DF and repair party
KM 10 Z52 Hybrid 6.1 Hydro 6km
IJN 10 Harugumo Gunship 6.2 TBRB
SN 9 Udaloi Gunship 6.8 DF
SN 9 Tashkent Gunship 7.4 Repair party
SN 10 Khabarovsk Gunship 7.9 Repair party

 

 

I am probably a bit off with the purposes I have given to some DDs. The difference between a gunship and cap contester is that a cap contester functions really well against other DDs, where a gunship doesn't. EG: It is impossible for a Harugumo to hunt down a Shimakaze. 

Z46
Z46 feels a bit forgotten imo. With her current concealment she will encounter ships such as the Kitakaze, Jutland and Daring. Z46 has some really nice reload torpedoes, but her shell damage output is pretty darn low. Jutland can dish out 220,32k HE damage and Kitakaze 242,88k HE damage, where the Z46 can only do 170,1k HE damage per minute. 

This leaves me wondering, where does the Z46 belong? They used to be darn good cap contesters, but the game has passed that stage. Okay, well they are still really good torpedo boats. Fast reloading torpedoes, which could inflict some sweet flooding damage. Wait, what, flooding damage got nerfed...
Now what? 

EDIT: She never had a 5.6km hydro range, it was 4.7km. My bad.

Z52
The hydro of the Z52 stayed pretty steady, it was around 5.94 before, or something like that and it is now 6km. While having superior hydro she also got nerfed by the flooding nerf that was brought into the game lately. Just as the Z46 she used to be a pretty good torpedo boat that could set many floodings. It used to be a reward for the low damage torpedoes. 
Still really good at lighting up an entire cap when you can hit the rock in the middle of the cap.

Doubts
I am not really sure about the German DD line. The lack of gun power used to make up for their strong hydro, but with the addition of RN DDs and the IJN gun boat line, and the flooding damage nerf, they feel really weak, especially the Z46. I think the Z46 deserves a 6km hydro as well, and that both ships should receive a buff to their torpedo reload time. Improved torpedo dispersion?

In my opinion the Kitakaze, Jutland and Daring should all receive a concealment nerf. Especially the British DDs were really strong before they fixed the concealment mechanic. They definitely need to be looked at when they introduce it as a feature. 

Your thoughts?

 

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To make things worse german DDs are clumsy, smoke is worse than the others and they are big and easy to hit targets. I would buff AP  pen angles and torp reload to compensate for poor damage and flooding nerf. 

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i am making my way towards them right now! and i fell that they should get a gun buff and some of them even a concealment buff( gaede, mass, z-23)

About the gun buffs they should give them 1/4 pen on the HE shells and if it turns to be broken( like kitakze and harugumo) they could increase HE alpha from 1500 to 1600 and increase AP penetration and maybe better damage? and how about a 1k better HP for the z-52?

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[OP-B]
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17 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

To make things worse german DDs are clumsy, smoke is worse than the others and they are big and easy to hit targets. I would buff AP  pen angles and torp reload to compensate for poor damage and flooding nerf. 

I am not really a big fan of improved pen angles for their AP shells, since it doesn't fit with nation flavors of KM.

 

8 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

i am making my way towards them right now! and i fell that they should get a gun buff and some of them even a concealment buff( gaede, mass, z-23)

About the gun buffs they should give them 1/4 pen on the HE shells and if it turns to be broken( like kitakze and harugumo) they could increase HE alpha from 1500 to 1600 and increase AP penetration and maybe better damage? and how about a 1k better HP for the z-52?

I don't think the 1/4 pen buff will do anything. At this moment the German destroyers can already penetrate DD armour, yet they still lack damage output. I was also thinking about a slight HE shell buff, but it would also be fun to do something with the torpedoes, together with a hydro buff for the Z46.

Yes, the lower tier German destroyers could also use some buffs.

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Personally I feel they are fine. In high tiers they are great at punishing mistakes made by other DD's, great at cap contesting and control. That good torp reload means they are a constant threat to capital ships. 

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Whilst I would never turn down a buff to my KM DDs, I'm not certain they need it; I do think they're a bit harder to play than some of the other lines, mainly because they're easier to spot than most. The combination of smoke and decent hydro is always quite powerful, but does need a better player to make the most of it (so, not me then).

 

In my personal case, my Tier 9 appears to be cursed, which doesn't help either...

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Just now, Verblonde said:

In my personal case, my Tier 9 appears to be cursed, which doesn't help either...

For me the T9 Z-46 is a blessing of a ship. It's the T10 I sometimes struggle to get the most out of. But every line normally has a bogey ship.

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1 minute ago, Bear_Necessities said:

For me the T9 Z-46 is a blessing of a ship.

Don't get me wrong - I like it a lot. Mine was just clearly built on an old burial ground of someone who wasn't keen to have DDs built there.

 

Perhaps I need to sacrifice more virgins to the volcano gods...?

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2 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Perhaps I need to sacrifice more virgins

Unless that's some kind of slang for Canadian currency that I'm unfamiliar with, I think you're on the wrong track.

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Take a look at all German lines and you will notice that all the things that before made them good, have either been removed balanced or everyone else got buffed but them.

The hydro on DDs? With CVs and radar it lost a lot of its value. The BBs just eat damage like there's no tomorrow and their secondaries are a joke. High tier cruisers? Bottom of the stat list after nerfs.

 

Everyone does the German line's thing better than them, so there is very little reason to use them.

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6 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Don't get me wrong - I like it a lot. Mine was just clearly built on an old burial ground of someone who wasn't keen to have DDs built there.

 

Perhaps I need to sacrifice more virgins to the volcano gods...?

Goats are WAY cheaper... not that I would know........ next!

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2 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

She was nerfed a few patches ago when they dumbed down the hydro and radar ranges. I recall she had a hydro range of 5.6km, which is now 5.0 km.

 

Nerfed? 5.6km hydro?

 

Actually Z-46 hydro is buffed not nerfed as her previous hydro has range of 4.7km not 5.6km as you recall.

 

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[JR-IT]
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As said above, i would try with the 1/4 pen rule, it's  a nice buff, would make them more diverse and keep the "gimmick" of the germans ( hidro and 1/4 pen)

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17 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Nerfed? 5.6km hydro?

 

Actually Z-46 hydro is buffed not nerfed as her previous hydro has range of 4.7km not 5.6km as you recall.

 

I just checked some old posts and you are right. Now I don't know where I got the 5.6km from... lolz Thank you!
Editted my main post.

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For me, the Z-52 is one of my highest performing ships at tier X and the Z-46 was a beloved monster. That said, I think it's worth looking into anyways.

2 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Z46 feels a bit forgotten imo. She was nerfed a few patches ago when they dumbed down the hydro and radar ranges. I recall she had a hydro range of 5.6km, which is now 5.0 km.

Well, she never did. German hydroacoustic suites are exceptional, but only the Z-52 possesses the improved hydroacoustics of her cruiser and battleship brethren. The Z-46 ran typical hydroacoustic search which means that prior to the changes, her suite was worse and not better than it is now. She suffers from the radar range and duration increases, but she is hardly unique in that respect. 5.6 is the approximate range of the radar suite of the Roon and Fredish, not the Z-46.

2 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

With her current concealment she will encounter ships such as the Kitakaze, Jutland and Daring. Z46 has some really nice reload torpedoes, but her shell damage output is pretty darn low. Jutland can dish out 36.72k HE damage and Kitakaze 30.36k HE damage, where the Z46 can only do 28.35k HE damage per minute. 

The Kitakaze is overpowered quite frankly, and the Jutland is a bit of a unique beast. She has a hydro suite, but hers is entirely defensive. Use it at ranges that she can spot other destroyers, and those destroyers will spot her in just about the second she open fires. The Z-46 on the other hand has a very generous smoke firing/ship acquisition window where she can pummel the enemy destroyer whilst taking no damage in return. Her ballistics, whilst poor, are also superior to the Jutland's.

2 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

This leaves me wondering, where does the Z46 belong? They used to be darn good cap contesters, but the game has passed that stage. Okay, well they are still really good torpedo boats. Fast reloading torpedoes, which could inflict some sweet flooding damage. Wait, what, flooding damage got nerfed...
Now what?

She remains an exceptional cap circle combatant, superior to what she was earlier thanks to the hydroacoustics range that was improved with the changes. Her torpedoes were always very wimpy in all respect, abnormally high flooding is a Japanese and not German thing. Overall, she has only improved.

3 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

The hydro of the Z52 stayed pretty steady, it was around 5.94 before, or something like that and it is now 6km.

It was 5.88 which meant that she saw a significant increase in suite performance that now allows enemy ships a 100 m grace period before she can start smoking and shooting.

3 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

While having superior hydro she also got nerfed by the flooding nerf that was brought into the game lately. Just as the Z46 she used to be a pretty good torpedo boat that could set many floodings. It used to be a reward for the low damage torpedoes. 
Still really good at lighting up an entire cap when you can hit the rock in the middle of the cap.

Or you could just kill the destroyers that you spot yourself.

 

Overall, both boats still perform admirably and quite frankly border on overpowered especially as the Z-52 no longer takes full battleship AP damage (one of her former biggest weaknesses).

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53 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Perhaps I need to sacrifice more virgins to the volcano gods...?

Sometimes one does wonders if that will help, lol.

51 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Unless that's some kind of slang for Canadian currency that I'm unfamiliar with  …..

Grrr, don't get me started on Canadian currency (it's 'value'), Uglesett, just don't …… Grrr (ready to bite), grrr  …… let that sleeping dog lie.

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3 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

 Z46 feels a bit forgotten imo. With her current concealment she will encounter ships such as the Kitakaze, Jutland and Daring. Z46 has some really nice reload torpedoes, but her shell damage output is pretty darn low. Jutland can dish out 36.72k HE damage and Kitakaze 30.36k HE damage, where the Z46 can only do 28.35k HE damage per minute.

 

Jutland needs to spend 4pts on IFHE to has any return from her HE shells as they are not capable to pen a single part of high tier BBs. And that is a big difference. Z-46 is still faster and has faster torpedo reload. I think that Jutland and Z-46 are quite matched. If one of them should need to be adjusted it is a Jutland not a Z-46. On the other hand Kita, IMO, will be nerfed in the future as she is simply too strong. I think that Z-46 is quite good and don't need any buffs for now.

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Vor 2 Stunden, LemonadeWarrior sagte:

I am not really a big fan of improved pen angles for their AP shells, since it doesn't fit with nation flavors of KM.

Jutland and Daring get improved AP angles, while the rest of the RN-DDs do not, that should not be a problem.

 

Or they could improve the AP arming threshold. High AP-alpha is a trait of German DDs, but you can hardly use it against other DDs, because currently it needs 21 mm to arm, while most of them have 19 mm plating. So the effective angle between overpen and autobounce is quite narrow.

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11 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Jutland needs to spend 4pts on IFHE to has any return from her HE shells as they are not capable to pen a single part of high tier BBs. And that is a big difference. Z-46 is still faster and has faster torpedo reload. I think that Jutland and Z-46 are quite matched. If one of them should need to be adjusted it is a Jutland not a Z-46. On the other hand Kita, IMO, will be nerfed in the future as she is simply too strong. I think that Z-46 is quite good and don't need any buffs for now.

The advantage the Z's have is indeed to take RPF to avoid RN DDs. I'd agree if Jutland gets adjusted that the Z46 doesn't have to.
 

 

21 minutes ago, dasCKD said:

For me, the Z-52 is one of my highest performing ships at tier X and the Z-46 was a beloved monster. That said, I think it's worth looking into anyways.

Well, she never did. German hydroacoustic suites are exceptional, but only the Z-52 possesses the improved hydroacoustics of her cruiser and battleship brethren. The Z-46 ran typical hydroacoustic search which means that prior to the changes, her suite was worse and not better than it is now. She suffers from the radar range and duration increases, but she is hardly unique in that respect. 5.6 is the approximate range of the radar suite of the Roon and Fredish, not the Z-46.

The Kitakaze is overpowered quite frankly, and the Jutland is a bit of a unique beast. She has a hydro suite, but hers is entirely defensive. Use it at ranges that she can spot other destroyers, and those destroyers will spot her in just about the second she open fires. The Z-46 on the other hand has a very generous smoke firing/ship acquisition window where she can pummel the enemy destroyer whilst taking no damage in return. Her ballistics, whilst poor, are also superior to the Jutland's.

She remains an exceptional cap circle combatant, superior to what she was earlier thanks to the hydroacoustics range that was improved with the changes. Her torpedoes were always very wimpy in all respect, abnormally high flooding is a Japanese and not German thing. Overall, she has only improved.

It was 5.88 which meant that she saw a significant increase in suite performance that now allows enemy ships a 100 m grace period before she can start smoking and shooting.

Or you could just kill the destroyers that you spot yourself.

 

Overall, both boats still perform admirably and quite frankly border on overpowered especially as the Z-52 no longer takes full battleship AP damage (one of her former biggest weaknesses).

Yea, was my bad. I have changed it. Guess it was indeed because the Roon and the FDG why I remembered it like that.

I do not agree with the RN Hydro being defensive, if that would have been the case the ship detection should have been 2km. I have used RN hydro many times to rush smokes and delete destroyers, eg; RQL shipstorm tournament with the Jervis. For me it feels like the RN DDs are KM DDs 2.0. As a KM DD player you have to avoid DDs till they smoke up and than you can come near to do some chip damage.  The playstyle is pretty similar, but now the chances of even beating a IJN DD are pretty slim. The smoke window is 2.2km for the Z46

The reason I said flooding damage nerf was a nerf to the German DDs as well was because their high reload. It was easy to make people use their damage con's, because the reload was so darn fast, not because the torpedoes have a high flooding chance.

Perhaps it is what the RN DDs need. Nerfing the hydro to 2km ship detection range.
 

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9 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

The advantage the Z's have is indeed to take RPF to avoid RN DDs. I'd agree if Jutland gets adjusted that the Z46 doesn't have to.

 

RN DDs are relatively new and it will pass more time till WG decide does they need to be nerfed or other DDs need to be buffed. I don't know how Z-46 weekly stats are when compared to other DDs but the one from wows-numbers site are not looking bad when compared to older lines with exception of Chung Mu. Just comparing two two latest addition is not a good way to compare ship as those new lines usually have better stats for starts.

 

9 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I do not agree with the RN Hydro being defensive, if that would have been the case the ship detection should have been 2km.

 

I have used RN hydro many times to rush smokes and delete destroyers, eg; RQL shipstorm tournament with the Jervis. For me it feels like the RN DDs are KM DDs 2.0. As a KM DD player you have to avoid DDs till they smoke up and than you can come near to do some chip damage.  The playstyle is pretty similar, but now the chances of even beating a IJN DD are pretty slim. The smoke window is 2.2km for the Z46

 

9 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Perhaps it is what the RN DDs need. Nerfing the hydro to 2km ship detection range.

 

Having 2km more range is a huge difference and big advantage for Z-46 over RN hydro. Also 2km is already assured detection range for any ship. Hydro with 2km detection range for ships don't have any sense. I don't see why RN hydro would need any nerfs. German hydro is better in all aspects but duration. So both have something unique for themselves.

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22 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

RN DDs are relatively new and it will pass more time till WG decide does they need to be nerfed or other DDs need to be buffed. I don't know how Z-46 weekly stats are when compared to other DDs but the one from wows-numbers site are not looking bad when compared to older lines with exception of Chung Mu. Just comparing two two latest addition is not a good way to compare ship as those new lines usually have better stats for starts.

 

 

 

Having 2km more range is a huge difference and big advantage for Z-46 over RN hydro. Also 2km is already assured detection range for any ship. Hydro with 2km detection range for ships don't have any sense. I don't see why RN hydro would need any nerfs. German hydro is better in all aspects but duration. So both have something unique for themselves.

It will make the hydro defensive, solely for spotting torpedoes...

Currently RN DDs have the guns of a gunship, hydro to spot ships in smoke, while staying concealed, repair party and smoke. It almost sounds a bit OP. The last thing I worry about when I play RN DDs is other DDs. Not even a Harugumo will make me sweat.

EDIT: Could also be me being used to killing DDs on a first encounter.

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1 hour ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

It will make the hydro defensive, solely for spotting torpedoes...

 

It is already defensive. With 3km range and 2.something km detection if firing, RN have only small windows of shooting a ship in our outside smake. And if somebody allow them to get to 3km to use hydro then he heavily missplayed.

 

Quote

Currently RN DDs have the guns of a gunship, hydro to spot ships in smoke, while staying concealed, repair party and smoke. It almost sounds a bit OP. The last thing I worry about when I play RN DDs is other DDs. Not even a Harugumo will make me sweat.

 

I don't understand why WG gave them heal in first place. I wouldn't mind if WG take heal from Jutland and Daring.

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I agree that they seem to be in a bad spot. Tough to make a difference in games with them (Z-23 so far for me) and usually fairly easy to counter.

 

Not sure what to do about them. I doubt increasing their anti-dd capabilities is a great idea. Maybe increase armour/increase survivability for them. Just make them peskier to get rid of.

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3 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I agree that they seem to be in a bad spot. Tough to make a difference in games with them (Z-23 so far for me) and usually fairly easy to counter.

 

Z-23 is not a great ship, but Z-46 is way better then it. It would be wrong to use Z-23 as reference for all German DDs.

 

3 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Not sure what to do about them. I doubt increasing their anti-dd capabilities is a great idea. Maybe increase armour/increase survivability for them. Just make them peskier to get rid of.

 

Increasing of survivability will increase their anti-DD capabilities tho.

 

First OP need to make proper compare of the ships to all T9/T10 DDs not just to two of them and then propose specific buffs. Comparing them just to RN and JApanese gunboats don't provide full picture. This is maybe not a question of German high tier DDs underpeforming as RN and Japanese destroyers overperforming. 

 

I personally think that Z-46 is a great DD and I don't think that it needs a buffs.

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From a balance perspective I never understood why the Lo Yang gets better hydro than even zhe germans z23 (which is a turd). Obviously the answer is €€€

 

I havn't played much T9 and blow for the longest time, but Z52 is fine and doesnt need any nerfs. Played it a lot untill a few weeks back i finally got my Legendary module.

Harugumo sisters? They have to angle or get torped  to oblivion. They're slow and turn like a bus. I've been feasting on the tears of many Harugumo players with my '52. 

RN dds? Z52 has a 3 km buffer hydro on the RN dds and the stealth-to-hydro window is 100 m. Basically unless already pointing nose away, the RN ships will get :etc_swear: while disengaging.

RN dds are no different compared to all other dds vs '52. You have to bait through all 4 charges of hydro/smoke or catch the bugger with hydro down.

Only CVs and radar can counter the almigty Z52.

 

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