New map suggestion

[LeRandaume]

I've just finished a re-work of an old version of the map "Islands of Ice" to make it as balanced and as asymmetrical as possible. 

 

Spoiler

Here is the original (oldest) version of the map by Wargaming:

 

 

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Some backstory of the map: A big chunk of fast ice fractured and drifted away, leaving behind many ice blocks drifting.

 

Spoiler

Version 1 (OLD)

 

Version 2 (OLD)

 

 

 

 

- In the left top corner of the map, Alpha control point is covered from the others by two heavy blocks of drift ice, a smaller block in the middle will give the destroyers cover, long enough to allow (tactical) retreat. On the other hand, two positions on the north and south of the control point give the opportunity to sink them with cover from the opposite team.

- Bravo control point can be captured from cover in the south. The first team to control Alpha will have a large field of view from in-between the two heavy blocks of drift ice on those positions.

- In the middle, Charlie is an island-radar-free control point with three small ice blocks. Their height allows players to fire over them from any distance.

- You will find several blocks of pack ice in the south-east part of the map, it will allow you to secretly move and organize ambushes for close quarters combat, they also provide flank cap control on the medium sized island located in the center of Delta.  Battleships will enter the zone at their own risk.

 

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Feel free to comment and give your opinion, I'll be happy to hear every suggestion! Please keep it constructive.

[Major_Damage225]

Im sure im of only a few but i miss the original ice map, you had a cap where BB's could slug it out over the biggest cap in the open, you had a cap where DD's could play peek'a boom between the numerous lil islands, and you had the middle two caps where cruisers would do theyr tactical tango, all while being able to support the BB and DD caps and have enough cover for theyr survivability. 

[WashedandDeceased]

Not sure about the position of B cap, but otherwise looks nice

On a separate note, after the camo contests WG can perhaps do a community map design contest?

[antean]

Any new map would be a welcome addition. WG, in general, appears to be remiss in adding/retaining maps (hint. hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink)

Another player community map design contest is a wonderful idea (& which, imho, WoWS is now overdue for)

[Et3rnity_fr]

Islands to the south are too tightened for ships to pass "quietly".

Even in DD it will be difficult.

 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

I am almost positive there were several new maps shown some time ago ... one being "Adriatic".

They never made it to the game?

[LeRandaume]

Il y a 5 heures, Et3rnity_fr a dit :

Islands to the south are too tightened for ships to pass "quietly".

Even in DD it will be difficult.

 

Thank you for your feedback Et3rnity. About Delta control point in the south, the goal is to offer different gameplay (ambushes and close quarters combat) from the others caps.

 

The distance between the ice blocks may be a little tight, be sure I'll keep your suggestion in mind. However, it's important to keep in mind that the map size is 48x48km and as you can see in the pictures below (Northern Lights map), you can easily fit a Harugumo between the two islands on the eastern cap (red circle).

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[marsu59]

Nice map but too many islands in the south est CAP D  for me ;-)

[thiextar]

I like the idea of the tight island spam in the south, it should offer some very interesting gameplay

[TobiAssho]

I think we are playing 2 completely different Warships. Sorry for harsh words, but I see huge flaws in the map and how you think it will be played and how it would be actually played. Beside gameplay flaws this map is very poorly balanced. I will try to explain my points to keep it constructive:
 

Balancing:

A-cap is much easier to take from the north-eastern side. South does not get any cover after entering the area around A and has no chance of turning around. Even the way to A is narrow and uncomfrotable for ships where north has a much easier and open entrance. This makes pushing from north into and through A much more comfortable than the other way around.

Gameplay:
That layout of A will lead to either no ships from south-west going into A or getting obliterated there and not going there in the future.

This map would be very campy while should provide "secretly move and organize ambushes". To make players drive forward and push they need to see what they are facing. A cap is extreamly difficult to spot, the same for B and D. You have no clue whats behind the next island. What might sound fun will result in players being very carefull and not going there at all.

 

With an island layout that devides the map in by spawns in a diagonal line you prevent spotting and movement of ships. Players will get stuck on their side of the islands. You can see this in a lot of random games with similar layout.

So matches on this map would be ships driving up and down around their spawn and fighting enemies that may be occasionally spotted at max ranges. To me this sounds like little fun.

 

If that happens the 100 islands around D will become a nightmare to go to. First players will refuse to go there because the risks are too high and not able to be calculated because there can be no spotting but radar. But even if players decide to go in to flank the enemy at their spawn they expose their ship to the whole enemy fleet when spotting them. There is no cover to attack the spawn and you get focused down quickly.

Also the time investment is huge. To successfully push you have to make sure that your flank is cleared. The ship thats further to a flank has a huge advantage against a ship that is further into the center. If you take a "save" approach on the outlines it takes a lot of time and you are out of the battle for quite a while if you dont run into an enemy ship immediately. So it will never be worth to go there.

 

It looks so easy to do maps, but for propper map design you have to take many more points into consideration as you did.

[Griva]

Despite this I would like to see competition for new map, maybe they would start making more interesting maps insted of copy paste the same thing:

[LeRandaume]

First of all, I'm genuinely happy to see serious and complete feedback even if things are far from being perfect for you. That will give me the opportunity to clarify some points and make some corrections or changes since I would agree with you on several points about balance and gameplay flaws.

 

I think it's important to remember this map design started with the idea of making something asymmetrical but balanced and challenging, with different gameplay styles and opportunities. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to predict (stupid) players behavior (Two Brothers map is the perfect example).

 

About map design, it's important to keep in mind that ice blocks (i.e. islands) are very tall as you can see in this illustration:

Spoiler

 

About balance and gameplay flaws, I'll use this map all along to illustrate my point:

 

Version 2 changes:

- Ships were able to shoot on Bravo from Alpha cover, it was also much easier to take it and defend it from the north-eastern side. 

- Charlie-cap was supposed to be an "island-radar-free" control point and as you can see it's easy to radar it from cover (large colored circles are Moskva 12km radars).

- There were not enough cover to attack/defend the spawns.

 

Here is an updated version of the map taking into account many of your remarks:

 

[Oely001]

Look here for some thoughts on map design:

I would have a lot of things to comment on your map. Should I, or do you want to take a look at my thoughts first?

[Oely001]

8 hours ago, Griva said:

Despite this I would like to see competition for new map, maybe they would start making more interesting maps insted of copy paste the same thing:

Sorry, from German Forum, but you can watch the maps:

 

[Miessa3]

10 hours ago, Randaume said:

 

As DD main I see lots of flaws in that mapdesign which gives a huge advantage to either side.

Especially problematic is the island at the south of B and the island at D in the center of the G7 square.

 

The Island at south of B is too easy to take for a DD that spawns southwest especially if it's a german DD.

The enemy DD on the other side will take a lot longer to get into the only safe parking lot on his side (which is on the same island) and even there he is way easier to sink (from C or from D2 with high gunarcs) than the southwest DD because the island is so far to the west.

 

The Island on G7 is way to attractive for USN CA Radar. DMs are way safer there than on the equivalent island in the bottom right corner of G6. On G7 you can only really be shot at from straight north (where his own spawn/team should be) or from almost straigh east inside the cap. The other cover however is vulnerable to shot from mid (if parked too far north) or from the cap and covers (maybe even from F9/G9 line) (if parked too far south).

 

Those are just the first two big ones that I immediatly spotted when looking at the map on top of the ones TobiAssho already mentioned. (and it even got worse for the B island after the rework to version 2)

 

Even though I am a hard to please critic when it comes to maps I like the idea (as I liked the old map this is based on). Keep up the work and improve it further. Maybe we even get a community mapdesign contest soon*.

It's very hard to design maps in a balanced way especially if you want to make it more asymetric than the ones from WG.

[Oely001]

The general approach should be that Radar cruisers have to take risks if they want to radar a cap. That means small islands which provide cover but are easy to flank. The big island north of B provides perfect cover, and from there a cruiser can radar B and a good part of A without taking any risk.

[LeRandaume]

@Oely001 I just went through your post about map design, very interesting reflexions and work. I've made a serious rework of the map related to it and @Miessa3 feedback, even if I don't agree on this: 

Le 20/03/2019 à 14:04, Miessa3 a dit :

The Island at south of B is too easy to take for a DD that spawns southwest especially if it's a german DD.

The enemy DD on the other side will take a lot longer to get into the only safe parking lot on his side (which is on the same island) and even there he is way easier to sink (from C or from D2 with high gunarcs) than the southwest DD because the island is so far to the west.

SW team had a slight advantage on B while NE team had a slight advantage on A.

 

Here is an updated version of the map:

[Beastofwar]

I would like to see more maps with open water. If there must be islands then to the sides so you can't (ab)use the maps edge.

[Oely001]

1 hour ago, Randaume said:

Here is an updated version of the map:

IMHO the new version of your map is much better than the previous one!   By the way, what is the map size?

 

I don't like offside caps, which is why I would take away cap Alpha completely. Then you would also have to change the southern island in cap Bravo a little. The islands southwest and northeast of cap Charlie, what purpose do they have?

[LeRandaume]

Il y a 15 minutes, Oely001 a dit :

By the way, what is the map size?

48x48km (largest map size available).

 

Il y a 19 minutes, Oely001 a dit :

The islands southwest and northeast of cap Charlie, what purpose do they have?

Can you use this map for coordinates (or circle them with paint), please?

 

[Miessa3]

30 minutes ago, Oely001 said:

IMHO the new version of your map is much better than the previous one!   By the way, what is the map size?

 

I don't like offside caps, which is why I would take away cap Alpha completely. Then you would also have to change the southern island in cap Bravo a little. The islands southwest and northeast of cap Charlie, what purpose do they have?

I agree it's a lot better now. Even though as a DD I wouldn't dare to go into D if not all radar ships are accounted for. I guess those islands are there to leave a trail so it's believable that the ice broke off and drifts southeast.

The B cap is also a lot fairer now due to the extension of the southern cruiser island to the south. Now both DDs can only be shot at if an enemy ship managed to cross the midline. It's much like the standoff A cap on Warriors path now.

The D cap can now also be shot from mid and the unfair island is gone.

To find more flaws i would actualy need to know the hight of the islands and play the map.

(btw what's about the island on D5? it looks like one of those islands i curse after ramming into them when running away looking at the enemys shells )

[Oely001]

18 minutes ago, Randaume said:

Can you use this map for coordinates (or circle them with paint), please?

I was referring to islands F2-I5 and D7-F8. They are pretty far back and could only be used by BB.

[LeRandaume]

Il y a 56 minutes, Miessa3 a dit :

what's about the island on D5? it looks like one of those islands i curse after ramming into them when running away looking at the enemys shells

This ice block (island) is here to provide some retreat options for northeast DDs. Like in the example:

 

Il y a 38 minutes, Oely001 a dit :

I was referring to islands F2-I5 and D7-F8. They are pretty far back and could only be used by BB.

I was not sure about H4-5 and E8 islands too, they may change or be deleted in next update. I'm also trying to add some "realism" as @Miessa3 said, those islands are ice blocks from the fast ice block in the bottom left corner.

[TobiAssho]

@Randaume  thank you for being open for even harsh cretisism, thumbs up for that!

Your map looks like made by a DD player. An open center is a nogo zone for all CAs and will lead to camping. I will show you on some existing maps what gameplay to expect on such a layout:

Thats Warriors Path A-Cap. Cruiser never step out of their islands and if they do and have to run they show broadside to the enemy team.

 

This is Shatter A-Cap. The same situation. Cruisers refuse to push here.

 

Transfering the already known gameplay to your map. Cruisers will not like to go anywhere close to the center in your map. Thats nice for DDs, yes, but does it create good gameplay? There is roughly 15km of more or less open water in the center between the island chains. Cruisers and BBs will refuse to go in there because its DD teritory. And DDs are incredebly hard to get out of there. You turn that whole area from B to the edge of D into a nogo zone for all ships but DDs.

So where should they go then? Around D is a lottery. Meeting any enemy ship with torps will end in a trade. Thats not fun, there is no room to outplay enyone.

A-Cap is more balanced now, but almost completely cut of from the other part of the map. Ships will go there and if you remember A-cap on the former version of Ice Islands you quickly get, that this is fatal for the gameplay. It is a very slow paced map. Ships cant engage for a long time because if they try to go towards the center they are easy pray.

Your design is from a DD perspective. You would like to be able to contest caps without being crap on because some CA behind an island pressed radar. You achieve this by opening the map. Opening the center and surround it by islands in the distance. My prediction is that Players will learn to not cross those islands and engage only at 18-20km other ships that also dont push in. The gameplay will move to the flanks and there is only one viable. D is extremely uncomfortable to play. "Nice ambush opportunities" dont lead to nice ambushes but to players avoiding getting ambushed.
Overall I think that you would create a big frustraiting lemmingtrain to A. And it will have the same problems as the completely cut of gameplay on old Ice Islands A-Cap.

 

[TobiAssho]

As one example of diverse mapdesign you get (new) north. You have an open area west with almost no islands to hide for CAs to radar. The big islands there can be shelled pretty well from different sides. So the western side is DD haven. There is a closed Center, preventing to many crosshots from 20km+ so that its comfortable to drive around on the flanks. The clue is, that the Centre provides straights in the late game and some shooting lanes. So its not cutting of the map as much as old Ice Ilsands did. On the eastern side you have a lot of vision blocking islands for ambitious cruisers to push. Overall this map provides good gameplay for diffent kind of ships with different needs. In my opinion thats what a good map should look like.