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HMS Lion Upgrades

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 Presently working through HMS Lion. I note that the main battery upgrade appears to be a modest improvement, 300 points with HE and 400 points with AP. Is this worth spending 35K XP.? Are there hidden benefits?

 

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Pretty much no benefit but the extra HE damage and fire chance really. It's a straight up upgrade though, all I can think of is you might get a few more overpens with AP on cruisers.

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I've researched and mounted 419mm guns on Lion, they barely made any difference. Not sure if worth their cost in exp and credits, especially as she isn't keeper material. If I were to grind through Lion again, I'd research hull only, base range and speed are workable enough

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Basically you get some free xp points per hit. The main thing is the caliber.

You can now roflstomp some lower tier BBs and some cruisers can be whacked with HE, regardless of angling.... :Smile_trollface:

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3 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Basically you get some free xp points per hit. The main thing is the caliber.

You can now roflstomp some lower tier BBs and some cruisers can be whacked with HE, regardless of angling.... :Smile_trollface:

Stock Lion (and Nelson's) 406mm are more than adept at HEsmashing, as they have 101mm HE pen anyway. And there aren't that many plates between 101mm and 104mm:Smile_trollface: Neptune citadels 102mm is the only one, as Mino have 101mm

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It's a straight up gun upgrade, and 35k at t9 isn't that much to ask for it. I'd go still pick it, why not.

 

Also if I'm not mistaken 419s should have slightly (like 20-ish mm across the board) better AP penetration

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2 hours ago, Panocek said:

Stock Lion (and Nelson's) 406mm are more than adept at HEsmashing, as they have 101mm HE pen anyway. And there aren't that many plates between 101mm and 104mm:Smile_trollface: Neptune citadels 102mm is the only one, as Mino have 101mm

I know, I have even re-specced the captain (had IFHE on him since KGV and Monarch, LOL).

The AP gets better too, handy against T10 cruisers. Damn buggers. 

 

Note though the Lion has the most insane dispersion ever. Generally I do not even aim in the thing.

Looking at the front guns, I had one shell go left, one go right, one go up-and-left, one go right-down...

Only two from the six went somewhere in the general direction of the target. Pfffrtttt. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

I'd say it needs 500 inch shells, maybe it will slightly scratch the side of the barn (when shooting from the inside). :Smile_trollface:

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11 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I know, I have even re-specced the captain (had IFHE on him since KGV and Monarch, LOL).

The AP gets better too, handy against T10 cruisers. Damn buggers. 

 

Note though the Lion has the most insane dispersion ever. Generally I do not even aim in the thing.

Looking at the front guns, I had one shell go left, one go right, one go up-and-left, one go right-down...

Only two from the six went somewhere in the general direction of the target. Pfffrtttt. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

I'd say it needs 500 inch shells, maybe it will slightly scratch the side of the barn (when shooting from the inside). :Smile_trollface:

Funny because I've found Lion dispersion to be okay, positive surprise after Monarch. Same with Conq guns, not stellar but not bad either, while she fixes tragic rear guns firing angle and well, you can't go wrong with more guns

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I'm working through the Lion currently and I'm not a massive fan - I just feel that you can't be very influential in her.  Sure she is good for smashing modules in the fly strike win events and you do get some lol results such as 5 incapacitations on shima  from 1 salvo earlier, but most of the time she is just boring and a bit crap.

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2 hours ago, Panocek said:

Funny because I've found Lion dispersion to be okay, positive surprise after Monarch. Same with Conq guns, not stellar but not bad either, while she fixes tragic rear guns firing angle and well, you can't go wrong with more guns

Oh it's better than Monarch for sure. With moan-argh, well, this:

tumblr_inline_pbtkqif9RO1vat855_540.gif

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Moved to the appropriate section.

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Holy crap, do I find this ship underwhelming. Like, Monarch made me grind onwards towards Conqueror, but this ship makes me frustrated again. I'm going to continue because Conqueror is being tested for 1.9 sigma buff (so its 419s aren't the same mediocre accuracy of the KGV to Lion) and who knows what fun 457 Conqueror could be, but Lion, I cannot get to like this ship. It's similar to Monarch in so many ways, yet it has so few things that get actually better:

  • Superheal. That's pretty nice. All I'm going to say though and it feels very much like its just making up for the garbage armour. But hey, this is the armour we are used to since KGV.
  • Gunnery feels like absolute sh*t. I'm not going to pretend KGV or Monarch were more accurate than this thing, Lion is consistent with them. But I do notice that drop in shell speed from Monarch. And I very much notice the 30s reload. Whereas KGV and Monarch had a fast 25 s reload allowing to outdpm things, Lion can't. Despite higher shell damage, if it weren't for the 6th module slot, Lion would be an actual drop in dpm. And unlike with KGV to Monarch, the only overmatch improvement is being able to wreck German and USN T8+ cruisers. But I prefer higher shell output against everything else over being able to deal with the occasional Roon that learned to angle without just going for the HE. 
  • Turrets have as crap angles as before. Flat turret faces though make them easily destructble though. I tried to actually play this thing in more mid to close range at times, but losing your two front guns permanently, because they are protected by a lulzy unangled 381 mm plate is just terrible.
  • In exchange for all this, my fire chance got increased. Hell yeah. Sure a straight upgrade, but frankly, Monarch felt like it rewarded some ammunition switching, given HE without insane fire chance (not like the 35% combined with 25 second reload was bad) made it less idiot proof, but with Lion, it's once again back to where the HE shell is just retardedly powerful.

Overall, Monarch for its tier is a better ship than Lion, imo. It's a step up from Monarch, but this feels pretty much like what FdG was to Bismarck before it got buffed. 

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2 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Holy crap, do I find this ship underwhelming. Like, Monarch made me grind onwards towards Conqueror, but this ship makes me frustrated again. I'm going to continue because Conqueror is being tested for 1.9 sigma buff (so its 419s aren't the same mediocre accuracy of the KGV to Lion) and who knows what fun 457 Conqueror could be, but Lion, I cannot get to like this ship. It's similar to Monarch in so many ways, yet it has so few things that get actually better:

  • Superheal. That's pretty nice. All I'm going to say though and it feels very much like its just making up for the garbage armour. But hey, this is the armour we are used to since KGV.
  • Gunnery feels like absolute sh*t. I'm not going to pretend KGV or Monarch were more accurate than this thing, Lion is consistent with them. But I do notice that drop in shell speed from Monarch. And I very much notice the 30s reload. Whereas KGV and Monarch had a fast 25 s reload allowing to outdpm things, Lion can't. Despite higher shell damage, if it weren't for the 6th module slot, Lion would be an actual drop in dpm. And unlike with KGV to Monarch, the only overmatch improvement is being able to wreck German and USN T8+ cruisers. But I prefer higher shell output against everything else over being able to deal with the occasional Roon that learned to angle without just going for the HE. 
  • Turrets have as crap angles as before. Flat turret faces though make them easily destructble though. I tried to actually play this thing in more mid to close range at times, but losing your two front guns permanently, because they are protected by a lulzy unangled 381 mm plate is just terrible.
  • In exchange for all this, my fire chance got increased. Hell yeah. Sure a straight upgrade, but frankly, Monarch felt like it rewarded some ammunition switching, given HE without insane fire chance (not like the 35% combined with 25 second reload was bad) made it less idiot proof, but with Lion, it's once again back to where the HE shell is just retardedly powerful.

Overall, Monarch for its tier is a better ship than Lion, imo. It's a step up from Monarch, but this feels pretty much like what FdG was to Bismarck before it got buffed. 

I feel the monarch and lion is a precurser to the conquerer's gameplay. You dish out your HE spam or AP volleys while fading in and out of existence with max steath built (12+km detection). Any enemy ship will have to come within 13km of you in order to be able to spot you when ure in stealth.

 

You can also tank a ton of damage with the superheal. So basically the whole british bb end game gameplay revolves around its ability to stealth and heal alot of damage. Like this:

 

Monarch: stealth

Lion: stealth, super heal, better guns

Conq: stealth, super heal, an extra turret

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5 hours ago, pra3y said:

I feel the monarch and lion is a precurser to the conquerer's gameplay. You dish out your HE spam or AP volleys while fading in and out of existence with max steath built (12+km detection). Any enemy ship will have to come within 13km of you in order to be able to spot you when ure in stealth.

 

You can also tank a ton of damage with the superheal. So basically the whole british bb end game gameplay revolves around its ability to stealth and heal alot of damage. Like this:

 

Monarch: stealth

Lion: stealth, super heal, better guns

Conq: stealth, super heal, an extra turret

As said, my issue is that tier for tier, Lion loses out on dpm over Monarch and pretty much what you get is the superheal, a bit of range, bit of hp, 1.5 knots of speed and a larger caliber. It's the same lackluster crap you got with FdG in the old days, when it was basically a gun upgrade, but way more clumsy than Bismarck and a complete repeat in the secondary department. For being one tier higher, the upgrade in guns is basically just noticeable if you fire a lot of HE, which might make BBs cry, but against cruisers it's decidedly underwhelming, compared to actually landing a solid AP volley.

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On 5/9/2019 at 6:47 PM, Cagliostro_chan said:

As said, my issue is that tier for tier, Lion loses out on dpm over Monarch 

Out now so I dont have the numbers but i would assume that with the reload mod installed, lion's reload would either be equal or faster than Monarch's. At worse it'll be slightly slower.

 

Il have to disagree with you overall. I feel that the lion is an improvement over the monarch. But that's me :Smile_veryhappy:

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6 hours ago, pra3y said:

Out now so I dont have the numbers but i would assume that with the reload mod installed, lion's reload would either be equal or faster than Monarch's. At worse it'll be slightly slower.

 

Il have to disagree with you overall. I feel that the lion is an improvement over the monarch. But that's me :Smile_veryhappy:

With reload mod, Lion is at 27 seconds compared to Monarch's 25. In absolute terms this means that without reload mod, Lion has less dpm than Monarch on the stock gun option and barely more on the improved guns (at least in AP dpm, HE dpm Monarch even beats the upgraded Lion without reload module). For going up a tier, this is imo a pretty terrible deal, because if you compare every other T8 to T9 upgrade:

  • Iowa is the only true repeat, which has only slightly better AP dpm, but gets at least better shell velocity (Lion loses shell velocity compared to Monarch) and the choice in module on whether you want to have the better dispersion or better reload, in which case it is a dpm upgrade.
  • Izumo guns are miles better than what Amagi offers, as you lose a gun, but you get improved accuracy and improved shell velocity (both areas where Lion stays the same or gets worse. Lion only gets improved fire chance pretty much). With reload mod, you also no longer lose dpm.
  • Alsace is almost a 50% upgrade in dpm over Richelieu even without reload mod.
  • FdG gets better dpm already without module, but with the reload module you are only rivalled by the Jean Bart in reload on bigger guns than Bismarck.

Tier for tier, Monarch just is the highest dpm in both areas by a far greater margin than Lion is over its competition (except FdG, Musashi, Jean Bart and Alsace, which it cannot beat). Thus, strictly speaking, sure, the Lion is an upgrade to the Monarch, but even in a T10 match, I rather take a Monarch knowing the enemy gets an extra T8 than picking Lion and having an extra T9 on the enemy team. Both in terms of what it means for the team and what it means for my own ship, with the possibility that the extra T9 is a Musashi for which the Lion is just free damage. Top tier, I still rather take the Monarch, given its T8 qualities combined with the incredible reload make it just that much more useful as a top tier ship than Lion is among its peers in a T7-9 match.

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I always went for the extra gun range with that last module on Lion. Unlike Monarch, which I think is pretty short range guns at around 18k. At least with the Lion the option is there to extend the shooting range to around 24k with that last module. DMP means nothing really unless you're always in-range to shoot at something. The Lion if you extend the shooting range will generally get more shots off throughout a match, seeing as more ships at distance then become available to shoot at more often.

 

Seemed like a no brainier to me on that last slot to extend the fire range, the ship by default doesn't have long range guns at T9/10 level without it.

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9 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

FdG gets better dpm already without module, but with the reload module you are only rivalled by the Jean Bart in reload on bigger guns than Bismarck.

The FdG has far better secondary guns than Bismark. Forget how many secondary guns each one has, or even the range. Look instead at the pen rate on the secondary compared to Bismark on those smallest 105mm secondary guns. They get much better pen rate added on FdG compared to Bismark, which I think only has something like (without checking) 17mm pen (so they don't go past that needed 19mm pen) to be much more effective without IFHE skilled used. While FdG gets something like 25mm pen on the same 105mm secondary.

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39 minutes ago, TheScarletPimpernel said:

The FdG has far better secondary guns than Bismark. Forget how many secondary guns each one has, or even the range. Look instead at the pen rate on the secondary compared to Bismark on those smallest 105mm secondary guns. They get much better pen rate added on FdG compared to Bismark, which I think only has something like (without checking) 17mm pen (so they don't go past that needed 19mm pen) to be much more effective without IFHE skilled used. While FdG gets something like 25mm pen on the same 105mm secondary.

They have the exact same secondary guns, and exact same number of secondaries, the FDG just has IFHE built in for all of them, while Bismark only gets the bonus on her 150's.

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8 hours ago, lafeel said:

They have the exact same secondary guns, and exact same number of secondaries, the FDG just has IFHE built in for all of them, while Bismark only gets the bonus on her 150's.

Yeah, the good thing about FDG compared to Bismark. You can take DE skill and increase the fire chance on all guns without needing IFHE (which would only bring the fire chance back down when taking that skill) in combo with DE. Bismark needs IFHE to get the best out of those smaller 105mm secondary on pen, they won't pen much at 17mm.

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23 minutes ago, TheScarletPimpernel said:

Yeah, the good thing about FDG compared to Bismark. You can take DE skill and increase the fire chance on all guns without needing IFHE (which would only bring the fire chance back down when taking that skill) in combo with DE. Bismark needs IFHE to get the best out of those smaller 105mm secondary on pen, they won't pen much at 17mm.

For now. Assuming those rumours of a fire chance nerf to the ifhe skill are accurate of course..

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7 hours ago, TheScarletPimpernel said:

Yeah, the good thing about FDG compared to Bismark. You can take DE skill and increase the fire chance on all guns without needing IFHE (which would only bring the fire chance back down when taking that skill) in combo with DE. Bismark needs IFHE to get the best out of those smaller 105mm secondary on pen, they won't pen much at 17mm.

Why would you though? Get IFHE and those 105s on FdG pen 32 mm plating, getting good damage on pretty much any cruiser and most BBs.

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I never said anything about taking IFHE on FDG, I was saying the opposite, that you don't need it on FDG

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1 hour ago, TheScarletPimpernel said:

I never said anything about taking IFHE on FDG, I was saying the opposite, that you don't need it on FDG

That's like saying you don't use IFHE on Akizuki. It's not mandatory, but you sure as hell would want it or you can just ignore having secondaries.

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So why do you need IFHE on FDG when it has 25mm pen on its smallest secondary guns.

 

You would only really take IFHE when the pen is under 19mm on the smallest secondary guns, like it is on many other BB ships such as Bismark, Jean Bart, Matti and other BBs. So the smallest secondary guns can pen more ships. 25mm pen on the smallest secondary guns with FDG doesn't really need IFHE. Sure, you can still put IFHE on the ship and take the 105mm secondary guns to 30+ pen, but why waste 4 skill points on IFHE with FDG that will not only reduce the fire chance, but could be better spent on CE or FP, seeing as the secondary just don't need IFHE

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