Cruisers?

[twoCannonsLess]

Thanks, is IFHE a skill I should have on all mid tier cruisers?

[The_Pillager]

Nope, not necessarily on all of them.

 

Its a matter of the size of the guns.

On all 15 cm gun cruisers (and DD gunboats) IFHE is a reasonable investment. It costs you some percentage in fire chance, but direct damage gets better a lot.

On all 20 cm gun cruisers IFHE ist not necessary. Their pen is high enough to do direct damage.

The russian 18 cm guns are kind of weirdos in between. I do have IFHE on Kirov and Dimitri Donskoi (and Molotov of course).

[rnat]

1 hour ago, The_Pillager said:

The russian 18 cm guns are kind of weirdos in between. I do have IFHE on Kirov and Dimitri Donskoi (and Molotov of course)

I wouldn't put it on the Kirov tbh. The 180mm guns have 29mm pen, that's enough for basically any plating you can see at T7 (unless you desperately want to pen the Furutakas upper belt ^^)

and IFHE is not enough to bring you into the 40mm+ regime some super-dreadnoughts have on their reinforced decks.

[The_Pillager]

Absolutely true, as you say it.

 

Dunno why my Kirov skipper has IFHE, but i am sure i skilled it that way.

On Dimi I would not want to miss it, though.

[twoCannonsLess]

Thanks, I haven't really focused on a DD line ever since I got the PA DDs to t6. I think I will try the US DDs

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, rnat said:

I wouldn't put it on the Kirov tbh. The 180mm guns have 29mm pen, that's enough for basically any plating you can see at T7 (unless you desperately want to pen the Furutakas upper belt ^^)

and IFHE is not enough to bring you into the 40mm+ regime some super-dreadnoughts have on their reinforced decks.

Quite a few midtier BBs have deck platings within reach of IFHE'd 180mm (38mm)

Kongo/Fuso

Konig, also Bayern lower deck and bit of the bow

Orion

Bretagne/Normandie/Lyon deck

actually, only Bayern upper deck, Iron Duke and Scharnhorst class are out of reach for IFHE'd 180mm, excluding obvious armor belts and such

 

People take IFHE on Henri IV simply to counter two specific ships, here you have more options

And Furutaka/Aoba/Myoko hull is 25mm, well within reach of default HE pen on 180mms

 

If premium Molotov or some faildivisioning is on order, then IFHE is even more needed for 32mm breakpoint (and then North Carolina and South Dakota class decks)

[rnat]

8 minutes ago, Panocek said:

People take IFHE on Henri IV simply to counter two specific ships, here you have more options

That is only in competitive.

In Randoms it also enables it to pen the central deck on German BBs.

[The_Pillager]

Yep, IFHE Henris are just ... pure evil ... 

[twoCannonsLess]

Thanks for the advice on IFHE,

 

Btw, I was looking at UK BBs armour layout, it looked like their citadel is underwater, does this mean they can't be citadeled?

[rnat]

8 minutes ago, twoCannonsLess said:

Btw, I was looking at UK BBs armour layout, it looked like their citadel is underwater, does this mean they can't be citadeled?

They can be but it typically either takes slow, heavy shells or shells shot from a distance to reach the citadel.

Read: It makes them citadel-resistant but not citadel-proof.

[The_Pillager]

The most citadel-resistant ships should be the german BB, still.

 

Their turtleback armor scheme makes them really hard to citadel at midrange or in a brawl.

[twoCannonsLess]

Thanks

[twoCannonsLess]

Are RN DDs good for beginners?

[rnat]

7 hours ago, twoCannonsLess said:

Are RN DDs good for beginners?

No. RN DDs and CLs both are lines best suited for more experienced players.

By all means give them a try, their gameplay might be right up your alley, especially if you don't progress past T4 where it's generally easier

but be warned that it might not be as fun from mid-tiers on if you don't have the experience to make them work.

[The_Pillager]

2 cents from a hobby DD skipper ... (not good enough to claim any legacy):

if you leave aside arguments, that come into effect only at higher tiers, DD-play at lower and middtier is defined for me by the question: how comfortable does it play.

As a beginner DD are not easy to manage, need a lot of map awareness (which usually is not there at this stage) and so everything that makes DD play easier is fine.

 

Personally i dont like the RN DD because of the short smoke duration. Its a trademark, so nothing to be done about it, but imo it makes the handling of RN DD difficult. In every other aspect they are solid DD with the hydro consumable.

The US DD were difficult for me at first. I did not like the short torprange at lower tiers and the gunnery ... needs getting used to ... a lot. Once you get the trick with that orbital guns, they are fine allrounders. They definitely get my vote

IJN DD always were the most simple to play: torpedoes only, guns in desperate situations. That changed a lot. From T8 on there are frightening gunboats now as an alternative. I like my Kitakaze ... a lot 

Its interesting, that some japanese DD have astonishingly good AA ... Hatsuharu, I m looking at you, better AA than some light cruisers.

 

I once again stress my sympathies for the panasian. 

Once I got the trick that you cant torp other DD, they were most fun for me. Panasian DD have the highest damage and Xp in my stats and over all I am definietly a pretty average DD skipper at best.

These DW torps are so fast and hard to detect, any target has only half the reaction time compared to normal torps. And they hit like trucks.

I enjoy them most, I have to admit 

 

So back to start:

no, me personally I would not recommend RN DD for someone unexperienced

[twoCannonsLess]

Do RN DDs teach bad habits?

[The_Pillager]

no, not really bad habbits.

Its more of a certain playstyle that gets dictated by the specialities of the ships.

 

RN DD have very short smoke duration, but a lot of smokes. Means, you cant comfortably sit in smoke and farm lots of damage because after 40 seconds you are visible again

US DD should be the opposite: long smoke duration, but fewer smokes. You can sit almost 2 minutes in smoke with a US DD and fire away at targets

Panasian DD urge you to play different again, because you cant fight other DD with your torps

and so on ...

 

The trademarks of the ships and nations dictate the playstyle.

Stay flexible and test them all 

[twoCannonsLess]

Thanks, I might try them because apparently they have single fire torps which could be nice.

[twoCannonsLess]

Are the RN DDs hybrid or gunboat or torpedo boat?

[Panocek]

52 minutes ago, twoCannonsLess said:

Thanks, I might try them because apparently they have single fire torps which could be nice.

 

46 minutes ago, twoCannonsLess said:

Are the RN DDs hybrid or gunboat or torpedo boat?

Hybrids and IMO of the bad end, guns with okay dps but mediocre ballistics until tier 8 Lightning and short-ish ranged torps. Single torps option opens up some nice possibilities, though I find UK DDs average, combining only "okay" speeds without option of Engine Boost, average-mediocre concealment (with Lightning and premium Cossack being exception). Tier 9 and 10 require IFHE to make their HE shells actually do damage to 19mm plating (DD hulls, BB superstructures) due to too small caliber, AP is buffed though so akin to RN cruisers, you might get by without IFHE. Add to that gimmicky smoke and "defensive", as in short ranged but long lasting Hydroacoustic Search, so unless very close you can't bully other DDs out like German DDs, but you can spot torps for quite long time

 

 

And this is my problem with WoWs - in terms of content it seems far and wide like ocean, but actual depth is like a puddle. Destroyers in general are perfect example - initial three lines - USN, IJN and RU covers every niche you would expect from destroyer. USN covers short range gunnery and cap contests and on later tiers, torpedo boat niche, IJN are (usually) high concealment torpedo boats and Russians are long range and high speed fire support. Germans got pressed into that triangle with stupid smoke+hydro combo with gun and torp stats being something in between with concealment taking a hit. Any next line adds exceptions and gimmicks simply to stay relevant while (usually) trying to not render old lines obsolete, which in turn makes new line questionable - why I'd want new French destroyers if they are going to straight up be inferior to Russian gunboats at actual gunnery, while torps are making IJN skippers blush with no smoke nor heal in return to make up for mistakes? Why I'd want UK destroyer for cap fights if I already have USN, unless they have crucial stat advantage like Lightning/Cossack concealment or actually effective gimmick like German hydro on Z-52?

[lafeel]

38 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Hybrids and IMO of the bad end, guns with okay dps but mediocre ballistics

This having been said, a Jervis in the hands of someone that has gotten the hang of aiming in her is a scary sight indeed.

[Panocek]

Just now, lafeel said:

This having been said, a Jervis in the hands of someone that has gotten the hang of aiming in her is a scary sight indeed.

And Gadjah Mada is the same but have Engine Boost for extra speed, 200m better concealment, much better smoke and 1km longer torps which makes her superior unless you count on torping other DDs on regular basis.

[lafeel]

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And Gadjah Mada is the same but have Engine Boost for extra speed, 200m better concealment, much better smoke and 1km longer torps which makes her superior unless you count on torping other DDs on regular basis.

Even if you don't actually hit them with the torps, torpedoes are a great psychological weapon in DD v DD combat, forces the other guy to maneuver wildly, throwing off his aim.

 

I am not saying Jervis is a better boat than the Gadjah, I in fact agree that considering everything the Gadjah is the better boat of the two. But this does not mean the Jervis is bad either.

[twoCannonsLess]

Thanks, I might try RN DDs to see if I like them.

[Verblonde]

13 hours ago, twoCannonsLess said:

Are RN DDs good for beginners?

In my view, not so much: although they exhibit a lot of fairly typical DD traits, the precise combination makes them somewhat distant from being 'easy mode' if you aren't familiar with DDs already, via other lines.

4 hours ago, twoCannonsLess said:

Do RN DDs teach bad habits?

I don't believe so, particularly, but the learning curve will be very steep for most people if they don't know how to play DDs already.

 

FWIW, my perspective on RN DDs (I'm average, at best, and that's on a good day):

• Firstly, they are some of my favourite DDs in the game, but I have to be awake to do well with them - they aren't a 'chill out' line by any means.
• They are hybrids, but you absolutely need to use the guns if you want to do damage; they are also quite stealthy - meshing these two contradictory aspects is where much of the skill comes in. You have to blow your cover to do maximum damage, so picking your moments wisely is key.
• You get your first stealth torp window at T6 (I think, but it needs a CE captain); T7 is where the ships start to really come together IMO.
• Torps are single fire, but that requires a bit more skill to get the most out of; the guns give a healthy amount of dakka, but the arcs are rather unhelpful (learn to shoot with floaty shells with the US DDs first, I would suggest).
• Although short-ranged, the hydro is excellent - the long duration can make you functionally immune to torps (assuming you can dodge) for an absurd amount of time - on premium/higher tiers, I often run the magic hydro upgrade (available for coal, via the Arsenal) for even longer run time.
• You get lots of smoke, but it doesn't last long; it's great for breaking contact, and short bursts of smoked-up dakka, but the latter requires careful judgement to do properly.
• It helps a lot to have good situational awareness: you're very sneaky (T8s are only out-spotted by the 'Kagero sisters', and only by about 100m +/-), but if you want to damage - as mentioned before - you have to open fire with guns; doing this without getting turned into smoking boots by enemy ships requires good awareness of who is where on the map, and what their lines of sight look like.
• The top two tiers require high-point captains (even more so than usual); although not 100% consensus, the general view is that you need IFHE to maximise damage - that calls for *at least* a 14-pointer (as not taking CE as well is asking for trouble).

So, I would learn to DD with other lines (US for similar gunfire, and KM for the introduction to - longer ranged, admittedly - hydro), and then pick the RN DDs for your third of fourth line, perhaps...