IFHE on Massachusetts?

[ronin_hr]

Hi,

 

I have been running IFHE on Massachusetts for some time now, but I just noticed that under the skills tab, there is a note that IFHE is inefficient on this ship. I am a bit confused now since the description says that IFHE is affecting main and secondaries up to caliber 139mm, and Massa has 10x 2 127mm secondaries. 

 

Any thoughts? Should I ignore the note or is IFHE really inefficient on Massa?

[WashedandDeceased]

In short - yes, on this occasion ignore the warning

[The_Finnster]

Ignore. A full secondary IFHE build is not only fun but effective.

[ronin_hr]

Great, thanks

[ColonelPete]

The recommendations/warnings are for the main gun.

[Miscommunication_dept]

Do it!

If you want concealment as well I would advise dropping manual secondaries as they are still rather accurate

[DFens_666]

47 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Do it!

If you want concealment as well I would advise dropping manual secondaries as they are still rather accurate

 

I felt dropping AFT makes more sense in order to get CE. But so far, the experience has been "meh" anyway, because of all the camping going on.

[Oswalia]

Post the IFHE changes?

 

I would be interested to know peeps thoughts.

 

 

[Jethro_Grey]

Not worth it.

[Sargento_YO]

I have been thinking that BB secondary builds are useless now. You need to use IFHE to make them hurt something. But if you take it your fire chance would be cut in half which hurts alot. But without IFHE none of the shells would penetrate any Cruiser armor.

[Oswalia]

I am a feeble noob, but my fires from Massachusetts this evening were pathetic. 

[Sargento_YO]

2 minutes ago, Oswalia said:

I am a feeble noob, but my fires from Massachusetts this evening were pathetic. 

For instance, Massachusetts has a fire chance of 36% for main guns and 5% for secondaries, if you take IFHE that would be reduced to 18% and 2,5%

[Aragathor]

1 hour ago, Sargento_YO said:

I have been thinking that BB secondary builds are useless now. You need to use IFHE to make them hurt something. But if you take it your fire chance would be cut in half which hurts alot. But without IFHE none of the shells would penetrate any Cruiser armor.

Well, WG promised last year that they will do something with secondaries to improve them. "Improve" in WGs dictionary means nerf them to the ground.

French BBs and the American premium line BBs have been hit with a massive nerf thanks to the IFHE rework, and there is no hope in sight for an improvement.

 

Remember everyone, this change was well tested and based on extensive spreadsheet calculations. The nerf was intended.

[Oswalia]

Well, speaking as a MPG old fart (England team 20 yrs ago MTW, we were pwned by Italy as per usual!), maybe 2ndry build MA was OP!

 

xxx

[Jethro_Grey]

Well, I am actually disappointed that nobody complained about the IFHE rework while it was in testing. 

Now, there’s no chance that WG will change it back or fix this utter mess. 

 

 

[DFens_666]

29 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Well, I am actually disappointed that nobody complained about the IFHE rework while it was in testing. 

Now, there’s no chance that WG will change it back or fix this utter mess. 

 

 

 

I dont think we ever had a chance... they do what they wanna do anyway. Took them more than half a year to get the gun bloom how 90% of the community wanted it.

[Miscommunication_dept]

2 hours ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Well, I am actually disappointed that nobody complained about the IFHE rework while it was in testing. 

Now, there’s no chance that WG will change it back or fix this utter mess. 

 

 

When announced Wargaming had already carried out many calculations to come up with their new armour schemes and new rules regarding HE penetration etc. A lot of work was done before any announcement. There was never any chance of convincing Wargaming to stop it.

 

I'm fairly happy with it so far, finding light cruisers without IFHE surprisingly effective.

 

 

[Yedwy]

@OP 

 

Well Massa IFHE is effective vs majority of cruisers in its MM spread  and some lower tier BBs, is it worth investing 4 points though IDK

[DFens_666]

5 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

@OP 

 

Well Massa IFHE is effective vs majority of cruisers in its MM spread  and some lower tier BBs, is it worth investing 4 points though IDK

 

Id say its a bit less useful than before (due to cruiser plating change) if you just look at raw damage output

However, the bigger impact is actually the firechance. While you lost 1% prior, you lose 2,5% now. And you even lose like 18?% on your mainbattery. Might make a difference if you need to fire HE at a bowtanking BB.

[Panocek]

2 hours ago, Jethro_Grey said:

Well, I am actually disappointed that nobody complained about the IFHE rework while it was in testing. 

Now, there’s no chance that WG will change it back or fix this utter mess. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure WG got at least some "feedback" when they reposted three times the same IFHE changes in devblog part of the forums since July '19.

[Jethro_Grey]

2 hours ago, gopher31 said:

When announced Wargaming had already carried out many calculations to come up with their new armour schemes and new rules regarding HE penetration etc. A lot of work was done before any announcement. There was never any chance of convincing Wargaming to stop it.

 

I'm fairly happy with it so far, finding light cruisers without IFHE surprisingly effective.

 

 

Yes. They calculated, then they added the results to the spread shiet.

The same spread shiet that says that Smolensk is fine and that CVs are even finer.

2 hours ago, Panocek said:

I'm pretty sure WG got at least some "feedback" when they reposted three times the same IFHE changes in devblog part of the forums since July '19.

WG doesn't give a flying frak about feedback.

In the pas 1 1/2 years, they ignored EVERY bit of feedback provided by CCs and the community.

[Panocek]

51 minutes ago, Jethro_Grey said:

WG doesn't give a flying frak about feedback.

In the pas 1 1/2 years, they ignored EVERY bit of feedback provided by CCs and the community.

You don't say

 

You can't quite say no one b!tched about IFHE changes though.

[aboomination]

IFHE isn't worth it anymore on Mass - the broad usefulness against cruisers is gone and the fire chance drop kills it completely.

But now the 127s (without IFHE) are more effective against BBs due to more fires, and against DDs they are as strong as they have always been.

Specced into Fire Prevention and am enjoying a slightly more tanky Mass now.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

On 3/12/2019 at 6:57 PM, ronin_hr said:

Hi,

 

I have been running IFHE on Massachusetts for some time now, but I just noticed that under the skills tab, there is a note that IFHE is inefficient on this ship. I am a bit confused now since the description says that IFHE is affecting main and secondaries up to caliber 139mm, and Massa has 10x 2 127mm secondaries. 

 

Any thoughts? Should I ignore the note or is IFHE really inefficient on Massa?

 

Pleas echeck most excellent @LittleWhiteMousethread on NA Forum:

 

"IFHE All Night Long"

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/213359-ifhe-all-night-long/

 

there whe explained in detail everything you need to know about it (she is explaining Atlanta - but guns are same):

 

Quote

Let's start with a diagram of ship layout so we're all on the same page.

Now let's get out the numbers:

• 127mm/38 HE Penetration:  21mm
• 127mm/38 IFHE Penetration: 26mm

Those are our two important numbers to keep in mind.  Now let's start the list of important armour benchmarks that exceed 21mm in general terms:

• 25mm - Found on cruisers, placement depends on tier.  Bow & sterns, upper hull and deck armour.
• 26mm - Found on tier VI and VII battleship structural plate.  Bow & sterns, upper hull and deck armour of select ships.
• 27mm - Found on cruisers, placement depends on tier.  Bow & sterns, upper hull and deck armour.
• 30mm - Found on cruisers, largely limited to very high tier.  Upper hull and deck armour.
• 32mm - Found on battleships at tier VIII+.  Bow & sterns, upper hull and deck armour.

There are additional benchmarks beyond this, but for the sake of just talking about 127mm destroyer caliber guns, this will suffice.  So now let's take a look at Atlanta (tier VII) specifically.  Here are the respective MINIMUM armour values for the various targets she will face, divided by ship type and tier. These will be listed in the following order:  Bow & stern / Superstructure / Upper Hull / Deck.

• Tier V Cruisers:  13/10/16/16  -  In practice, most of the tier V cruisers have in excess of 19mm deck armour.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS.
• Tier V Battleships:  19/13/19/13 -  Tier V battleships have highly dispersed armour values, with upper hulls varying from 19mm up to 203mm -- there's lots of areas to shatter.  Similarly, deck armour ranges from a minimum of 13mm  to having sections up to 44mm.  Still, their snoots and butts tend to be squishy.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS.
   
• Tier VI Heavy Cruisers:  16/13/25/25 - This includes Graf Spee, Aoba, Pensacola, Devonshire, London and Trento.  All of these ships were buffed significantly and their hulls and decks can no longer be penetrated by Atlanta's HE shells unless you have IFHE.  Note that their bow and sterns and superstructures are still vulnerable.  IFHE helps here!
• Tier VI Light Cruisers:  16/10/16/25 - These ships largely got buffed, gaining thicker deck armour.  Some lost a little superstructure protection but that's generally laughable.  Still, their deck armour will now shatter Atlanta's base HE.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS BUT IT HELPS A LITTLE.
• Tier VI Very Light Cruisers:  13/10/16/13 - This is only Leander (Perth and Huanghe got buffed up to Light cruisers!).  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS.
• Tier VI Battleships:  26/16/26/26 - All tier VI battleships had their armour increased by a crucial 1mm.  This doesn't affect Atlanta much -- she always needed IFHE to directly damage these ships before and she still needs it now.  Do note that a lot of Tier VI battleships have dispersed armour schemes with armour thick enough to shatter Atlanta's shells.  Still, "All or Nothing" ships begin appearing at this tier so there are some squishies to pick on. IFHE helps here.
   
• Tier VII Heavy Cruisers:  16/13/25/25 - These share their Tier VI armour values, however beware of the occasional oddball with 27mm+ armour sections in these areas.  This includes Myoko (and her clones), New Orleans, Indianapolis, Yorck, Surrey, Algerie, Zara and Gorizia.  For Atlanta, a lot of ships now have upper hulls and decks that can no longer be directly damaged without IFHE.  IFHE helps here!
• Tier VII Light Cruisers:  16/10/16/25 - As per the tier VI light cruisers.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS BUT IT HELPS A LITTLE.
• Tier VII Very Light Cruisers:  13/10/13/13  This includes Atlanta, Fiji and Flint.  These are all soft-skinned ships.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS.
• Tier VII Battleships:  26mm/16mm/26mm/26mm - More and more All or Nothing armour values appear here though there are still a few dispersed armour schemes.  Nothing has changed from 9.1 for Atlanta -- she needs IFHE to directly damage these ships.  IFHE helps here!
   
• Tier VIII German & American Heavy Cruisers:  27/16/27/27 - This includes Baltimore, Wichita, Admiral Hipper & Prinz Eugen.  These ships are now nearly immune to Atlanta's 127mm HE, even with IFHE.  IFHE DOES NOTHING.
• Tier VIII Heavy Cruisers:  25/16/27/27 - This includes Mogami, Atago, Albermarle, Cheshire, Wukong, Charles Martel & Amalfi.  A lot of the holes in their armour scheme have been patched up.  They are only vulnerable to Atlanta's HE shells on their bow & sterns and superstructures -- with the former only possible with IFHE.  IFHE helps here but you have to aim!
• Tier VIII Light Cruisers:  25/13/25/27 - This includes Cleveland, Montpelier, Chapayev, Mikhail Kutuzov, Irian and Bayard.  Atlanta needs IFHE to damage anything other than superstructures.  Their decks are proof against her shells though.  IFHE helps here!
• Tier VIII Very Light Cruisers:  16/13/19/19 - Just Edinburgh.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS.
   
• Tier IX German & American Heavy Cruisers:  27/16/27/27 - As per the tier VIIIs.  IFHE DOES NOTHING.
• Tier IX Heavy Cruisers:  25/16/27/27 - As per the tier VIIIs. IFHE helps here but you have to aim!
• Tier IX Light Cruisers:  25/13/25/27 - There's only two here:  Seattle & Dmitri Donskoi.  IFHE helps here!
• Tier IX Very Light Cruisers:  16/13/16/16 - Neptune has worse armour than Edinburgh, not that it matters.  Both have used tissue-paper for protection.  YOU DO NOT NEED IFHE TO FACE THESE TARGETS.

Okay, so as you can see there's a lot of back and forth here.  Generally speaking, it boils down to this:

IFHE allows Atlanta to directly damage tier VI and tier VII battleships with HE shells, along with tier VI and VII Heavy Cruisers and select tier VIII and IX cruisers.  She could not easily directly damage these targets otherwise.  This comes at the expense of halving her fire chance.

Now Atlanta doesn't pay very much for IFHE -- not compared to other ships.  Keep in mind, while her fire chance is halved, she's only losing 2.5% fire chance.  It's easy to make up that value with commander skills and signals.  Here's her fires per minute (fpm) with 100% accuracy and before fire mitigation from the target ship:

• 8.4 fpm - Stock Atlanta.
• 4.2 fpm - Stock Atlanta with IFHE
• 14.78 fpm - Basic Fire Training, Demolition Expert, both signals.
• 10.16 fpm - Basic Fire Training, Demolition Expert, both signals + IFHE.

She's still a credible fire bug if you specialize her right.  I'd argue that she really doesn't give up that much for Inertial Fuse for HE Shells.  If she were a tier higher, then it tends to stop being worthwhile as she faces more and more ships that have in excess of 27mm worth of protection.  This is generally why on Massachusetts, it's a pass on her secondaries.  I mean, you CAN, but it's just not as worthwhile.

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Allied_Winter]

Followed LWM's advice and dropped IFHE on Massa. Currently running: FP, AFT and ManSec.