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Zuihou_Kai

personal opinion on WG, CV, no tldr

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i didn't really plan on creating a topic like this but after i sent this text to a player as a private message i decided to post it here. I WILL NOT discuss what i say in this text, nor will i defend it or claim it as facts. This is just me telling how i see the game and how it benefits me personally with showing my views on Wargaming too. I will probably respond to people asking me questions but i will not discuss any balancing or other things. Just wanted to share this with you. If you are not interested, move on pls and anyone who reads it, thank you for hearing my opinion!

 

 

 

"can understand now better how you feel about it all. I just think that we view it completely differently.

 

For me personally WG didn't really break much trust. I don't lose out on anything because of some broken promises and they are in my eyes trying to improve the game for all types of players, the below averages while trying to not screw with the better pöayers, the unicums and all. I think it hurts them as much as any one of them who are suffering. Sometimes these sacrifices are made to try to get th players who just can't invest the time to be able to play all shipclasses to a level where they don't feel like they underperform heavily, don't get cussed at by their team and have fun, mediocre performance or not the goal is to make it more accessible for all player types. Sacrifices have been made to try and get more players involved and the difficulties that are presenting themselves to WG right now sure weight heavily on all the developments teams shoulders.

 

Their work towards balancing this rework has been full of effort, they are communicating as openly as they can. I have never seen during my gaming experience any developer trying to be in touch with their community and listen as WG does but they obviously can't just go around fullfilling all wishes at once. Community response can exploit this openess which we saw in the rushed hotfixes that only after 4 hotfixes lead to a somewhat balanced experience as a CV and as any other class encountering CV.

Sure there still is work that needs to be done. I am bracing myself already, trying to think of solutions to coming nerfs to possibly divebombers while hoping for buffs (nerfs against blob AA).

 

In a recent training room experiment i did with my clan i tried to see how hard it is to injure or kill 2 cruisers staying together communicating their fighter consumeable and DFAA to prepare for possible CB CV implementation and the result was pitiful for me and in favor for them because after 13 minutes i could only manage to bring both down to half their HP, of course in a full team setup with an enemy CV providing fighter support or other ships catching my priority my overall influence just diminishes more and more ( the spotting i provide obviously changes things in my favor (enemy Cv spots for them as well).

It changes things but doesn't make it impossoble and in my opinion it adds a new interesting element to think about!

it just makes me very excited thinking about it alone and writing about it too.

 

Random battles right now also have changed and people are adapting to the rework. I feel it every day i add to my playtime. It gets harder and harder to perform at the level i do right now. I have games where i can't even touch the enemy team finishing with 100k dmg and one kill, most times the kill is a DD and the rest of the damage is healable dot spread amon gst 4 to 5 ships. Opportunity targets... my influence diminishes. Spotting doesn't matter if your random team doesn't shoot what you spot. Sometimes i feel powerless searching for ways to work around it, trying constantly to improve. Then i get this game where i get 7 kills, 6 kills and still lose. The kills come to late into the match because of lacking alpha and i'm totally fine with thaf otherwise i would probably kill the whole enemy team alone but it sends a message that it's a team game after all and no matter your individual performance things will go south if the others around you misplay.

CV really needs communication now with others who communicate back. Quickcommands, responding or giving them helps, reducing the negativity in chat, spreading more positive messages, sending a Well Done! on a crucial kill raises team morale and your chances to win a match together increase! I have never felt that way in my RTS CV.

 

When i played RTS i killed ships as i pleased, controlled the pace, the enemy CV started to become a nonfactor for my team once i established air superiority. It was to easy. The wait times for your squadrons was sometimes a bit to long, i always had youtube running with documentaries or gaming channels in the background to listen to or watch while mercilessly striking the enemy team easily.

The games where i got challenged were to scarce.

 

Since the rework i am actually always in the game, actively doing something. No more time to listen to youtube anymore, i need full concentration, see the opportunities, make the right decisions, which target to strike?Os my damage wasted if i strike the lone BB on the far west? Should i strike the DD regardless of there being a DM nearby? When i commit to striking such DD i dodge flak, pay attention on if enemy CV is going to interrupt me or not, check is DFAA running?How fast are my planes dying? Is the DD turning? Will i get 2 Dives or maybe 3? Will i have enough divebombers to co tinue after killing the D D?

Is there any impact? All these things constantly running through my hat wuile action is happening on my screen.

Sometimes when i strike with my DBs, while aiming the DBs i open the map to adjust the autopilot before releasing the bombs because i get so close to the action with my CV. Constant awareness.

 

I have never felt i was in the game so much before. Thats why i love the rework.

And why i want to defend it too. It just excites me and brings me alot of fun.

 

I of course feel bad for the DD that decided to go alone, trying his best while not being able to counter my divebombers but that's the only way i can influence the match to my teams favor in that particular moment. When i play DD myself i apply all the knowledge i gain while playing CV. I see the mistakes enemy DDs made against my CV behavior and avoid doing them and have massive success!

It just feels good succeeding in it that much.

 

Then it comes to me and my interaction with my clanmembers! I teach them every day in the training room! They mostly don't like the CV rework either. All of them are older then 40, they play the game to the best of their abilities but they are not open to change but i try my best to show them the things that are possible if they get the right knowledge fed to them. I show them how to correctly use the "P" Button. How to avoid rockets, that DBs are their true worry. I explain to them how to dodge strikes, play with speed, to smoke up early. They are leaving the training rooms excited and happy and saying i improved their perspective on the rework that way.

 

Once you commit yourself to these changes (i don't mean you particularly) one can surely do great even in the reworked CV meta. I think people just need to be a bit more accepting towards the change and put a bit more trust back into WG to balance things out for everyone to be able to have a good experience.

 

Once again i really feel for the losses of the players who totally can't come to terms with the rework like you. And i really don't want to come over like a prophet or something but more like providing my view as someone who both liked the old system and now likes the new one. It just feels better for me personally.

 

So i hope that everyone gains a bit as they lost a bit out of this rework"

 

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Thank you for your honesty & bravery. o7

I just hope that if a DD nails you that you equally feel that (s)he was doing his/her job and it wasn't personal.

I'm glad that you are helping your fellow players in improving both their gameplay and the game itself.

Edited by Cambera_1
inclusiveness
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That's quite a nice post too be honest. Because im not a good player i always found myself fully concentrating regardless of mode (rts or tps). Also nice to know your taking the time to teach people the in's and out's as well.

 

I just wish CV's had other utilities like dropping smoke or a small spotting bobbing boye, something more team based but i guess that can wait.

 

I have to admit games damages vary quite a bit from around 36k in my ranger to as much as 89k (what i managed so far after 8.1.1) and i've noticed that my influence isn't as strong as it was. Although in some situations where you need to spot the last ships in a point based game mode and your dead can make your blood pressure raise to no end lol.

 

now for yorkie and misss booooogue to appear.

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I am older then 40, but i love the rework :-)

 

I have to admit when still in RTS days reading about the changes i didn't know if i would like such huge changes. But once adapted - for me a day - i was very pleased with the rework.

 

I also play all classes and i do not encounter the problems so much players complainend about in these other classes. But to be fair, i only started playing other classes again after CV use dropped significantly ( and so did i obviously ). It is my opinion no CV nerf was ever needed if MM had not be configured to allow more then 1 CV per side in matches. I know why WG did that, but it is at the base of much of the complaining. CV are not overpowered, but their aircraft were omnipresent in matches herassing the hell out of mainly DD players that had become acustomed to moving undetected. And that was a bit too much. That is gone now, CV player base is (almost) back to normal. Missions that need 30 aircraft to be shot down are even tough to complete !

 

But i see positive adaptation too : ships moving with an escort ( BB with AA cruiser ) DD sneaking through gaps in the line intending to hunt the CV, less pitfighting over caps early in the game leading to qucik DD losses and more....the game HAS improved, but those that cling to the old ways may not like adapting. But they will adapt too.

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

When i played RTS i killed ships as i pleased, controlled the pace, the enemy CV started to become a nonfactor for my team once i established air superiority. It was to easy.

 

Well, great. Now you simply don't have to deal with the enemy CV anymore which makes things far easier. All you need to do is outdamage your opponent which you inevitably will by virtue of being more skilled. Instead of becoming a liability during the match your opponent becomes a liability simply by getting put into said match.

 

18 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

Since the rework i am actually always in the game, actively doing something. No more time to listen to youtube anymore, i need full concentration, see the opportunities, make the right decisions, which target to strike?Os my damage wasted if i strike the lone BB on the far west? Should i strike the DD regardless of there being a DM nearby?

 

Man, it is almost as if you never needed to make such decisions with the RTS iteration. /s

 

Tell you what, your so called more demanding playstyle is actually nothing but a delusion. You are tricked into thinking you require more concentration and better decision making skills by the much quicker pace of reworked CV play. However because reworked CV play is faster it automatically dumbs down your decision making process. A failed strike has far less impact because you can return and try again in only 30 seconds instead of 3 minutes. Likewise the danger to your aircraft has been scaled down significantly, to pick up your example sacrificing a squad to DM AA to get damage on a DD has far fewer implications than it did previously because instead of having to keep track of reserves so you have some left towards the end of the game, the game just does it for you via the new plane respawn system.

 

Once you look past the surface level of the rework you will find extremely little depth in comparison. Farming potatoes in RTS CVs could be downright boring, yes, but if you measure everything with such a benchmark then the entire game becomes a giant snorefest.

Playing an RTS CV against an actually skilled opponent however meant that one lapse in concentration could cost you the match. That has been taken away. Now it's just target acquisition, killing said target and looking for the next one. Like working down a shopping list. There is nothing particularly mentally demanding about it. To even compare it to the RTS iteration is laughable at best.

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

There is nothing particularly mentally demanding about it. To even compare it to the RTS iteration is laughable at best.

No indeed, it's pretty simple. I'd say it is easier than driving a BB (takes cover).

Still it's entertaining. And even a potato can do it... 

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So with clan wars showing - as if more proof was needed - how completely broken that garbage class is, the apologists go from 'it's fine, l2p' to 'give it time, ideally lots of time and you will sure learn to love the rework too'. How about [edited]no?

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26 minutes ago, thisismalacoda said:

So with clan wars showing - as if more proof was needed - how completely broken that garbage class is, the apologists go from 'it's fine, l2p' to 'give it time, ideally lots of time and you will sure learn to love the rework too'. How about [edited]no?

My opinion is that having only rng as a defence against a class doesn’t work. That is why I’d prefer complete manual AA...

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48 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

My opinion is that having only rng as a defence against a class doesn’t work. That is why I’d prefer complete manual AA...

I'd prefer if you could click on either the squadron, or the attack group.

Then what you clicked on would get the full RNG hell, the other one would not.

But you'd have to click really good, els you miss the squadron...

...and missing them would mean no flak, just the default AA.

 

But hey, probably too difficult... 

 

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3 hours ago, Zuihou25 said:

In a recent training room experiment i did with my clan i tried to see how hard it is to injure or kill 2 cruisers staying together communicating their fighter consumeable and DFAA to prepare for possible CB CV implementation and the result was pitiful for me and in favor for them because after 13 minutes i could only manage to bring both down to half their HP

So both cruisers were half dead.  What percentage of your own ships HP was remaining? 100%?

3 hours ago, Zuihou25 said:

It gets harder and harder to perform at the level i do right now. I have games where i can't even touch the enemy team finishing with 100k dmg and one kill, most times the kill is a DD and the rest of the damage is healable dot spread amon gst 4 to 5 ships.

English not your first language? Where I am from, 100k damage and a kill can not be described as "can't even touch the enemy team" in any way shape or form.

3 hours ago, Zuihou25 said:

Then i get this game where i get 7 kills, 6 kills and still lose.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you have matches like that and at the same time complain about CVs being weak.

 

Look. I get it that you are enjoying the CV rework, and you have made this point repeatedly in many threads. That's good. I am glad for anyone who enjoys it. Really.

I WAS planning on trying CVs properly, but I'll be buggered if I fly planes around a map. So I am not a fan - but it's OK. Wargaming cannot please everyone. If it is for the greater good then neither you or I count at all.

The crucial question is: Will Wargaming achieve the objectives that they set themselves with the rework. Make CV's more accessible, more popular and reduce the skill gap between best and average players.

And if they don't then what is their "Plan B"? Just brazen it out and claim that it is a success regardless?  Back out the rework to RTS? Make a new Rework 2.0? Remove CVs altogether?

 

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Great post @Zuihou25, it feels good to see some nice and detailed comments about the CV rework, and other people expressing how they like the new system. I really didn't like the previous RTS iteration, and love the new system, for one simple reason. I couldn't bear the responsibility I had on my shoulders while playing the RTS CVs. I was not very good, not too bad either, but when I play I want to be relaxed and have fun, something I couldn't before because of the big impact CV had. If I messed things up, my team was losing, and I really hated that. I was too stressed. I finally can feel free and light-hearted now and I really enjoy CVs for the 1st time since I started playing the game. I finally can play with CVs.

 

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Playing an RTS CV against an actually skilled opponent however meant that one lapse in concentration could cost you the match.

You actually perfectly depict the reason why I couldn't enjoy RTS CVs. For this reason, which also emphasizes the too huge impact CV had, I am glad that they are now mainly damage dealers. Like a lot of already existing surface ships in the game. 

EDIT: but I perfectly understand some people enjoyed that feeling. I'm sorry for you that the RTS system disappeared, taking away this thrilling aspect of the battles you enjoyed before, but selfishly I feel better now.

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8 hours ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

The crucial question is: Will Wargaming achieve the objectives that they set themselves with the rework. Make CV's more accessible, more popular and reduce the skill gap between best and average players.

And if they don't then what is their "Plan B"? Just brazen it out and claim that it is a success regardless?  Back out the rework to RTS? Make a new Rework 2.0? Remove CVs altogether?

 

But you KNOW what they'll do. They'll introduce submarines... 

 

7 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

You actually perfectly depict the reason why I couldn't enjoy RTS CVs. For this reason, which also emphasizes the too huge impact CV had, I am glad that they are now mainly damage dealers. Like a lot of already existing surface ships in the game. 

The 'lapse of concentration' was usually helped by something going wrong in the interface....:Smile_hiding:

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7 hours ago, elblancogringo said:

Great post @Zuihou25, it feels good to see some nice and detailed comments about the CV rework, and other people expressing how they like the new system. I really didn't like the previous RTS iteration, and love the new system, for one simple reason. I couldn't bear the responsibility I had on my shoulders while playing the RTS CVs. I was not very good, not too bad either, but when I play I want to be relaxed and have fun, something I couldn't before because of the big impact CV had. If I messed things up, my team was losing, and I really hated that. I was too stressed. I finally can feel free and light-hearted now and I really enjoy CVs for the 1st time since I started playing the game. I finally can play with CVs.

 

You actually perfectly depict the reason why I couldn't enjoy RTS CVs. For this reason, which also emphasizes the too huge impact CV had, I am glad that they are now mainly damage dealers. Like a lot of already existing surface ships in the game. 

EDIT: but I perfectly understand some people enjoyed that feeling. I'm sorry for you that the RTS system disappeared, taking away this thrilling aspect of the battles you enjoyed before, but selfishly I feel better now.

If you were afraid enjoying the old RTS style you had 3 options.
A: Practice in Coop to aquire a better skill.
B: Do the same in training room with even less pressure.
C: Don´t touch the class if you are not good enough and can´t take the criticism from your team while playing.

But getting better as old RTS CV you had to play vs better players and learning what they were doing better than you in dog fights etc. But at least you would have equired the neccessary skillset to know how to attack ships in a decently skilled manor.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that:
Yes old RTS CV killed ships to effectively when the opposite CV could not protect his team and yes most DD could get one shotted by CV if they didn´t know how to dodge cross drops or similar. (Old CV´s were far from perfect).

But with the new style you get constantly harrassed as a DD anyway and spotted. Drop smoke when contesting a cap. Works once then CV is back again with another squadron. New CV´s are imo more annoying than the previous ones, also when playing other classes. Get torped as a cruiser or BB, nice I can relax now. Oh but no, hes back again like 20-30 sec later Wtf!!!

There is a lot to say from this rework and probably both styles of CV gameplay were and are far from perfect. Difference is the new style is more accessible to the wider community since it is perhaps a tad easier to play and understand. Imo CV´s were most often than not always ruining the fun of playing the regular ship lines and it would perhaps just be better without them.

Do not forget that this rework was mostly made to push out the game to consoles. I don´t think WG would have done that much with RTS CV´s if they didn´t plan for the console market.

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