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The_EURL_Guy

Almost Historical: Can Destroyers Withstand Battleships in the Open?

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In real life they (DD's) dont have a single chance. Radar/missiles and long range shooting killed the surprise effect that is in game. Forget concealment in real life.

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That's all well and good but you should read "The Last of the Tin Can Sailors" to appreciate what happens to a destroyer when it get's hit by a battleship sized shell. When something over a foot wide hits a thinly armoured ship at almost supersonic speeds and goes right through it it doesn't go through thin air, it goes through men, cables, steam lines, fire fighting lines, fuel lines, bulkheads, machinery, water and fuel tanks.

 

They can withstand it some of the time but you really don't want to take a hit, for example in the Battle for Leyte Gulf, the Samuel B Roberts was hit by 3 shells from The Kongo which left a hole 12m long and 3m wide. In the same battle the USN Hoel suffered hits which "knocked out three of her guns, stopped her port engine, and deprived her of her Mark-37 fire control director, FD radar, and Bridge steering control", again from Kongo. Both ships sank with very heavy loss of life. 

 

Given a choice I would rather be on a BB shooting at DDs than the other way round!

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An interesting article, but....

How many times do we have to remind you, Wargaming, what happens in real life is secondary to balanced gameplay.

 

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godzinę temu, xBurtx napisał:

That's all well and good but you should read "The Last of the Tin Can Sailors" to appreciate what happens to a destroyer when it get's hit by a battleship sized shell. When something over a foot wide hits a thinly armoured ship at almost supersonic speeds and goes right through it it doesn't go through thin air, it goes through men, cables, steam lines, fire fighting lines, fuel lines, bulkheads, machinery, water and fuel tanks.

 

They can withstand it some of the time but you really don't want to take a hit, for example in the Battle for Leyte Gulf, the Samuel B Roberts was hit by 3 shells from The Kongo which left a hole 12m long and 3m wide. In the same battle the USN Hoel suffered hits which "knocked out three of her guns, stopped her port engine, and deprived her of her Mark-37 fire control director, FD radar, and Bridge steering control", again from Kongo. Both ships sank with very heavy loss of life. 

 

Given a choice I would rather be on a BB shooting at DDs than the other way round!

It about the same effect in real life as thermonuclear HE from Conqueror has in a game. :cap_haloween: To be honest hey can't go for too much for real life mechanics, as no one would even bother to play smaller ships then BBs (of course CVs from middle tiers up would really crap over everyone including BBs). I do not understand why WG tries to excuse themselves with cherry-picked real-life stories for balancing of the computer game. Probably it says more about average players then WG.

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IRL Destroyers had better stay away from secondary battery guns that were designed on large warships to destroy such targets.....that had ofc much longer range then in game, while in game torpedo range is very much like RL.

 

But before radar and infrared vision scopes night battles were the circumstance you could do all kinds of stuff that normally would have blown you out of the water. I take it torpedo's are far harder to detect in the dark, too.

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too short to contain something interesting or not known before

you can do better WG !

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You can make any arguement if one is selective with the facts.

Or as the Captain of the Warspite put it, 'Just like shelling peas, sir ', shortly after wrecking the KM destroyer force.

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Hi,

 

"... in the open ...".

 

Another good or even better example is KMS Scharnhorst + KMS Gneisenau against HMS Glourious, HMS Acasta and HMS Ardent.

 

That was really fought in open water during daylight and even smoke layed by the british DDs did not help.

 

There goes your balancing/mechanics ... . :Smile_trollface:

 

Regards

 

Karl

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All examples were with 4 or more DD"S vs one BB , but when just one DD can shoot down 2 or more BB"S is like telling us that playing a ship from 1912 vs one from 1922 is normal (KAWACHI A VS LANGLEY) or better from 1923 (COLORADO) vs 1940 (BISMARCK) verry balanced indeed!

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2 hours ago, Masterwinston said:

In real life they (DD's) dont have a single chance. Radar/missiles and long range shooting killed the surprise effect that is in game. Forget concealment in real life.

In real life DDs still exists, BBs don't. CVs & airpower killed them off.

In real life, ships have to be extremely careful in their use of radar as any use show where you are to everyone out there, and a much longer range than any useful data that you might get. The concept is called 'Emission Control'. (This is not a new thing, the Scharnhorst tried it and see where it got them. Battle of North Cape.)

In real life low tech has killed more 'modern' warships than high tech. See Falklands War.

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Edit*

 

The google translate has failed due to typos in the text.

so it had to be removed!

If you PM me what you want to write in Turkish here, I can translate and post it back..

 

Excavatus

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So, two magnificent stories about 4 - 5 destroyers ganging up on a battleship. Case one saw them overwhelming the BB as they got extremely close thanks to chaos and cover while case two featured a few dds most of the time trailing a damaged lone BB while exhausting ist crew.

 

This is supposed to prove… what exactly? Especially regarding the game we play? That a bunch of DDs can and will kill a single BB? Whoop-dee-doo, big news here!

 

On the other hand we still have examples like that one time 2 german battleships caught a british cv and its two escorting dds with their pants down, basically whiping the (ocean) floor with all 3 of them while sustaining overall only minor damage.

And then there's the fact that heavy BB ammunition, especially some calibers we get to see at Tier 10, should in all actuallity be able to tear a DD in half with one or two hits. As, by the way, was mentioned by you Wargaming guys yourself in a Video you made about... Yamato, I think?

 

Ah, here it is: time index 2:45

 

 

Have to admit, you troll us now for years with this, Wargaming. You KNOW that it's BS that destroyers survive so much as even one hit from those guns.

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43 minutes ago, Varian_Dorn said:

So, two magnificent stories about 4 - 5 destroyers ganging up on a battleship. Case one saw them overwhelming the BB as they got extremely close thanks to chaos and cover while case two featured a few dds most of the time trailing a damaged lone BB while exhausting ist crew.

 

This is supposed to prove… what exactly? Especially regarding the game we play? That a bunch of DDs can and will kill a single BB? Whoop-dee-doo, big news here

 

Not unreasonable since IRL something like 10 (or more) DD were built for every BB.

 

In game I think it's best to think about every DD representing a flotilla of ships rather than just the one ship.

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...WG creates hype about dd's........player1 rushes out to buy the SIMS....nah, just kidding. Who needs a dd these days, tactical gameplay is almost gone.

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4 hours ago, Raclos said:

1923 (COLORADO) vs 1940 (BISMARCK) verry balanced indeed!

 

Not like Colorado got some retrofits in her years of service. :Smile_smile:

Battleships/Warships in general are not as easy to replace as tanks/planes.

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Too bad you forgot to mention that Hiei had more than half of the Main Battery Ammunition swapped out for Fragmentation Granades for bombarding Henderson Fields. So for her to get to the proper ammunition took her nearly 30 minutes.

"Because Abe had not anticipated resistance, his battleships' main guns were loaded with high-explosive shells for bombarding Henderson Field. So they were unable to open fire immediately, having to wait while armor-piercing shells were loaded instead." Only at ~ 01:50 it actually could start to engage.

 

Why not also include the 1 vs 1 of Aaron Ward vs Kirishima in the same Battle. DD was taken out of battle through massive damage and engine failure. Kirishima barely took any damage at all.

 

If you already tell Real Life situations, please at least do it properly. Telling only half the truth might be cool in Russia, but here not so much >.<

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6 hours ago, DariusJacek said:

To be honest hey can't go for too much for real life mechanics, as no one would even bother to play smaller ships then BBs

How about real-life economy? Guess no one would play BBs then because one battle would cost 100x of the same game in a destroyer.

 

Hey WG, didn´t you want to counter the BB-flood? :Smile_trollface:

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 Lets have a few PT and E boats in the game to !  Maybe a RU PT boat can sink a BB !  Might work . They are fast and a small hard target , and for good balance they could be made to take a lot of hits to !! ho ho   !   

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3 hours ago, bondone said:

 Lets have a few PT and E boats in the game to Maybe a RU PT boat can sink a BB !  Might work . They are fast and a small hard target , and for good balance they could be made to take a lot of hits to !! ho ho   !   

Well we do have Operation Dynamo.

 

The Kreigsmarine would have the various eboat classes. These of course the gold standard.

The USN PT boats, special 1000 doubloon skipper, a Kennedy.

RN would be spoiled for choice, MGBs, MTBs and the bigger and slower Dog Boats. Of course these take twice as much damage from any fire than any eboat.

The Italians of course had some pretty powerful boats, fast and sleek.

The Soviets would need something to counter the Eboats in the Black Sea and the Baltic. Fantasy might be needed here. Not sure what weapon systems I can suggest. Gattling Guns as manual secondaries?

 

None could reload their torpedos during a mission without a mothership or base, so each team would need a harbour similar to the Final Frontier operation, to rearm and instantly repair damage.

 

Of course, the delay on respawn mustn't be too long or players would have nothing to do towards the end of the match.

 

An of course for balance the radar fitted to every destroyer afloat wouldn't be able to pick them up outside of 3km, or the range of the torpedos on these boats, whatever is shorter of course.

 

These boats would instantly detect all submarines within 20km, regardless of the operating speed of the sub or the boat.

 

Yes I can see this balance working...

:Smile-_tongue:

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Wargaming are right to point out that DDs are hard targets for BBs. Warspite caught them in confined space at point blank range. Point blank was the range at Cape Matapan as well when the British BBs blasted two italian DDs (together with two Italian heavy cruisers). But there are plenty of instances where BBs struggled against solitary DDs when these were moving at full speed, at ranges of their own choice: at Leyte gulf US DDs caused huge damage to the Japanese Centre Force and it took large volumes of concentrated fire to take them down (only Kongo and Yamato scoring large calibre hits), with  over-penetrations by large calibre shells failing to disable them. If anything the 'tin can' ships in the Battle Off Samar mentioned in another post showed the difficulty of BBs (in this case, Yamato, Nagato, Kongo and Haruna) engaging DDs. Same happened a few hours previously with the southern force where Fuso and Yamashiro were obliterated while being relentlessly attacked by DDs and US BBs, at least one of them sinking from the DD attack, whilst neither Japanese BB causing any material damage to any DD. Finally, the sinking of the heavy cruiser Haguro, (which was accompanied by our beloved Kamikazi) at the straights of Malacca shows the difficulty in causing material damage by large caliber gunnery to a fast ship like a DD. Haguro was destroyed after being smothered with fire for an hour and having received as many as 9 torpedo hits. In return, during the whole period Haguro obtained only two hits on one DD, causing minor damage. The Kamikazi ran away having also caused no damage. In our game, if we placed the Haguro and the Kami versus 5 tier VII DDs, I bet the Haguro will score at last two kills, potentially up to five... 

There can be no doubt that even taking into account the arcade nature of the game, the way that distances and time are artificially shortened, if anything, our game makes DDs more vulnerable that they were in real life, BOTH from BBs but as well from heavy cruisers, since, other than the Des Moines class (which historically was a real OP ship of a different level of capability to anything else afloat) there is no instance of a heavy cruiser with 210mm calibre guns successfully engaging DDs and destroying them with ease (for example the Hipper, in a perfectly clear day, could not stop the British Glowwarm from ramming her and torping her from close range (which sadly missed, but that is another story...).

Wargaming are fundamentally right in their note. No, it is not true to think that a BB or a Heavy Cruiser can just obliterate DDs at will. Warspite did it because it put itself into a position where enemy DDs could do nothing other that wait to die. It, and the point black salvos on Alfieri and Carducci at cape Matapan, are the exceptions because the DDs had no freedom of maneuver and were caught with their pants down.      

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14 hours ago, Varian_Dorn said:

So, two magnificent stories about 4 - 5 destroyers ganging up on a battleship. Case one saw them overwhelming the BB as they got extremely close thanks to chaos and cover while case two featured a few dds most of the time trailing a damaged lone BB while exhausting ist crew.

 

This is supposed to prove… what exactly? Especially regarding the game we play? That a bunch of DDs can and will kill a single BB? Whoop-dee-doo, big news here!

 

On the other hand we still have examples like that one time 2 german battleships caught a british cv and its two escorting dds with their pants down, basically whiping the (ocean) floor with all 3 of them while sustaining overall only minor damage.

And then there's the fact that heavy BB ammunition, especially some calibers we get to see at Tier 10, should in all actuallity be able to tear a DD in half with one or two hits. As, by the way, was mentioned by you Wargaming guys yourself in a Video you made about... Yamato, I think?

 

Ah, here it is: time index 2:45

 

 

Have to admit, you troll us now for years with this, Wargaming. You KNOW that it's BS that destroyers survive so much as even one hit from those guns.

There is no BS on this. Other than when DDs were caught by surprise at point blank range (second battle of Narvik and cape Matapan) DDs have ALWAYS survived for a long period when engaging Battleships and Heavy Cruisers, none sinking or being disabled from one hit. BB AP shots can cause massive holes but will overpenetrate and US DD designs (e.g. Fletchers) had boiler rooms and machinery spaced out such that no single hit by any size shell could disable the ship. That is why Off Samar the combined force of Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, Haruna, six heavy cruisers, two light cruisers and 11 destroyers could only sink three US DDs after scoring dozens and dozens of hits on them and not just "one hit" as you claim. For example, Johnston was hit by three massive shells from a main gun salvo from Yamato and continued the fight against Japanese cruisers and battleships for another hour and a half, scoring huge damage, before been taken down mostly by gun fire having been surrounded by cruisers and DDs. Hoel and Samuel B Roberts had a similar experience in the same battle.    

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23 minutes ago, ATH67 said:

Warspite caught them in confined space at point blank range.

...

Warspite did it because it put itself into a position where enemy DDs could do nothing other that wait to die.

Not forgetting that Warspite had 9 destroyers including a number of powerful Tribal Class Destroyers and air support from HMS Furious.

Also these destroyers had not completed restoring, refueling and rearming after the first battle.

This certainly wasn't a fair fight.

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2 hours ago, Cambera_1 said:

The Soviets would need something to counter the Eboats in the Black Sea and the Baltic. Fantasy might be needed here.

or just take five seconds and google it:

 

Spoiler


123bis.thumb.jpg.03d95a627372798d6d08973c23f9555a.jpgLancha_G-5.jpg.afc99b590609b2c55642091885d918ff.jpg

 

Also, 53 knots is pretty badass.

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