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GulvkluderGuld

CV vs DD: further nerfs needed

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That got your attention.

 

No i'm not talking about damage. Tier 8-10.

 

But DDs  absolutely need a way to get unspotted by constant Rocket plane spam.

Like a 1 min cooldown on rocket squads, because currently capping or leaving smoke is impossible because of rocket planes returning 20-30s after last wave was killed --> permaspotting --> dead dd (from focus fire, not rockets)

 

Or maybe WG can invent a special consumable for DDs that does 1000% AA dmg and throws up 1000% the flak, lasts for 45s and have a really long cd. :Smile_trollface:

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Can you please also state the ship tier your argument is based around ? Because the capabilities are not the same for all tiers ... Can we just assume T 10 ?

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Have u tried turning your AA off? Because ur detected goes down to 2.1 in the case of a kagero or asashio, its like looking for a needle in a haystack 

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No.

You have had enough tuned to your advantage. In my whole Clan i am the only one relyably hitting DDs with rockets. Everyone else no matter how much i explain or try to help doesn't manage it. Those are just average CV players. They don't even get the idea of using the plane detection as indicator that a DD is nearby.

How are they supposed to fight DDs with further nerfs?

 

You want to be immune, just say it.

Also rockets aren't your issue, divebombers are.

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Just now, Zuihou25 said:

No.

You have had enough tuned to your advantage. In my whole Clan i am the only one relyably hitting DDs woth rockets. Everyone else no matter how much i explain or try to help doesn't manage it. Those are just average CV players. They don't even get the idea of using the plane detection as indicator that a DD is nearby.

How are they supposed to fight DDs with further nerfs?

 

You want to be immune, just say it.

Also rockets aren't your issue, divebombers are.

Most people have stopped using rockets to go after DDs on the USN CV line and have switched to the HE DBs, much harder to hit but much more damage. With the IJN line you're stuck with rocket planes though :(

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I would also like to add, T5 battle, Kamakazi, constantly buzzed by rocket/bomber aircraft throughout the whole game.  So close enough to fly over you and return and fire rockets but not once did the AA guns open fire! so I presume that these attacks are always now going to be beyond the range of all AA guns on T5 DD's.  

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7 minutes ago, TheRonson said:

I would also like to add, T5 battle, Kamakazi, constantly buzzed by rocket/bomber aircraft throughout the whole game. 

 

Kami only has 2x machine guns as AA. That means no flak, only DPS at close range.

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Easy way to go unspotted by (now useless ) rocket planes is to deactivate your AA and TADAA. The squadrons have to fly above your hull to be able to spot you. Then, when they turn away to try and attack, you disappear again. And even, now these terrible, horrible, fearsome, dreaded rocket fighters have a worse turning radius than dive bombers and torpedo bombers. And while aiming, they have even less margin of maneuver than torpedo bombers. 

With the last patch, I honestly never bother with them anymore, as hunting DDs with HE bombs became way less tedious and much more fun/rewarding.

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52 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

 

But DDs  absolutely need a way to get unspotted by constant Rocket plane spam.

Like a 1 min cooldown on rocket squads, because currently capping or leaving smoke is impossible because of rocket planes returning 20-30s after last wave was killed --> permaspotting --> dead dd (from focus fire, not rockets)

 

Now why would you want to punish teamplay?
 

Most i get from all the complaining DD players is that they dont want to adept. 

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1 hour ago, Zuihou25 said:

No.

You have had enough tuned to your advantage. In my whole Clan i am the only one relyably hitting DDs with rockets. Everyone else no matter how much i explain or try to help doesn't manage it. Those are just average CV players. They don't even get the idea of using the plane detection as indicator that a DD is nearby.

How are they supposed to fight DDs with further nerfs?

 

You want to be immune, just say it.

Also rockets aren't your issue, divebombers are.

 

You put the cart before the horse. Right now CVs (at least tier 8+10) are immune to DDs, not the other way around.

AA on other classes is stupidly strong, so CVs focus the easy targets, those being DDs. Please point out where I am wrong, if you disagree.

 

You argue CVs cant fight dds and that WG should balance around average players.

First, balancing around potatoes is impossible, because unicums will always find exploits, and closing those will unbalance the game for the potatoes.

Second, you just want free easy damage on DDs (you said it yourself, "reliable"). 

 

Let me ask you: How much damage do those DDs do to you in return? Maybe they shoot down a plane, if they are really lucky? Who does free damage to whom?

Even that is beside the point, as DDs can never hope to damage the actual CV unless the CV player grossly mispositions.

 

Clearly, CVs have no way to fight a DD.

 

1 hour ago, The_fun_police said:

Have u tried turning your AA off? Because ur detected goes down to 2.1 in the case of a kagero or asashio, its like looking for a needle in a haystack 

Yep. Playing Daring and Kita. I had AA off untill spotted, turned it off immedieately after the attack too. And still 2nd strike was usually hitting me without any problem despite briefly going unspotted.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Can you please also state the ship tier your argument is based around ? Because the capabilities are not the same for all tiers ... Can we just assume T 10 ?

Tier 8 and tier 10 cvs yes =)

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32 minutes ago, Gl0cK_17 said:

Now why would you want to punish teamplay?
 

Most i get from all the complaining DD players is that they dont want to adept. 

 

Consider middle/lategame.  You want to cap in a DD, but even though the enemy CV is on the other side of the map, his rocket planes only takes 20-30s seconds to cross the map.

 

How do you adapt to that? There literally is no timing window to exploit. 

 

Finishing off a low hp target is fine and teamplay oriented. Or striking a full hp target.

But both striking the full hp target and returning 30s later to kill it has nothing to do with teamplay.

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Vor 5 Minuten, GulvkluderGuld sagte:

 

You put the cart before the horse. Right now CVs (tier 8+10) are immune to DDs, not the other way around.

AA on other classes is stupidly strong, so CVs focus the easy targets, those being DDs. Please point out where I am wrong, if you disagree.

 

You argue CVs cant fight dds and that WG should balance around average players.

First, balancing around potatoes is impossible, because unicums will always find exploits, and closing those will unbalance the game for the potatoes.

Second, you just want free easy damage on DDs (you said it yourself, "reliable"). 

 

Let me ask you: How much damage do those DDs do to you in return? Maybe they shoot down a plane maybe, if they are really lucky?

Oh, and even that is beside the point, as DDs can never hope to damage the actual CV unless the CV player grossly mispositions.

 

Gosh, clearly, CVs have no chance against a DD.

 

Yep. Playing Daring and Kita. I had AA off untill spotted, turned it off immedieately after the attack too. And still 2nd strike was usually hitting me without any problem despite briefly going unspotted.

 

 

Tier 8 and tier 10 cvs yes =)

I myself can deal with any DD threat easily and reliably in every USN CV.

IJN on the other hand (besides Kaga) are a different story and for those DDs might aswell seem to be immune.

I have practiced dropping those HE bombs to be able to kill DDs. I also have a certain understanding and patience.

If you balance the game around that level of understanding,you screw over 90% of the rest of the players.

It's not easy to learn it fast. You can't expect averages to become unicum lvl CV players so the CV class starts becoming viable.

 

A unicum has through practice earned himself the ability to deal with DDs in case if USN CV. That's my view on things, further nerfs will not change much, i will find another and another way to deal with DDs no matter the nerfs.

But you are screwing everyone else.

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39 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

 

 

Yep. Playing Daring and Kita. I had AA off untill spotted, turned it off immedieately after the attack too. And still 2nd strike was usually hitting me without any problem despite briefly going unspotted.

 

Did you turn hard between beeing respotted? 
I would even go as far to say dont bother with turning on your AA ever unless you are in a German or US DD. Or unless you where allready spotted by something else.
Play around your stealth
if you get spotted by a bomber, its useally allready to late for him to start an attack run. He will have to circle back around to get enough distance to complete his aiming in, once aimed in he cant adjust taht drasticly either by his bombers not beeing able to manouver hard while locked in the attack or by reticle bloom.

Now if you left your AA off, you will get unspotted as soon you get 2,5ish distance, since the bombers need about 3-4k as an arming distance you have a window to pull a sharp turn whilst the CV has to guestimate his attack blind. And if the situation allows it, turn hard into the bombers, it will likely make the bombers over shoot you.
these kind of DD players are very hard to damage, granted they will be annoyed, then again as a CV you either then have to resort to stop wasting your time on a uncooperative target or keeping them spotted and hope your team does the job.
Now unless you solo yoloed the last option is also not taht attractive to a CV.

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5 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

You put the cart before the horse. Right now CVs (tier 8+10) are immune to DDs, not the other way around.

AA on other classes is stupidly strong, so CVs focus the easy targets, those being DDs. Please point out where I am wrong, if you disagree.

You are being wrong about DD AA. Yes, there are DDs that have weak (by DD standards) AA but the strong ones (and I don't even mean things like Grozovoi at t10 or Kidd at t8 with active def. AA) can and will shoot down attacking planes. Managing your reinforcement sectors well and switching off the AA when needed makes the CV waste a lot of time and lose some planes. Most DDs are unlikely to defend themselves alone, yes, but they can make the CV pay and - at the same time - buy themselves time to retreat closer to friendly ships. And woe to the CV that tries to kill a DD that switches AA off while hiding in vicinity of a BB or an AA cruiser.

As for "perma spotting", DDs don't actually suffer from that nearly as much as you claim. For starters, managing your AA activity makes you hard to spot and keep spotted - and the fighters that can be left over you for spotting purposes drop dead very quickly to any decent DD AA (and practically instantly to cruiser or BB AA). Not to mention that a friendly CV sometimes can drop fighters for you. DD AA usually can deal with the fighters fast enough, leaving the friendly fighters to deal with lots of attack planes.

 

The problems with current CV vs DD interaction isn't that the former are too powerful but that the wrong things got nerfed. Basically, what should happen is:

1. Spotting: the DDs (and some other things as well) should have their air concealment nerfed back to the old values (or almost there). In turn the planes should lose their sixth sense (the warning that they are spotted). That way DDs wouldn't be so ridiculously hard to spot when you know where they are BUT they would be able to keep the enemy guessing because planes wouldn't be getting the "early DD warning" in the form of "you're spotted" icon popping up and inviting you for an area sweep in search of the destroyer.

2. Damage: rockets should be restored as the proper anti-DD weapon they should be. In return, there should be some changes made to HE bombs so that they are less effective against DDs, making them a general-purpose weapon rather than - as is the case right now - the main weapon USN CVs use against DDs (because rockets are unreliable while DBs can start aiming from within DD's detection radius and deal much more damage on a well performed drop).

 

20 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

 

Let me ask you: How much damage do those DDs do to you in return? Maybe they shoot down a plane maybe, if they are really lucky?

Oh, and even that is beside the point, as DDs can never hope to damage the actual CV unless the CV player grossly mispositions.

Hakuryu experience: if the DD doesn't just sail in straight line, far away from allies, I tend to consistently lose planes while inflicting noticeable (but hardly crippling) damage. If the DD retreats towards allies, I need to call off my attack because that would be sacrificing the whole squadron for negligible damage. Of course, a lot depends on what DD we're talking about as well - the AA DDs with def. AA can be pretty damn lethal to the fragile rocket planes (the only squadron on Hakuryu that has any effect on non-braindead DDs since bombs are hard to land and only overpen while torps are laughably easy do dodge for a DD that as much as tries).

 

DD experience: I lately sail my Akizuki quite a lot (sluggish as hell, turns terribly, good AA but with no def. AA, the only AA-related things in my build is the +2 flak puffs upgrade and BFT that happens to improve AA as well). I murder t6 planes. I can defend myself from t8 planes to the point where attacking me becomes a questionable choice. I do suffer when harassed by a t10 CV (two tiers difference does hurt) but I still kill planes and if I happen to have some support (a single allied ship or friendly CV support) that's enough to let me reliably defend myself even from t10 CV threat.

 

Of course if the DD is already low hp after previous engagements, things get much less favorable for them... But that's because "lone, badly damaged target" is the perfect target for a CV rather than due to being a DD. In fact, a badly damaged (and alone) BB or cruiser is much more screwed because they are just much easier to find and much less likely to be able to threaten enemies without broadcasting their own position while a Shima at 1k hp spamming torps (invisible to planes) can still do a lot of harm without beign foound unless the CV specifically goes looking for her. And if said shima does rejoin friendlies, that 1k hp can be pretty damn hard to take away from her...

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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Kami only has 2x machine guns as AA. That means no flak, only DPS at close range.

Yes, that's right, but before all the changes the guns would at least open up, but now with different attack heights and attack speed,  they come into range so fast when you factor in the lag, you may as well remove the guns. 

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DD that I easily hunt and kill;

-Moves along incredibly obvious path at game start (beeline to cap)

-Has left AA on which announces their prescence at 5km

-Far ahead of team at start so no team cover

-Makes no real attempt to dodge

-Doesnt bother smoking until last squadron, if at all

 

DD that are a complete pain;

-Isnt on obvious path so I have to guess where they might be.

-Has AA off so I need to get much closer to find

-Is near team (at least at start) - if I find a minotaur at 6.9 im sure as hell not going to fly around inside it's flak just on the offchance that there might also be a DD in there too

-Gives no visible clues until im doing something else

-Smokes up as soon as he realises planes will find him but BEFORE I find him. Unless I have torps out, im not shooting rockets or bombs into a random smoke

 

The first type are food. The second type are an absolute pain.

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Though reluctant to admit it hehe Wargaming seem to be slowly getting balance ok.....ish now.Most of my DDs became redundant when new CVs were first introduced but it now seems the DD players and CV players are equally disgrunted so some sort of balance appears to being achieved 

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2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

That got your attention.

 

No i'm not talking about damage. Tier 8-10.

 

But DDs  absolutely need a way to get unspotted by constant Rocket plane spam.

Like a 1 min cooldown on rocket squads, because currently capping or leaving smoke is impossible because of rocket planes returning 20-30s after last wave was killed --> permaspotting --> dead dd (from focus fire, not rockets)

 

Or maybe WG can invent a special consumable for DDs that does 1000% AA dmg and throws up 1000% the flak, lasts for 45s and have a really long cd. :Smile_trollface:

You’re wasting your time. CV players don’t wanna here about the unbalanced part of CV’s.

 

You’re better of talking to a brick wall in this forum when it comes to most things about CV’s.

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2 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

That got your attention.

 

No i'm not talking about damage. Tier 8-10.

 

But DDs  absolutely need a way to get unspotted by constant Rocket plane spam.

Like a 1 min cooldown on rocket squads, because currently capping or leaving smoke is impossible because of rocket planes returning 20-30s after last wave was killed --> permaspotting --> dead dd (from focus fire, not rockets)

 

Or maybe WG can invent a special consumable for DDs that does 1000% AA dmg and throws up 1000% the flak, lasts for 45s and have a really long cd. :Smile_trollface:

 

I am not toxic with you, despite i am one of the players you want even further nerfed. I will explain :

 

When you get what you want, not be spotted by aircraft you will still get attacked by rockets. The way i operate after all the nerfs is i go in together with a friendly DD. He will spot the enemy DD for me so i don't lose sight of it during every turn to make another attack pass. So there is no perma-spoting by aircraft anymore, you are being (perma) spotted by other ships and mostly your own kind, a fellow DD ! And upon being spotted by other ships you will come under rocket attack again. And shell fire, and DD torpedo's which is far more killing then rocket fire.

 

You say a CD on being able to use rocket squadrons. That will not help you either as you will find out you will then be bombed by divebombers. Already many players don't bother to use rockets anymore because of their low damage and aiming nerfs. AP bombers are useless for this, but the already more powerful US CV's use very effective HE bombs that will make your DD explode far more dependable then inaccurate and low damage rockets.

 

Maybe you want CV removed. That won't prolong your life either, enemy DD and cruisers are more then capable of ending you not much later then aircraft assist would have. Then you wuld be angry about Radars, then Hydro's, then too accurate Cruiser fire, then......

 

As DD try to work WITH your own side CV instead of playing Rambo. If you go in together with your side's CV rocket fighters, you have a good chance to actually cap/sink enemy DD/be protected from enemy rocket fighters/come out alive and have a (stealthy) mid-end game.

 

Don't ask for nerfs.....ask WG to promote/reward teamplay better !  Ofcourse you may not wish to team play. But then you have no right to ask for nerfs, it isn't a single player game tailored for your victory conditions.

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Speaking as a DD main (with poor-average WR i.e. I tend to potate), I think the question/problem varies spectacularly with tier and nation.

 

Against the US DDs (and some Russians), with their Def AA, if they're built for AA (not even completely), you can make a solid case that CVs have been over-nerfed; driving things like Sims, and up, I generally *want* the CVs to find me (so long as I've positioned sensibly, such that enemy ships can't hit me when spotted) - I can usually damage/destroy enough planes to seriously dent the CV's plans (assuming the CV isn't a unicum).

 

With a middle case, such as the PA DDs, or KM - good AA, but no Def AA, I can still make a CV's life difficult to the extent that there are often better things to harass.

 

Worst case, which is things like the IJN torp boats, there is still a problem - all you can do is hide.

 

My feeling, which others may feel to be cretinous, is to remove Sixth Sense from planes (keep RPF, or whatever it's called, as that exacts a cost for having), re-buff the planes, perhaps revert the buff to air spotting distances (i.e. make them bigger again), *but* buff the AA oompf of the sneaky DDs - this would be unhistorical (for those that care), but should make camping on IJN torp boats less viable...

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1 minute ago, topopski said:

Though reluctant to admit it hehe Wargaming seem to be slowly getting balance ok.....ish now.Most of my DDs became redundant when new CVs were first introduced but it now seems the DD players and CV players are equally disgrunted so some sort of balance appears to being achieved 

The first week was the most unbalanced pile of crap ive seen in any game tbh, anyone with half a brain could just mop up whole teams in a CV.
But the 2nd week after the first "minor tweak" allready fixed those issues tbh.

But it seems it has left alot of the self proclaimed DD experts with some serious PTSD. and now they still defacate themselves at a mere glimpse of a plane on the horizon, and freeze like bunnies caught in the headlights. 
Thats honeslty the only explenation i have for threads like this, as CVs are now the weakest they are ever going to be.

 

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4 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

I myself can deal with any DD threat easily and reliably in every USN CV.

IJN on the other hand (besides Kaga) are a different story and for those DDs might aswell seem to be immune.

I have practiced dropping those HE bombs to be able to kill DDs. I also have a certain understanding and patience.

If you balance the game around that level of understanding,you screw over 90% of the rest of the players.

It's not easy to learn it fast. You can't expect averages to become unicum lvl CV players so the CV class starts becoming viable.

 

A unicum has through practice earned himself the ability to deal with DDs in case if USN CV. That's my view on things, further nerfs will not change much, i will find another and another way to deal with DDs no matter the nerfs.

But you are screwing everyone else.

Other games balance around the best players, not the average players. 

By your own argument, we should balance the game around the majority of oblivious players who overextend (dds rushing caps / on solo adventures, cruisers overextending, BBs camping the back etc).

That kind of argument is what produced the Conqueror, the Asashio and Kitakaze/Harugumo and USN light cruisers, not to mention radar,  RPF and current generation CVs with automated consumables.

 

You can reliably deal with any DD, no matter how skilled the DD player is (in USN CVs)? That is the definition of overpowered. Thanks for admitting it.

 

Right now, the only thing keeping DDs alive and played as a class, is the rarity of CVs (that was true for both old and new CVs)

If there comes a time where CV are seen in every game as WG wants....

We saw what resulted when new CVs were released (quite a dip in DD numbers and other ships would lemmingtrain because of lack of spotting).

That is not a game I want to play, not as any class (except CVs).

 

Keeping things as they are screws over everyone but the CV players.

That is my view.

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good dd players save their smoke to use against dbs

good dd players leave aa off and turn towards the planes once they spot them

good dd players stick within 5km of cruisers for aa support

^^^^^^^^^^^ those are the hard to hit dds that you struggle to damage

 

all others meh your getting what you deserve if you wont alter your gameplay to the new meta

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41 minutes ago, Gl0cK_17 said:

Did you turn hard between beeing respotted? 
I would even go as far to say dont bother with turning on your AA ever unless you are in a German or US DD. Or unless you where allready spotted by something else.
Play around your stealth
if you get spotted by a bomber, its useally allready to late for him to start an attack run. He will have to circle back around to get enough distance to complete his aiming in, once aimed in he cant adjust taht drasticly either by his bombers not beeing able to manouver hard while locked in the attack or by reticle bloom.

Now if you left your AA off, you will get unspotted as soon you get 2,5ish distance, since the bombers need about 3-4k as an arming distance you have a window to pull a sharp turn whilst the CV has to guestimate his attack blind. And if the situation allows it, turn hard into the bombers, it will likely make the bombers over shoot you.
these kind of DD players are very hard to damage, granted they will be annoyed, then again as a CV you either then have to resort to stop wasting your time on a uncooperative target or keeping them spotted and hope your team does the job.
Now unless you solo yoloed the last option is also not taht attractive to a CV.

Obviously I juggled both speed and direction, including last-minute turn/brake as his rockets were fired.

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2 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

good dd players save their smoke to use against dbs

good dd players leave aa off and turn towards the planes once they spot them

good dd players stick within 5km of cruisers for aa support

^^^^^^^^^^^ those are the hard to hit dds that you struggle to damage

 

all others meh your getting what you deserve if you wont alter your gameplay to the new meta

Not to mention that this CV meta is alot more forgiving than the old CV meta. even the good DDs stil got blapped in the first few minutes of a game by a good CV in the "good old days" 

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