Pre-tier 8 IJN gunboat DDs...

[DrMechano]

Ok someone explain to my WHY the Hatsu and the Shira are in the 'gunboat' line. Their reload on their 127mm guns suck compared to the 130mm guns on their russian counterparts (with BFT 6.8 seconds for the Shira vs 4.5 with the the Minsk), the turret traverse is just AWFUL (If I wanted to play a ship with glacial turret traverse, I'd play a Musashi). Sure they have good torps (that can be spotted a mile off it seems) and much better detection ranges than the Russians but it feels like those trade offs aren't worth it. It's like WG couldn't decided whether they wanted a gunboat DD or a Torp boat DD and sort of made a generally 'meh' DD that's not so great at both.

 

Are these two a hold over from the pre-split line when awful turret traverse and meh guns was a feature of the IJN DDs? I assume the Shira is the result of nerf after nerf being piled onto it back when it could 'wall of skill' people.

[BlackYeti]

3 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Ok someone explain to my WHY the Hatsu and the Shira are in the 'gunboat' line. Their reload on their 127mm guns suck compared to the 130mm guns on their russian counterparts (with BFT 6.8 seconds for the Shira vs 4.5 with the the Minsk), the turret traverse is just AWFUL (If I wanted to play a ship with glacial turret traverse, I'd play a Musashi). Sure they have good torps (that can be spotted a mile off it seems) and much better detection ranges than the Russians but it feels like those trade offs aren't worth it. It's like WG couldn't decided whether they wanted a gunboat DD or a Torp boat DD and sort of made a generally 'meh' DD that's not so great at both.

 

Are these two a hold over from the pre-split line when awful turret traverse and meh guns was a feature of the IJN DDs? I assume the Shira is the result of nerf after nerf being piled onto it back when it could 'wall of skill' people.

It seems akatsuki is actually better as a gunboat than shira, having one more gun and better turret traverse. T5-T7 clearly need some redesigning.

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Ok someone explain to my WHY the Hatsu and the Shira are in the 'gunboat' line. 

Because WG wanted to fill the tree, but were unwilling to adapt the gunboat concept to the ships.

Basicly all DD before Akizuki are torpboats.

[hgbn_dk]

6 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

It seems akatsuki is actually better as a gunboat than shira, having one more gun and better turret traverse. T5-T7 clearly need some redesigning.

I was thinking the same about the Akatsuki vs Shira

[Inappropriate_noob]

I know this is a silly question but you get that from potatoes like me, which are the very best DD's in the game, I am gaining the impression that it is the top tier ones from 7 upwards that are the most rewarding, not as it matters much as I cannot play  them to save my life,  you race to the cap, get radar spotted and die, yolo boats nothing more to me.

 

 

Hell of it is I like them though and am grinding the Brit DD's, as useless as they seem.

[Uglesett]

Hatsuharu and Shiratsuyu are indeed a bit odd. Now, I like both boats, but I consider them "alternative torp boats" rather than "gunboats". 

[belalugosisdead]

You are right, the first "real"gunboat Starts at T8. Under T8 they are more or less Torpboats, but with good HE Alpha  and firechance after the Buff. So the Guns are usable, but its always a decision if you want to shoot and give Informations about your Position. Plus the line is not consistant, the Akatsuki has one gun more than Shira. 

[BlackYeti]

Just now, belalugosisdead said:

You are right, the first "real"gunboat Starts at T8. Under T8 they are more or less Torpboats, but with good HE Alpha  and firechance after the Buff. So the Guns are usable, but its always a decision if you want to shoot and give Informations about your Position. Plus the line is not consistant, the Akatsuki has one gun more than Shira. 

Problem is that fubuki and akatsuki are better torpboats and the akizuki predecessors dont get anything to compensate. Hatsu even loses 3rd turret with B hull and shira main guns dont contribute to AA even when the description states they are DP

[Yedwy]

They needed to stick those dds somewhere and made them gunboat line when they clearly are nothing of that sort, they should just make alternate torp line for them and reshuffle and retweak them as needbe and make gunboats branch out from t8

[DrMechano]

19 minutes ago, NoobySkooby said:

I know this is a silly question but you get that from potatoes like me, which are the very best DD's in the game, I am gaining the impression that it is the top tier ones from 7 upwards that are the most rewarding, not as it matters much as I cannot play  them to save my life,  you race to the cap, get radar spotted and die, yolo boats nothing more to me.

 

 

Hell of it is I like them though and am grinding the Brit DD's, as useless as they seem.

Low tiers IF you know how to play them, the Russian DDs, good firepower and speed for their tier (as you can see they outgun other DDs up until tier 8, much better reload and bigger guns) however you can't play them as cap pushers. Russian DDs have a massive detection range and rely heavily on Run and Gun style of gameplay. There really isn't a 'best' DD, it depends on playstyle.

 

There are three types of DD, Gun boat, Torp boat and hybrid. Gun boat DDs usually have much better guns but give up torps and concealment (the Russian DD line is a shinning example of this, great guns for their tier, very fast and nimble, terrible detection range and up until tier 8, 4km range torps which are what I describe as "self defense torps" aka only use them when a BB or cruiser is closing in on your smoke or you get the jump on someone).

 

Torp boats are the complete opposite, guns are just awful BUT they have good concealment range and long range, hard hitting torps, engaging enemy DDs in them is not advised.

 

Hybrids are a sort of weird middle ground which is where the Hatsu and the Shira sort of sit, they're not really good at either thing, the Shira only has 2 torp launchers meaning it can't Torp boat well enough AND its torps are spotted with enough time to easily dodge them meanwhile its guns and turret traverse are utter garbage. That isn't to say there arent GOOD hybrid DDs but the two I've played so far are just janky.

 

From what I can tell, they took two pre-existing ships, moved them around the tiers and did virtually nothing to make them fit the idea of a gunboat line. I'd lower their reload down to at least 5 seconds, putting them on par with the Russian DDs, reduce their torps down to 6km, massively increase their turret traverse speed and bump up their detection range.

[Yedwy]

Gotta play all kinds of dds (and other ship classes as well) makes you a better player

[belalugosisdead]

17 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Gotta play all kinds of dds (and other ship classes as well) makes you a better player

 

Thats it. You know your opponents best if you play them. 

[Excavatus]

dont get confused,

gun boats starts with Akizuki.

 

Below them on the second branch are just bleh! torpedo boats.

[veslingr]

1 hour ago, NoobySkooby said:

I know this is a silly question but you get that from potatoes like me, which are the very best DD's in the game, I am gaining the impression that it is the top tier ones from 7 upwards that are the most rewarding, not as it matters much as I cannot play  them to save my life,  you race to the cap, get radar spotted and die, yolo boats nothing more to me.

 

 

Hell of it is I like them though and am grinding the Brit DD's, as useless as they seem.

It depends of your preferred playstile but if we take Clan Wars for metric and in my opinion there are no better ones, there IS clear winner....YueYang and Gearing with "epic" module, they have perfect mix of "stealth/guns/torps

[DrMechano]

5 minutes ago, veslingr said:

It depends of your preferred playstile but if we take Clan Wars for metric and in my opinion there are no better ones, there IS clear winner....YueYang and Gearing with "epic" module, they have perfect mix of "stealth/guns/torps

I doubt our dear friend is going to be doing Clan wars any time soon. So basically its down to "what playstyle do you prefer?"

[veslingr]

10 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

I doubt our dear friend is going to be doing Clan wars any time soon. So basically its down to "what playstyle do you prefer?"

yep

[DrMechano]

So, the Hatsu and the Shira are basically penalty boats you have to play to get the to good stuff at tier 8...essentially free XP sinks of the line and I doubt they're going to be seeing modifications or buffs any time soon to make them better fit the idea of a gunboat line...Well I shall grind through the Shira as quickly as possible then.

[Yedwy]

Oh hatchu and shita are quite nice torp dds 

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

So, the Hatsu and the Shira are basically penalty boats you have to play to get the to good stuff at tier 8...essentially free XP sinks of the line and I doubt they're going to be seeing modifications or buffs any time soon to make them better fit the idea of a gunboat line...Well I shall grind through the Shira as quickly as possible then.

Shira is very very good boat....not gunboat but excellent torpedo boat that can use torpbooster...but i agree that in gun line you want gun boats....i would not object if they started new line (gun line) with t8.

[Mr_Tayto]

1 hour ago, NoobySkooby said:

am grinding the Brit DD's, as useless as they seem.

Wut

[DrMechano]

Just now, veslingr said:

Shira is very very good boat....not gunboat but excellent torpedo boat that can use torpbooster...but i agree that in gun line you want gun boats....i would not object if they started new line (gun line) with t8.

The problem I have with torps is, as several CCs have put it, that they're unreliable damage apart from at near suicide ranges OR if the enemy doesn't expect to be hit by torps at extended ranges (the Zao 12km torps often catch chasing opponents by surprise). The Shira's torps have quite a large detection range and she only gets 2 launchers. I've had much better success with smoke with her than with the Torp reload booster but then that's because I'm usually a very aggressive DD player (hence my current favorite line being the Russian line. With the congratulatory camo on the Keiv I'll probably be keeping her since she's basically a premium ship with that camo)

[AmiralPotato]

I suggest this review of the two IJN DD lines by LWM:

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/164817-mouses-angry-youtuber-reviews-of-ijn-destroyers/

[belalugosisdead]

48 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

The problem I have with torps is, as several CCs have put it, that they're unreliable damage apart from at near suicide ranges OR if the enemy doesn't expect to be hit by torps at extended ranges 

 

Damage is not everything. I played Hatshu a lot two years ago. It was the DD in which i learned positioning in a DD. And i also learned how to land torps and expect movements of BBs. I had 134 games in it with 74 % Winrate. And thats the goal of the game i think: to win it. Detection range is your friend and the Ship is agile. And every day there is a BB baby who wants to be a dev strike. I played Hatshu again in Dezember for the missions: still worked. And if 74 % Winrate is a penalty, i gladly take it :-) 

 

Of course i love other type of DDs too, like the russians, but i think a good DDPlayer should make them all work. :-)

 

 

[Alex_Connor]

Hatsu/Shira are very much torpedo boats and good torpedo boats too, arguably better than the torpedo line Fubuki and Akatsuki.

 

Hatsu may look like a Fubuki with one less triple launcher but it’s smaller, sneaker, just overall a more flexible ship, while Shira is stealthier than the Akatsuki and the TRB option packs a real punch.

 

Basically either line would lead perfectly to the Kagero, problem is the Japanese don’t really have any options for mid tier gunboats, Akizuki was a big departure from existing designs so you have torpedo boats in both lines to tier 7.

[DrMechano]

Still I'm finding more success with smoke than TRB, just think it's more my playstyle. Still will grind through it to get to the real show of the gunboat line.