2 types of players

[Bear__Necessities]

In this game we have 2 types of players. Those who get on with it it, do their best regardless of tier, play and get rewarded. And those that  and moan about MM and how unfair things are and who get teams punished due to their selfish ways. This game (screenshot provided) sums it up perfectly. I was lucky, I got the T8 CV who took on the challenge in a game with T10's and was rightly rewarded for his excellent work, he came top with a great base exp. The Red CV who due to forum rules has to remain unnamed gave up part way through, committed suicide and ed over his team.  We won, due to the fact our CV moved around the map smartly and was undetected even in range of 2 BB's at one point and also because our DD was left alive to cap uncontested on less than 100 hp, remember that important part. We won because their CV committed suicide and was therefore not in the last stages of the game to finish our super low HP DD and spot the CV in range of 2 BB's. 

 

His reason in chat for sabotaging his team? "I can't do damage on ships in a T8 CV" "  Spot DD's?? Nah, that impossible now due to nerfs" "what's the point, T8 CV's are  and are pointless"....

Yet, it didn't stop our T8 CV topping the board and being instrumental in the win. I felt really bad for the red team. They had a win effectively stolen from them by a selfish arse who because he's a potato who can't do well feels he has the right to drag down 11 other players. 

 

If you're a player who moans about being T8 in T10 games, how about you stop the moaning and just play. Nobody wants that type of player on their team so don't be that type. You'll see T8's did quite well in this match. MM is working as intended. Has been for years.

 

 

[Aotearas]

What I can't wrap my head around is if that dude thinks that tier VIII CVs are pointless to the point where he suicides, why would he play that tier VIII CV in the first place?

 

That's like saying fire is hot and then he dunks his hand into the campfire and complains he gets burned ...

[Beastofwar]

Just frustration WG can't fill Tier X matches with Tier X CV where they belong. Tier VIII obviously belongs in tier VIII matches, +1 tier could be perhaps acceptable due to the tier gap in CV.

 

Tier X is just another ball game completely. Tier X AA just swatters squadrons.

 

Yes you can get some score going whith heavy loss of aircraft, be decently rewarded in XP (not credits ) for damaging +2 tier ships but the gameplay is lamentable. The only thing you could do is kill DD since they have the weakest AA, but the low reward for that was already uninteresting, now they have a stack of nerfs protecting them it is downright too low DPM to even go after them.

[Bear__Necessities]

3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Just frustration WG can't fill Tier X matches with Tier X CV where they belong. Tier VIII obviously belongs in tier VIII matches, +1 tier could be perhaps acceptable due to the tier gap in CV.

 

Tier X is just another ball game completely. Tier X AA just swatters squadrons.

 

Yes you can get some score going whith heavy loss of aircraft, be decently rewarded in XP (not credits ) for damaging +2 tier ships but the gameplay is lamentable. The only thing you could do is kill DD since they have the weakest AA, but the low reward for that was already uninteresting, now they have a stack of nerfs protecting them it is downright too low DPM to even go after them.

Can't be that hard, our T8 CV came top...

 

6 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

What I can't wrap my head around is if that dude thinks that tier VIII CVs are pointless to the point where he suicides, why would he play that tier VIII CV in the first place?

 

That's like saying fire is hot and then he dunks his hand into the campfire and complains he gets burned ...

I know! That's what I just don't get sometimes. If he just played and waited he would have won them the game?!

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, Bear_Necessities said:

I know! That's what I just don't get sometimes. If he just played and waited he would have won them the game?!

I'm not exactly sure about lex's plane reserves, but looking at those plane losses, I'd say he was deplaned. So he did play.

 

Not saying he's right or whatever. Just that all it indicates is skillgap is still here, as has been mentioned by plenty of people.

[Beastofwar]

6 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Can't be that hard, our T8 CV came top...

 

 

Luck with team quality......if they can scatter the enemy so targets can be attacked when they are alone, kill AA cruisers so CV can strike fast without evasive detours, and pummel the enemies AA modules so they don't have that effective AA anymore...sure then T8 can do something.

 

But you never know what team you got into.....that is exactly why winrate ( in randoms ) is overrated.

[Bear__Necessities]

Just now, Beastofwar said:

 

Luck with team quality......if they can scatter the enemy so targets can be attacked when they are alone, kill AA cruisers so CV can strike fast without evasive detours, ans pummel the enemies AA modueles so they don't ave that effective AA anymore...sure then T8 can do something.

So you're going to dismiss our CV's hard earned win due to playing skilfully and smart (I was in the game to see it) as luck... really bigging up your fellow CV players here....

 

2 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

I'm not exactly sure about lex's plane reserves, but looking at those plane losses, I'd say he was deplaned. So he did play.

 

Not saying he's right or whatever. Just that all it indicates is skillgap is still here, as has been mentioned by plenty of people.

I get what you're saying. But if he'd then not launched a single squadron until the last 2 mins, his team would have won. He also had enough planes to commit suicide, rather than use them for something team orientated.  

[rnat]

8 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Can't be that hard, our T8 CV came top...

Same thing ppl said back then with RTS CVs...

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

Can't be that hard, our T8 CV came top...

 

To be fair I believe exp gain when bottom tier in a CV is heavily inflated. Several times I've gone out of a T10 match feeling like I've done  all in my Enterprise and yet managed to grab top spot with 2k+ exp.

(Although that could just stem from my target preferences. )

 

Not trying to discredit the guy tho, he clearly pulled his weight according to your description.

[Bear__Necessities]

8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

But you never know what team you got into.....that is exactly why winrate ( in randoms ) is overrated.

And no, that's why WR, especially in randoms is a good indicator of player skill. 

[Xevious_Red]

Unless you want to reclassify the Republique as a DD I'd say tier 8 can do more than hope they can attack a DD

 

This was rough game - no DD, pretty much entirely tier X ships with good AA and a team who *ahem* weren't a fan of doing anything useful. The Hakuryu got his kill from being rammed by a Yamato...

Still did 111k and came top.

 

[Beastofwar]

6 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

So you're going to dismiss our CV's hard earned win due to playing skilfully and smart (I was in the game to see it) as luck... really bigging up your fellow CV players here....

 

 

Nope...because when given opportunity, only then can you show/use skill....

 

Skill is useless without opportunity. And in a +2 match in a CV you really need opportunity.

[Bear__Necessities]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

To be fair I believe exp gain when bottom tier in a CV is heavily inflated. Several times I've gone out of a T10 match feeling like I've done  all in my Enterprise and yet managed to grab top spot with 2k+ exp.

(Although that could just stem from my target preferences. )

 

Not trying to discredit the guy tho, he clearly pulled his weight according to your description.

He really did. He played smart and gave great support over the game. But 2.5 base exp even as a T8 in a T10 heavy game is good by anyone's standards. My biggest gripe is really we should have lost if not for that selfish  of a red CV suicideing and swinging it our way late game. 

[Bear__Necessities]

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Nope...because when given opportunity, only then can you show/use skill....

 

Skill is useless without opportunity.

 

[AirSupremacy]

From a random match, opponent chat.

The opponent's ship is cruising alone, the game has just started and he would have the time to travel to nearby AA ships.

The opponent decides to not travel to nearby AA ships.

 

> Attacking Yamato / Fire

> Attacking Yamato / Fire

"Why are you attacking me?"

Reply: "Because you are the Yamato"

> Attacking Yamato / Fire

"Leave me alone! Go to someone else!!!"

> Attacking Yamato / Fire

"Why are you only attacking me? BTW Fail"

> 8 seconds before the last approach "I WILL DELETE THE GAME" - As the opponent sees the planes coming.

Attacking Yamato / Fire - Sunk

[Xevious_Red]

6 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Nope...because when given opportunity, only then can you show/use skill....

 

Skill is useless without opportunity. And in a +2 match in a CV you really need opportunity.

If by "opportunity" you mean having to try striking a neptune because your team can't work out how to stop being farmed by it, and trying to decap your base from a des moines, hindenburg and montana while the few surviving members of your team sail in the wrong direction, then sure.

 

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, Xevious_Red said:

This was rough game -

61 plane kills by yamato. 40 by republique.

 

All is fine

[Xevious_Red]

3 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

61 plane kills by yamato. 40 by republique.

 

All is fine

 The 40 to the Republique was me. The 61 for the Yamato was our Hak feeding it planes

[DFens_666]

42 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

What I can't wrap my head around is if that dude thinks that tier VIII CVs are pointless to the point where he suicides, why would he play that tier VIII CV in the first place?

Probably hoping for the T6 game where he can finaly rule as the super unicum he knows he deepdown is (and fail miserably, most likely blaming his team in the process)

 

14 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

61 plane kills by yamato. 40 by republique. 

 

All is fine

 

So idiots lose planes to any ship? I think you asked, since when do we balance the game around the worst players.

Wasnt really possible before, its possible now tho... simply "collect" flak bursts. Or just fly around in the AA. Worst players are worse than pre-rework, many people said it (and the stats agree with it).

You could fly T10 planes into T4 flak bursts and still die at some point, which would be basicly impossible with RTS CVs.

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

I think you asked, since when do we balance the game around the worst players.

No, but I do have a problem that cruisers lost (yet another) niche thing of theirs.

 

Sure, that tier ten carrier screwed up, but it still doesn't justify how bb AA is that powerful. Which exactly is the reason why even cv players like that go hunting DDs instead.

 

Better example: I got the hermes two days ago with those special tokens. Played a game with @MortenTardo (yes :P) in it. All was tier 5 except us and another carrier. If I flew near a BB, I lose my planes. Simple as that. No, not eating flak, just from a few seconds in passive AA from things like oktober revolution. Which means I trade off an entire strike group for a few thousand damage.

 

See also

 

where fara has the exact same problem.

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

No, but I do have a problem that cruisers lost (yet another) niche thing of theirs.

 

Sure, that tier ten carrier screwed up, but it still doesn't justify how bb AA is that powerful. Which exactly is the reason why even cv players like that go hunting DDs instead.

 

Better example: I got the hermes two days ago with those special tokens. Played a game with @MortenTardo (yes :P) in it. All was tier 5 except us and another carrier. If I flew near a BB, I lose my planes. Simple as that. No, not eating flak, just from a few seconds in passive AA from things like oktober revolution. Which means I trade off an entire strike group for a few thousand damage.

 

From what ive seen, Okto has INSANE AA, basicly untouchable by T4 CVs. But it was kinda the same with RTS CVs aswell, so nothing changed too much (ive had a couple of Oktos which just shredded my planes).

For other BBs, i cant say. Ive played GK / Musashi, they are pretty helpless against CV planes. Atleast the CV player attacking me didnt lose to many planes in the process. Had CVs also with Massachusetts... that worked a bit better.

 

The problem is, WG is feeding us half of the information from the new AA mechanics. I know how it works now, but im missing the interval, how often AA is dealing damage. I kinda think Okto has a very fast interval, thats why it hurts so much. Havent found that info yet

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

For other BBs, i cant say. Ive played GK / Musashi, they are pretty helpless against CV planes.

Against tier eights as well? You probably don't shoot down a lot of tXs yea.

 

Let me tell you, I feel sorry for people who have to grind at the moment. Sure you can still do nice as the example from @Bear_Necessities shows, but it is extremely heavily luck based. (map and ships mainly) Yesterday I had a midway game, and every team had one tier 8, a lex and an enterprise. Except for one tier nine, everything was tier ten, with triple DM on the enemy team and whatever AA spam we had on our team. They can't do anything except feed their enemies plane kills.

 

To give another aspect of the hermes btw, I had one game the first day as top tier. I can hang over tier three bbs all day long. Cause reasons.

 

None of those seven planes the reds (red...) killed are mine - didn't lose a single one. I have no idea what WG was thinking/drinking/smoking, but the AA difference between tiers is just the stupidest thing ever.

 

I'll play the furious with the tokens, maybe a handful times. After that, I'll just freeXP to tier ten, cause it just isn't worth it.

 

 

[Makoniel]

I'm guilty of suiciding twice as a lexington, but by going to cap the point instead of using my planes on me. I committed seppuku several times by my own depleted squadrons too, but these were cases there was just no chance to win anymore. _{I believe it's what happened to your infamous ennemylexington.} 

Why then? Because when it's the fifth time in a row that you're one of the two tier 8s in your tier X team, you just want to try and be more productive. Doesn't mean I can't perform, I have several 100K damage games in TX Lexington. Yet, for me to get these games is heavily dependant on stupidity and lack of teamplay from the ennemies. It's just that Carriers are the worse ships to be uptiered with at the moment. To get good result in them requires a focus, dedication and planning that is nowhere near what is needed to score in a cruiser or a battleship. You have to be aware of the no go zones... And more often than not, attacking a tier X ship means you'll loose at best half your squadron. It's the only shipclass I ever felt helpless in. 
And so, CVs are the only class in which your ammunition are limited, and limited fast by these sneaky AA cruisers that love to fill up the enemy team's gaps. 
The problem of players losing their will to fight (or just finding unfun to be put against such unfair opposition over and over again) can be solved by a +1/-1 MM for carriers, or by balancing AA more, so that just spotting a minotaur doesn't mean you get 3 planes in yellow before it even appears.

I'd actually find it quite more fair if WG reverted their nerf on the spotting distance on cruisers. I really find stealth AA disgusting.

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, Saiyko said:

I have no idea what WG was thinking/drinking/smoking, but the AA difference between tiers is just the stupidest thing ever.

 

Must be part of the "piss people off so they cash in on free XP to go to TX right away". Its now reaching a level tho, where people are too frustrated obviously - at both ends of the Flak. Had a game aswell right now, where my T8 CV complained about the mm and said he will be useless. I tried to calm him and told him, he should focus on DD spotting and later in the game his time for damage will come. Well. I cant complain, since he did what I asked him to do (lost over 20 planes against the T10 DDs while spotting them for me) but judging from the endscreen - he wont be happy?

 

Honestly - I think we can stop talking about it. WG aint going to change this cascade-model. Higher tier ships now s*** on lower tiers. Im not going to take out my T6 DDs anymore as a reason of that and in the next thread, where someone asks "which premium ship should I buy" I will absolutly point this out, voiting for buying anything else but a =<T8 premium ship.

 

26 minutes ago, Okitank said:

The problem of players losing their will to fight (or just finding unfun to be put against such unfair opposition over and over again) can be solved by a +1/-1 MM for carriers

 

WG stated: +/- 1 mm isnt going to happen.

 

27 minutes ago, Okitank said:

It's the only shipclass I ever felt helpless in. 

 

Try a Shinonome in T8 CV match. Or 2x CV match.

 

25 minutes ago, Okitank said:

I'd actually find it quite more fair if WG reverted their nerf on the spotting distance on cruisers. I really find stealth AA disgusting.

 

You missed the patch.

 

[Makoniel]

I'm playing DDs too, but in a Kagero in a tier X match, even if the CV is here, I can still hope my torps will do something. Heck, I don't go to cap in the first minutes and hug close to my friendly AA ships. 
Tho I agree that Shinonome in T8 may feel helpless too, indeed.

And for the patches, I still got stealth swatted by AA speced mino/desmoines even today. (By stealth AA'd I mean that the moment I spot them, I'm in range of their AA. So I have to turn inside of their long range bubble, which unfairly makes me loose planes over what isn't even a placement mistake.)