Destroyer Comparison!

[Exustio]

I did not say "screwing with the number of murders is bad", I said "murder is bad".

Screwing with hard stats is bad, ergo I am against screwing with hard stats for game balance.

Murder is bad, ergo I am against murdering people for the economy.

Verstanden?

 

Murder always has to be low.  The number of ahistorical (screwed with) hard stats always has to be low.  Just so.

 

If an imbalance is so large that it cannot reasonably be fixed by manipulating those soft stats, then something is simply at the wrong tier.

 

Nein! Nicht verstanden

 

Ok, so u want it to be as realisticly as possible, without considering game balance? Think u are playing the wrong game then mate

 

 Adding an extra turret to either main armament or torpedo is rediculous and i agree that WG should not change the look of each ship (if in real live they have 15 torpedo tubes, then keep it like that)

 

We are simply talking about speed here, it being a stat that does not alter the look of the ship, means imo u can tweak it ever so slightly to promote game balance. Because if we followed your doctrine, certain guns would need tweaking in terms of reload/dmg and the same accounts for torpedos, which in effect causes imbalances. 

 

As i said before, yes i agree with you that WG should stick as close to the original design specifications of a ship, however if that results in imbalances, changes have to be made.....somewhere. Either as u said, change it to a different tier, or start changing "hard" stats. But u can not single out speed as the only nonphysical hardstat as that would mean that gun reload, torpedo damage, turn radius, concealment and many others all have to be changed to their original specifications. I dont think thats better for game balance which is my main concern as in the end, its a game, and i dont think anybody wants to see 10 T54's (for any WoT fans out there) running around per side again. 

 

Verstanden?

 

 

You're assuming that USN DDs are not scoring torpedo hits at all. Tell me, why should USN DDs be very good at guns and good at torpedoes (high tiers and close range torpedoing which they are better than IJN in this regard due to faster znd more torpedoes and shorter reloads) while IJN DDs have to be only good at torpedoes? Offense-wise, the only offense IJN DDs have is the greater range (although Shimakaze loses to in that) but you always get fewer torps (except Shimakaze) sometimes even slower or not that faster (like in tier 7) and much longer reloads. This makes the playstyle very passive, and makes you feel useless until you reload your torpedoes again. Not to mention this style makes you effective mainly against battleships and carriers, while USN destroyers are effective against battleships,carriers, other destroyers, and they can harass cruisers to if needed. Much more flexible playstyle.

I'm not saying make IJN equal in guns to the USN. (The shooting invisible is barely overpowered due to how poor DPM and gun range are, but it will at least give you something to do) But they need real advantage over not only US but the other nations as well (imo detection range for type 93)

 

Aye, i agree, something has to be done, IJN gameplay is indeed quite...."relaxed" compared to the USN. 

 

An increase in DPM wouldnt hurt, but i think the lowering of reloadtime for torpedos is whats going to make the big difference. Point is, i dont think its in the best interrest of the game to become like the USN destroyers in terms of gun DPM, WG seems to want IJN destroyers to indeed be battleship hunters, meaning main guns arnt that big of a deal. 

 

From a personal view, more DPM, bigger gunz and higher concealment stats plz

[Orlunu]

Ok, so u want it to be as realisticly as possible, without considering game balance? Think u are playing the wrong game then mate

They need to design a way to punch people through the internet.  No.  Use historical hard stats, then adjust soft stats and tiering to achieve game balance.

 

We are simply talking about speed here, it being a stat that does not alter the look of the ship, means imo u can tweak it ever so slightly to promote game balance.

Chill, let's just make them able to fly and fire bursts from the torpedo tubes, then.

 

Because if we followed your doctrine, certain guns would need tweaking in terms of reload/dmg and the same accounts for torpedos, which in effect causes imbalances. 

You didn't even read my post, did you?  As I've said before, stop making up stances for me to hold.

 

As i said before, yes i agree with you that WG should stick as close to the original design specifications of a ship, however if that results in imbalances, changes have to be made.....somewhere. Either as u said, change it to a different tier, or start changing "hard" stats.

Or start changing soft stats.

 

But u can not single out speed as the only nonphysical hardstat

What?

 

as that would mean that gun reload, torpedo damage, turn radius, concealment and many others all have to be changed to their original specifications

What?

 

I dont think thats better for game balance which is my main concern as in the end, its a game, and i dont think anybody wants to see 10 T54's (for any WoT fans out there) running around per side again. 

You have presented no reason whatsoever to believe that balance can't be achieved with the scheme I used.

 

 

Please respond to what I am actually saying, not some xxxx you make up yourself to have an easier time arguing against.

[Exustio]

Ok, so u want it to be as realisticly as possible, without considering game balance? Think u are playing the wrong game then mate

They need to design a way to punch people through the internet.  No.  Use historical hard stats, then adjust soft stats and tiering to achieve game balance.

 

Exustio

 All im saying is, yes, WG should try and stick as close as possible to realistic statistics, however, if a major imbalance shows itself that cant be fixed by changing the soft stats, hard stats have to be changed. 

 

Yea, think we basicly say the same thing. 

 

We are simply talking about speed here, it being a stat that does not alter the look of the ship, means imo u can tweak it ever so slightly to promote game balance.

Chill, let's just make them able to fly and fire bursts from the torpedo tubes, then.

Read the statement above. 

 

Because if we followed your doctrine, certain guns would need tweaking in terms of reload/dmg and the same accounts for torpedos, which in effect causes imbalances. 

You didn't even read my post, did you?  As I've said before, stop making up stances for me to hold.

 Hard stats are things like how big a ship was, how many guns it had and what type, how fast it was, and so on.

 How fast it was is not a stat that would change its physical look, something u are unwilling to consider (im stretching the word "consider", which is what i've been hinting at this entire time) to change. We are basicly discussing if speed is a "hard" or "soft" stat, and imo, its a soft stat because of reason mentioned above. 

 

 You didn't even read my post, did you?

 Neither do u as shown by statement 1. 

 

As i said before, yes i agree with you that WG should stick as close to the original design specifications of a ship, however if that results in imbalances, changes have to be made.....somewhere. Either as u said, change it to a different tier, or start changing "hard" stats.

Or start changing soft stats.

Read statement 1...... 

 

But u can not single out speed as the only nonphysical hardstat

What?

Read the 3rd statement, and therefore 1. 

 

as that would mean that gun reload, torpedo damage, turn radius, concealment and many others all have to be changed to their original specifications

What?

Ties into the 4th statement, which in turn leads to 3 and 1. 

 

I dont think thats better for game balance which is my main concern as in the end, its a game, and i dont think anybody wants to see 10 T54's (for any WoT fans out there) running around per side again. 

You have presented no reason whatsoever to believe that balance can't be achieved with the scheme I used.

Can use the same exact statement for my side of the story as well, plus im not saying yours wont work, just saying if all else fails, speed might need to change. 

 

 not some xxxx you make up yourself to have an easier time arguing against.

 

"Murder is bad."

"Lots of people have murdered before."

"That doesn't influence what I said."

 

But i love making up random stuff. 

 

 Back on topic: I dont really mind the speeds, think they are okish where they are. Plus the speed of a ship is hardly ever an issue in WoWs. (ofcourse situations occur when it does matter, but that will never change, at any speed) So changing ship speeds is not on the list of needed fixes

 

I think ive said it a lot now, but here we go: 

 

Stick as close to realism as u possible can, and to balance stuff out, change the soft stats accordingly, and if all else fails call ....

 

Ghostbusters

 

....i mean hard stats. (me streeeeeeeetching it out again, only in exxxxxxxtreme cases)

 

Orlunu, i do have to say, i agree with u that speed doesn't need tweaking, either from an ethical point of view (yours) or a balancing point of view (mine), meaning this discussion was......fun

 

 

[Orlunu]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand...

 

I'm out.

[Takeda92]

Relax guys, we all agree on the same thing, that the way the IJN destroyers in high tiers are not satisfactory if not underwhelming.

 

Speaking of spead, can any developer tell my why Fubuki have ahistorical top speed of 35 kts?

[Exustio]

Heavier, probably because it carries 9 torpedo launchers? Just guessing here. 

[Fominator]

Heavier, probably because it carries 9 torpedo launchers? Just guessing here. 

 

So, the torpedo launchers weight more in WoWS than the real ones or something?

[Exustio]

 

So, the torpedo launchers weight more in WoWS than the real ones or something?

 

dunno, just guessing

[Aerroon]

Relax guys, we all agree on the same thing, that the way the IJN destroyers in high tiers are not satisfactory if not underwhelming.

 

Speaking of spead, can any developer tell my why Fubuki have ahistorical top speed of 35 kts?

I just noticed this too. Shouldn't it be 38 kt?

[Orlunu]

I just noticed this too. Shouldn't it be 38 kt?

 

Yup, and it had damn well better become so at some point.

[Exustio]

Before WG staff asks here as well, Blue it is!

 

[Lolicraft_Carrier_Desu]

Just got into the T6 Mutsuki and man, this thing just absolutely sucks. I cry.

[Orlunu]

Just got into the T6 Mutsuki and man, this thing just absolutely sucks. I cry.

 

Grind through to Fubuki, it all gets much nicer once you've got the third set of torps.

[Exustio]

Just got into the T6 Mutsuki and man, this thing just absolutely sucks. I cry.

 

A slight sign of hope is the T7 Hatsuhara, which will give u more dmg per torpedo and a longer range, whilst keeping your speed. Which will allow u to actually ambush BB's without getting spotted, being your torpedo range is 10km compared to your 6.3km concealment range, giving u a bufferzone of 3.7km to drop the fish in the water and run. This compared to what u had at T6 with a 6km torpedo range with fast speed and only a 5.9km concealment range meant u could not ambush BB's (unless ofc u took the longer torpedo's, which imo is a waste as speed determines a hit more then range)

 

Not to mention, u multiply ur guns to 4 

 

T7 Hatsuhara, eventhough buffs are still required, is a fun ship imo and allows u to play like a Minekaze, only slightly slower. 

[ArrNgee]

You weigh torpspeed too high. E.g. the difference of staying on 5 and 4 km is insane when it comes to dropping torps on battleships with US DDs where you on the tier 6 have 4.5 or 5.5 torps. I picked the 5.5 ones as I rarely use them, and from that range they are normally just so close that I want to torp them to stay alive. Once you get any closer than about 5km the secondaries of battleships will rip you apart

[Exustio]

You weigh torpspeed too high. E.g. the difference of staying on 5 and 4 km is insane when it comes to dropping torps on battleships with US DDs where you on the tier 6 have 4.5 or 5.5 torps. I picked the 5.5 ones as I rarely use them, and from that range they are normally just so close that I want to torp them to stay alive. Once you get any closer than about 5km the secondaries of battleships will rip you apart

 

Well, its a personal opinion really. However, u cant deny that faster torpedo speed allows lower reaction time for the target. 

[Pivke]

so i reached tier 6 Mutsuki destroyer today... played a couple of games with it and sold it. useless ship, i felt i was a dead weight for my team

in my oppinion the IJN destroyers are a fail concept at higher tiers. guns on them are useless, because the turrets turn slow like its a battleship and torps get longer and longer reload times... you only can waste your time while you wait for torpedo reload, being useless for 80% of the match duration is not very fun. and you cant go cap points either, because there is a US destroyer that will happily put his guns to good use on you, while you got nothing to fight back.

 

i kept the Isokaze for when i want some fun matches, and switched to US destroyer line.

 

and here comes the question. for US destroyer commander second skill, do you choose the turret turning skill or the torp reload speed? since the US line doesnt depend so heavily on torps i am in doubt what to take.

[Exustio]

 and here comes the question. for US destroyer commander second skill, do you choose the turret turning skill or the torp reload speed? since the US line doesnt depend so heavily on torps i am in doubt what to take.

 

Imo, id still stick with the torpedo reload, as u will gain the increased turn speed via equipment, which would make the turrets turn fast enough. There is rarely a time when i notice that my turrets turn too slow, thus a faster reload on torps will gain me more (eventhough they arnt my priority as a US DD)

 

Ofcourse opinions may differ, but this is mine. 

[Takeda92]

regarding tier 7 and 8 concealment for IJN destroyers, Hatsuharu have 6,7km and Fubuki has 7km, but unlike Hatsuharu, Fubuki can mount the concealment mod that gives extra 10% which makes her concealment up to 6,3km.

 

[Exustio]

Hello lads, 

 

Sorry for the late update on this thread, was moving house. However i have updated the post with bold lettering being changes, green being an upgrade from previous stats and red(ish) a downgrade. 

 

A overview of changes for the Destroyer line with patch 3.1. 

• Across the board HE is buffed and AP is nerfed. Most significant changes appeared at Tier 5 and up. 
• American DD's have their Main armament reloads nerfed, however with the changes to HE/AP the end result is a slight buff. 
• Just like the USN the IJN had changes to their HE/AP shells, this resulted in a major buff across the board in terms of Main armament compared to USN DD's. 
• Both IJN & USN DD's have had their Torpedo reloads buffed above Tier 6, resulting in more torpedo's/min. 

 

Comments: 

• Eventhough i love the buff in IJN's main armament and the slight buff in torpedo's, i believe the end result is still not enough as these ships now play quite the same. USN DD's can (at higher tiers) play like IJN ships and vice versa, resulting in a lack of diversity. 
• Eventhough torpedo's are buffed for the IJN, i think they need a bit more buffing, and where the IJN Main armament is buffed, i think its a little over buffed (8, 9 & 10, Tier 7 and lower is fine) This, as said before, to promote diversity between the 2 nations. 

 

Hope this will help u guys out, and as always, if i made a mistake somehwere, poke me, and ill change it

 

Exustio

[Shagulon]

Stats can be deceptive.

 

IJN main gun buff seem mostly a DPM calc based on the new HE rounds. I think the main issue is the rotate speed. Like you I like the difference between the two navy philosophy (gun boat vs torp sniper), but torpedo sniping is now extremely hard now that everyone is learning to avoid them better (and helped by quick turn speeds and increased torpedo spotting distances). I don't know what the answer is, but IJN DDs are a little useless above tier 5 or 6.

[Vulgarny]

Hello lads, 

 

Sorry for the late update on this thread, was moving house. However i have updated the post with bold lettering being changes, green being an upgrade from previous stats and red(ish) a downgrade. 

 

A overview of changes for the Destroyer line with patch 3.1. 

• Across the board HE is buffed and AP is nerfed. Most significant changes appeared at Tier 5 and up. 
• American DD's have their Main armament reloads nerfed, however with the changes to HE/AP the end result is a slight buff. 
• Just like the USN the IJN had changes to their HE/AP shells, this resulted in a major buff across the board in terms of Main armament compared to USN DD's. 
• Both IJN & USN DD's have had their Torpedo reloads buffed above Tier 6, resulting in more torpedo's/min. 

 

Comments: 

• Eventhough i love the buff in IJN's main armament and the slight buff in torpedo's, i believe the end result is still not enough as these ships now play quite the same. USN DD's can (at higher tiers) play like IJN ships and vice versa, resulting in a lack of diversity. 
• Eventhough torpedo's are buffed for the IJN, i think they need a bit more buffing, and where the IJN Main armament is buffed, i think its a little over buffed (8, 9 & 10, Tier 7 and lower is fine) This, as said before, to promote diversity between the 2 nations. 

 

Hope this will help u guys out, and as always, if i made a mistake somehwere, poke me, and ill change it

 

Exustio

 

I think you need head check if you want another buff to IJN torps from DDs

[Exustio]

 

I think you need head check if you want another buff to IJN torps from DDs

 

because? Would love to hear a reason.

[Vulgarny]

Because on high tiers what Fubuki,Kagero and Shim are doing to enemy teams with torps is just sad. But please buff me more.

[Userext]

 

because? Would love to hear a reason.

 

gearing consealment got buffed to 7.4