Destroyer Comparison!

[CloakingDonkey]

I like the quick comparison tables. Nice post =)

 

Would it be ok if I directed people to your thread in the Destroyer Guide I'm working on?

[Exustio]

I like the quick comparison tables. Nice post =)

 

Would it be ok if I directed people to your thread in the Destroyer Guide I'm working on?

 

Sure, Knock urself out

[MatJan]

Most of the DDs problems comes from the fact that it is really and I mean REALLY  hard to make an effective long range torpedo run.

And Thus Japanese destroyers which excel at long range torpedo runs are forced to close in where they cannot use their superb camouflage factor.

 

You need to consider that for USN DDs to perform their duties, which is to act as a shield against smaller vessels, they need to be superior against them.

If you take away the superior rate of fire and gun traversing rates, the USN destroyers will become utterly useless. They are fine now I think. They are ( generally) slower than IJN ones, so an IJN DD will always have at least a chance to run away from an USN one. 

 

Also there is the fact that the USN had absolutely superb guns on their destroyers compared to the IJN in real life as well. So Nerfing the USN or buffing the IJN in terms of gun to make them more equal, well that would cause some distress....

 

The best would be in my opinion, that they'd reduce the range at which ships ( maybe other than fellow DDs) detect torpedoes, plus a global smallish nerf to USN Torpedoes in terms of speed and maybe around -5-10% damage would make the IJN DDs more valuable  while also making the USN DDs job more important as a screening force to the fleet.

 

Other than that,

Well, I'd also like to see some kind of progress in terms of maneuverability, detectability and torpedo reload  instead of what we currently have

 

Generally there is no need to reduce damage and speed of US torps to make IJN DDs better at making torpedo attacks, what you said with reducing range of torps being spotted plus removing every plane but scout ability to spot torps is good enough and maybe to make Type 93 torps availble sooner and them being more stealthy than other torps would be enough to make long range attack in IJN DD easier than now.

 

Most US DD players see destroyers by their name not by their clear role of DD hunter-killers and support of bigger ships which is main reason of them doing suecide attacks at the start of the game, that and there is more US DDs now than IJN in game from what I observed by team compositions in games, no wonder here.

IJN DDs get slower reload on torps and main guns slower turret rotation my tier 7 Hatsuharu can only go as fast a 36.4knt(statcard says 37, next Fubuki gets only 35(real life 38) with turning circle of 360 while US tier 8 gets 38 turning 570) while my tier 6 US DD will go 37.4knt so their speed is almost the same at later levels except 10, less HP than US, later almost similar detecting range bys ship difference being usually 1km, they can't defend themselves properly when spoted by US DD and being shot at by it. maybe next patch they will do something with IJN DDs to make them fun at higher tiers.

[Exustio]

 

I think you are tanking a bad approach with that "class" concept, this isn't a MMORPG. US DDs were designed as escorts and AA support for most important ships or supply fleets while the Japanese, following their doctrine, designed their DDs to carry type 93 torpedoes and sink big ships (then WG removed their torps).

 

Also your calculations are a bit off, while is true that Hatsuharu (the game worst DD, BTW) have twice the RoF than Musuki, she have half the turrets, making their DMP around the same.

 

That would mean u can not compare any ship with eachother, as each ship will probably play differently, and how will u compare ships from nations that havnt been added yet? There has to be some way to compare them, and seeing in this instance they are classed as destroyers, i think it would be less confusing if we just kept comparing them with eachother. 

 

And which calculations are off? As i have run them a few times, and i cant seem to find the miscalculation.

[Takeda92]

Yes I agree. Nerfing is always an unpopular decision and buffing IJN torps (detection of type 93) is a better solution.

[AbrahaM_fighter]

Question: could you extend table / could you add to it Sims (T7) and Gremyashchiy(T5)?

[Darlomidge]

Thing is, It's after tier 5 where it begins to get interesting... After Minekaze, IJN Destroyers are all crap... T6 is the worse than Minekaze, except one tier higher. the rest of the Ships on higher tier are awful and useless. I'm sorry, but Minekaze will be the last DD i play from IJN DD line.

 

I'm not gonna spend 90% of the time in battle sitting somewhere on the map and waiting for torp reload, or waiting for my guns to turn where i want them to.

 

- sorry, but, that is just not how i envision having fun.

 

 

 

 

I stopped playing the IJN at the Mutuski, before that I loved the IJN DD's. It's kinda weird how they made the playstyle for the US DD's very similar from tier 1 to 10, yet once you reach tier 6 of the IJN line you need to alter your gameplay completely to even stand a chance at hitting anything. There needs to be more consistency with the DD's in the IJN line.

[Exustio]

Question: could you extend table / could you add to it Sims (T7) and Gremyashchiy(T5)?

 

Done

[AbrahaM_fighter]

 

Done

 

 

tnx a lot

[Takeda92]

Thanks for updating all up to tier 10.

 

Lol the tier 9 balance is a joke. just how much Kagerou has to lose just for 20km useless range? keep in mind that US DDs can fire outside of there detection at this tier. so Basically, >7.4 km you can fire 9 torps instead of 8 of 30 seconds shorter than the Japanese while losing only 1 kt and 1934 damage. Not to mention the other areas where US beats the Kagerou too!

 

 

[tajj7]

 

I completely agree that at some point (probably around the T3/4's) the playstyle and way of thinking should change between the 2 navy's, which imo makes it a lot of fun to play

 

However, i am purely looking at the statistics here, where in the example of the Nicholas and the Minekaze, the balance is "off". 

As a pure example: 

 

The torpedos on the minekaze are about 20% more potent then the Nicholas, and it shows. However the guns on the Nicholas are 250% stronger then the Minekaze, which imo is "off", i can live with 150-200% increase (just guessing here). Like i said, a nerf, not near the Minekaze, but lower, as the torpedoes, eventhough superior in strength, are almost the same for american and japanese in terms of speed, which is the determining factor.

 

Nevertheless, awesome discussion and i hope people will find the comparisons (eventhough playstyles will vary) usefull. 

 

That % comparison is meaningless.

 

The Minekaze can launch torps undetected either using the faster 7km ones or the tad slower but longer 10km ones, either way pair that with it's 5.9km surface detectability range, smoke screen and the spotted perk you have an incredibly powerful combination.

 

You can launch torps undetected, the Nicholas will struggle to do that, it's torps only really work for ambush tactics at close range against very distracted targets so whilst the Minekaze can basically stalk it's prey and be launching torpedoes every time it reloads the Nicholas needs to wait for opportunity so that is why it's guns are much better.

 

The Minekaze is the strongest DD in the game atm, US DDs should very much kick it's butt 1v1, if you give IJN DDs better guns then the US DDs become meaningless at least at that tier. Higher tier IJN torp reloads need an increase. 

[Eisenengel]

In the IJN DD line, the minekaze was very fun to play. Its combination of stealth and decent torpedoes meant you could do some very fun things (read: cause massive damage, sneak past the enemy fleet and sink carriers, etc - I called it 'ninja with 7 ton torpedo backstab'). Then I got the next DD and stopped playing them. The torpedoes were basically a lot worse, for no discernible advantage, the reload time was a major hurdle. Higher tier but worse. Kinda same as the Fuso -> Nagato.

[Fominator]

That would mean u can not compare any ship with eachother, as each ship will probably play differently, and how will u compare ships from nations that havnt been added yet? There has to be some way to compare them, and seeing in this instance they are classed as destroyers, i think it would be less confusing if we just kept comparing them with eachother.

 

I know is a bad example, but look at WoT, some tanks aren't even comparable with the other tanks in their own line, they play totally different. Just imagine if WG introduces Akizuki (autumn moon, poetic as [edited]and folded over 100 times) in the tree or as premium (or maybe as a soviet premium), she have 4x2 10cm DP guns (good AA), 4x2 type 93 tubes and 33 kts max speed (slow for the average IJN DD), she'll be completely different to the other DDs in the line.

 

I know is a hard work, but ships should be balanced around usefulness and efectivity in a 12 vs 12 game with a random composition. That's a nightmare for the devs but doable see: Dota 2.

 

 

And which calculations are off? As i have run them a few times, and i cant seem to find the miscalculation.

 

My bad I was doing it by memory and I'm wrong. Currently (upgraded) Mutsuki have 2 turrets with 10.9 RoF and (upgraded) Hatsuharu 2 double turrets with 6x2 RoF and more damage, so she have more DPM. Her guns, which you don't want to shot, are sightly better.

 

She used to have  have the worst base detectability in the IJN line with 7km seems WG changed it (without stating it in the patchnotes) and now is 6,7km. She used to have the  the worst detectability in the IJN tree, since she can't equip the concealment modernization.  Now seems that record belong to Shimakaze, another nail in the coffin of the IJN DD line.

[Takeda92]

 

I know is a bad example, but look at WoT, some tanks aren't even comparable with the other tanks in their own line, they play totally different. Just imagine if WG introduces Akizuki (autumn moon, poetic as [edited]and folded over 100 times) in the tree or as premium (or maybe as a soviet premium), she have 4x2 10cm DP guns (good AA), 4x2 type 93 tubes and 33 kts max speed (slow for the average IJN DD), she'll be completely different to the other DDs in the line.

 

Akizuki will be on the regular line, most likely tier 10.

 

Also I disagree on not shooting Hatsuharu's guns. If you see a low health Destroyer or cruiser, or another Japanese DD, or you are in a group of other destroyers and you wolf-packed someone, then use them. You need all the damage you can get on this ship. They turn slow from one side to the other, but as long as you have them on the side you're shooting from, they will turn fast enough, and 4 127mm AP shells landing on a destroyers are not so bad.

[Fominator]

Also I disagree on not shooting Hatsuharu's guns. If you see a low health Destroyer or cruiser, or another Japanese DD, or you are in a group of other destroyers and you wolf-packed someone, then use them.

 

All situational examples. Better guns are always welcome, like better AA, but (for me) they are just nice extras. The main factors to decide if a DD is good or bad, are torpedoes and detectability, followed by speed and maneuverability.

 

It may vary for each player though. As example,  I dislike the current playstile of US DDs, they are mere suicide boats for me.

[DestoryerO_o]

 

100mm Type 98 Naval gun   (Akizuki's main battery guns)

 

Check out the Turret traverse  compared to IJN 127mm Gun Turrets. 

 

 

[Fominator]

Check out the Turret traverse  compared to IJN 127mm Gun Turrets. 

 

That's haunting me from some weeks ago. Also, while being lesser caliber they have more muzzle speed and more HE charge, and lets not compare the RoF. They are the wet dream of any IJN DD player.

[Broevaharo]

I will only say one thing, I will gladly take my Minekaze into a tier 10 fight and I'm pretty sure it will perform better than the tier10 counterparts of both sides with a really nice repair bill if I accidently would get spotted and get sunk.

[DestoryerO_o]

I will only say one thing, I will gladly take my Minekaze into a tier 10 fight and I'm pretty sure it will perform better than the tier10 counterparts of both sides with a really nice repair bill if I accidently would get spotted and get sunk.

 

I second that !

[Fominator]

I will only say one thing, I will gladly take my Minekaze into a tier 10 fight and I'm pretty sure it will perform better than the tier10 counterparts of both sides with a really nice repair bill if I accidently would get spotted and get sunk.

 

100% agree. Shimakaze can't even rush and contest cap points due to her reload times.

[kamuka]

Just for the sake of it, here's torpedo DPM by tier for the japanese DDs.

 

T2 68000

T3 60746

T4 112696

T5 112696

T6 52560

T7 62039

T8 93058

T9  67094

T10 106952

 

That is just seriously off.

 

[Broevaharo]

 

100% agree. Shimakaze can't even rush and contest cap points due to her reload times.

 

I think all players that sailed with the Minekaze will agree which shows that there is some work to do on balancing the tiers above tier 5

[Takeda92]

Let's hope we see buff for the t6+ instead of nerf for t5 and below.

[Fominator]

Just for the sake of it, here's torpedo DPM by tier for the japanese DDs...

 

You should factor that Kagero and Shimakaze can equip a -15% reload modernization, which stacks multiplicatively with the captain skill, so their DPM is higher.

 

Still, it doesn't make for the tier difference nor the reload times.

 

 

I think all players that sailed with the Minekaze will agree which shows that there is some work to do on balancing the tiers above tier 5

 

That stats from the RU server published by WG agree too.

 

Let's hope we see buff for the t6+ instead of nerf for t5 and below.

 

If WG nerf the lower tiers instead of buffing the higher ones I can just quit without any regret.

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

Generally there is no need to reduce damage and speed of US torps to make IJN DDs better at making torpedo attacks, what you said with reducing range of torps being spotted plus removing every plane but scout ability to spot torps is good enough and maybe to make Type 93 torps availble sooner and them being more stealthy than other torps would be enough to make long range attack in IJN DD easier than now.

 

Most US DD players see destroyers by their name not by their clear role of DD hunter-killers and support of bigger ships which is main reason of them doing suecide attacks at the start of the game, that and there is more US DDs now than IJN in game from what I observed by team compositions in games, no wonder here.

IJN DDs get slower reload on torps and main guns slower turret rotation my tier 7 Hatsuharu can only go as fast a 36.4knt(statcard says 37, next Fubuki gets only 35(real life 38) with turning circle of 360 while US tier 8 gets 38 turning 570) while my tier 6 US DD will go 37.4knt so their speed is almost the same at later levels except 10, less HP than US, later almost similar detecting range bys ship difference being usually 1km, they can't defend themselves properly when spoted by US DD and being shot at by it. maybe next patch they will do something with IJN DDs to make them fun at higher tiers.

 

By nerfing I really only meant by 2-4 knots and/or 500-1000 damage minus, which would not make that big of a difference, It would just make it more clear that USN DDs are not really mainly for torping stuff

But hey I'm all for not nerfing stuff

 

 

QUESTION TIME!!

What do you think is the ideal ROF of torpedoes on DDs?

I'm thinking that the tier 10s should not have a lower ROF than 0.6 and higher than 0.8 ( I'd love the 0.6 more though) while on lower tiers a maximum of 1.5 would be nice.

I'd thought it would be better if they'd buff the current values by nearly double at tier 9 and 10 and reduce the higher values on lower tiers by 0,3-1 depending on the ship. ( this is more for tier 2-4 with the really high ROF)