Destroyer Comparison!

[Exustio]

Hello ladies and gentlemen, 

 

Hope this comparison sheet will help u guys make better decisions which tree to pick, how to play, and possibly notice any imbalances within the Destroyer classes. 

 

!!!!!Excel WoWs Comparison Sheet!!!!!

 

The Destroyers and Battleships can be found in their Tabs on the Excel sheets!

 

I hope these statistics might encourage some changes, as some are really needed. If nerfing is too much of a problem, then buffing their respective counterparts might be the solution.

 

As i stated before, the comments are usually my opinion and yours might differ, and if i have made any mistakes in calculations/observations do point me in the right direction please

 

I will most likely see u guys on the battlefield, and i will be glad to sink u to the bottom with a torpedo or 2

 

Exustio

 

If u like these comparisons a thumbs up would be lovely

[eidias]

Us destroyers are all about guns, japanese one are all about torpedoes. So nicholas has better gun, while minekaze has better torpedoes.. it seems fair to me. In a 1vs1 fight nicholas will usually win and that's ok because us dd are great as anti-dd. Minekaze will have better chance in killing capital ships, cause that's what jap dd are for

[Exustio]

 Us destroyers are all about guns, japanese one are all about torpedoes. So nicholas has better gun, while minekaze has better torpedoes.. it seems fair to me. In a 1vs1 fight nicholas will usually win and that's ok because us dd are great as anti-dd. Minekaze will have better chance in killing capital ships, cause that's what jap dd are for 

 

I agree with you that early on the american tree is about killing fellow destroyers, and japanese are aimed at bruising cruisers/battleships. I do not agree with the fact that the Nicholas is balanced, as the dmg in torpedoes (which is the japanese way of playing destroyers) between the 2 nations is negligable, along with its speed. The only trump the Minekaze has is the range, which is 7km, but in fairness, u will fire at targets closer to 5 or even 4, just round islands etc. This means, that the Nicholas, apart from bruising destroyers is just as capable of killing battleships. The overall performance between the 2 is too great. 

 

I would have agreed with you if the Nicholas torpedoes were crap, then the roles will be obvious (a slight nerf in main armament still needed though), Nicholas destroyer killer, Minekaze battleship killer. Unfortunatly, they difference is too small, which results in the nicholas being better in every department. 

[matsc]

Nice to see some numbers comparing the destroyers . +1

But you have missed 1 number that is very important for destroyers, spotting range.

This you need to have in the comparison.

 

Something that I noticed when playing Clemson is that it lost a lot of speed when turning.

This is not something I noticed in other DDs but I might have missed it at tier 2 & 3.

But it might be important info.

[Exustio]

Nice to see some numbers comparing the destroyers . +1

But you have missed 1 number that is very important for destroyers, spotting range.

This you need to have in the comparison.

 

Something that I noticed when playing Clemson is that it lost a lot of speed when turning.

This is not something I noticed in other DDs but I might have missed it at tier 2 & 3.

But it might be important info.

 

Thanks for the thumbs up

 

Spotting looks like it works different in WoWs compared to for example WoT. The spotting range is dependent on the camo of the ship. Meaning, your ship can be spotted from 10km away by an enemy ship and 5km from an airplane, this leads to my assumption that your own personal view range is endless, and u can only spot an enemy ship dependent on its own concealment range. I will put it in the table though, as i need to change it anyways as it expands beyond my screen......which is.....unfortunate

 

Unfortunatly, the speed when turning can vary, and is therefore open for discussion, thus not a fixed stat. Nevertheless, i will put it in the comments below

 

Edit: Added concealment & turning speed

[Rambe]

Did you notice that you can't put upgraded main armaments&torpedoes in stock hull of Nicholas, so if you wan't 5 turrets you need to use those slowfiring 127mm guns and slowerrunning torpedoes.

[Bl4ckh0g]

Didn't you forget that with the upgraded hull the Clemson gets the double mounts, thus doubling her firepower? That ship has enormous firepower at tier 4, it can take on any destroyer any day up to tier 9 and have a nice chance...

[Exustio]

Did you notice that you can't put upgraded main armaments&torpedoes in stock hull of Nicholas, so if you wan't 5 turrets you need to use those slowfiring 127mm guns and slowerrunning torpedoes.

 

Noticed, gonna change that. That should make it seem less OP cause how it looks now is just rediculous.

 

Didn't you forget that with the upgraded hull the Clemson gets the double mounts, thus doubling her firepower? That ship has enormous firepower at tier 4, it can take on any cruiser any day up to tier 9 and have a nice chance...

 

Missed that, should make it OP as hell in T4...

 

Edit: Added and upgraded

[Bl4ckh0g]

 

Noticed, gonna change that. That should make it seem less OP cause how it looks now is just rediculous.

 

 

Missed that, should make it OP as hell in T4...

 

destroyers not cruisers I meant DDs, sorry for that It seems I fixed it too late

 

[Takeda92]

problem with Nicholas is that it also has good torpedoes. imo US destroyers need to have torpedoes that are way worse the the Japanese ones in all aspects and on all tiers, because the difference between their torpedoes is not that huge while the difference in their guns is extremely huge.

[Fominator]

Comparing US DDs and IJN DDs just by raw numbers is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Minekaze is probably the best DD in game ATM, and the next patch does nothing for DDs, so she'll be the best for a time.

 

Anyways, you are right, the poor Minekaze is totally UP and she need buffs ASAP.

 

(edited to promote the DD agenda),

[Takeda92]

Comparing US DDs and IJN DDs just by raw numbers is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Minekaze is probably the best DD in game ATM, and the next patch does nothing for DDs, so she'll be the best for a time.

 

shh, if they hear you they might nerf the hell out of it 

[DestoryerO_o]

Thing is, It's after tier 5 where it begins to get interesting... After Minekaze, IJN Destroyers are all crap... T6 is the worse than Minekaze, except one tier higher. the rest of the Ships on higher tier are awful and useless. I'm sorry, but Minekaze will be the last DD i play from IJN DD line.

 

I'm not gonna spend 90% of the time in battle sitting somewhere on the map and waiting for torp reload, or waiting for my guns to turn where i want them to.

 

- sorry, but, that is just not how i envision having fun.

 

[McLeod]

Comparing US DDs and IJN DDs just by raw numbers is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

Minekaze is probably the best DD in game ATM, and the next patch does nothing for DDs, so she'll be the best for a time.

 

Anyways, you are right, the poor Minekaze is totally UP and she need buffs ASAP.

 

(edited to promote the DD agenda),

 

Yeah I agree the Minekaze is probably the best DD in the game - definitely the best out of the ones I've tried so far.

 

The next patch does affect DD's as it reduces the visibility range of torpedoes from the air making stealthy attacks even more viable and giving more chance of success.

 

Also as was said before Concealment is 1 of, if not the most important factors when discussing DD's so any comparison done without this is practically useless due to the way that concealment affects the different play styles between US and IJN.

This study is good but only as far as 1 on 1 DD gun fights go.

[Exustio]

 

Yeah I agree the Minekaze is probably the best DD in the game - definitely the best out of the ones I've tried so far.

 

The next patch does affect DD's as it reduces the visibility range of torpedoes from the air making stealthy attacks even more viable and giving more chance of success.

 

Also as was said before Concealment is 1 of, if not the most important factors when discussing DD's so any comparison done without this is practically useless due to the way that concealment affects the different play styles between US and IJN.

This study is good but only as far as 1 on 1 DD gun fights go.

 

Which is the purpose of this post In the end, the destroyers should be compared to eachother and i agree, we should look at this as a 1 on 1 engagement. Looking beyond this scope results in dragging in the cruisers in terms of torpedo capability and Battleships, in their lack of manouvrability in response of torpedos. 

 

 

[McLeod]

 

Which is the purpose of this post In the end, the destroyers should be compared to eachother and i agree, we should look at this as a 1 on 1 engagement. Looking beyond this scope results in dragging in the cruisers in terms of torpedo capability and Battleships, in their lack of manouvrability in response of torpedos. 

 

 

 

Trouble with destoyer's is that it's so hard to compare them on a 1 on basis.  Tiers 2 and 3 is fine as the stats are so close, tier 4 it's reasonable but after that even though both lines are called destroyers they have 2 very different roles.  

 

The US are more of a destroyer/escort ship with their ideal job being screening larger ships and protecting against destroyer attacks where their gun advantage can really shine, ambushing larger enemy ships when given the opportunity.

The IJN of T5 and above take the role of a hunter killer using their superior torpedo range and concealment advantage to harass and attack the larger ships whilst their guns are more helpful in self defence as opposed to attack.

 

Your study is great, is gives people a really good idea of how the 2 trees compare against each other statistically and I'm sure will help people in choosing what they want to go for.  What would be great is a comparison of how the 2 trees compare from an operation standpoint.

If I use your conclusion on the Nicholas as an example you say it requires a nerf due to it's damage scaling and performance which based on the raw stats is a fair assumption.  However if we look at it from an operational standpoint the Minekaze far out performs the Nicholas, mainly down to the higher potential for torpedo attack success and survivability due to superior concealment. 

[Exustio]

 

Trouble with destoyer's is that it's so hard to compare them on a 1 on basis.  Tiers 2 and 3 is fine as the stats are so close, tier 4 it's reasonable but after that even though both lines are called destroyers they have 2 very different roles.  

 

The US are more of a destroyer/escort ship with their ideal job being screening larger ships and protecting against destroyer attacks where their gun advantage can really shine, ambushing larger enemy ships when given the opportunity.

The IJN of T5 and above take the role of a hunter killer using their superior torpedo range and concealment advantage to harass and attack the larger ships whilst their guns are more helpful in self defence as opposed to attack.

 

Your study is great, is gives people a really good idea of how the 2 trees compare against each other statistically and I'm sure will help people in choosing what they want to go for.  What would be great is a comparison of how the 2 trees compare from an operation standpoint.

If I use your conclusion on the Nicholas as an example you say it requires a nerf due to it's damage scaling and performance which based on the raw stats is a fair assumption.  However if we look at it from an operational standpoint the Minekaze far out performs the Nicholas, mainly down to the higher potential for torpedo attack success and survivability due to superior concealment. 

 

I completely agree that at some point (probably around the T3/4's) the playstyle and way of thinking should change between the 2 navy's, which imo makes it a lot of fun to play

 

However, i am purely looking at the statistics here, where in the example of the Nicholas and the Minekaze, the balance is "off". 

As a pure example: 

 

The torpedos on the minekaze are about 20% more potent then the Nicholas, and it shows. However the guns on the Nicholas are 250% stronger then the Minekaze, which imo is "off", i can live with 150-200% increase (just guessing here). Like i said, a nerf, not near the Minekaze, but lower, as the torpedoes, eventhough superior in strength, are almost the same for american and japanese in terms of speed, which is the determining factor.

 

Nevertheless, awesome discussion and i hope people will find the comparisons (eventhough playstyles will vary) usefull. 

[Bl4ckh0g]

(This whole thing is based on USN tier 2-6 gameplay, bear that in mind)

Okay so I did not really played any of the IJN DDs, I tried them and I did miserable in them. 

On the Other hand I'm very good in USN DDs.

Like really good.

Like really really good.

(I'm just bragging here)

 

On the serious note.

Well, to be honest I think you should watch the 2 lines of DDs as two separate class.

What I mean is that, the USN DDs are absolutely horrible in terms of torpedoes.( at least they should be compared to IJN)

USN DDs are not for torpedoing, they are for Anti-DD work. Torpedoes are nice when you can shoot them at a distracted BB, but you cannot really expect to do anything with them otherwise.

This is clearly shows in XP gains as well. I had matches in USN DDs when I did not hit with a single torpedo and all I did was 25-30 k damage. But I received 2 k xp, and I got that amount because I actively hunted down enemy DDs and killed low-HP cruisers. 

The IJN is meant for anti-ship work while the USN DDs are specialized for light-target removal. They can protect the fleet against DDs and can shoot down some planes before they reach the BBs.

Thus I'm advising that USN DDs should really not be compared against IJNs without considering that the two nation's ships are entirely different in terms of roles.

 

Also Losing 1 turret in favor for extra AA doesn't really affect USN DDs much since the only time when matters is when you fight against an other USN DD, 

About the 4,5 km torps being bad. I do not really think so. I mean compared to 5,5 km ones they are better. You have to close in around 3 km to effectively torpedo someone and the extra damage of the 4,5 km torpedoes is much welcomed compared to plus 1 km range....

[Takeda92]

Well that's the problem. The US torpedoes, stats wise, are not that bad compared to IJN ones. In some cases US torpedoes are better at close range because of more and faster torpedoes, like in tier 7.

[Fominator]

The next patch does affect DD's as it reduces the visibility range of torpedoes from the air making stealthy attacks even more viable and giving more chance of success.

 

It also increases the patrol radius of reconnaissance planes, making stealthy attacks even less viable and giving them less chance of success, specially for US DDs after 5, when the sky is filled with scouts.

 

Which is the purpose of this post In the end, the destroyers should be compared to eachother and i agree, we should look at this as a 1 on 1 engagement. Looking beyond this scope results in dragging in the cruisers in terms of torpedo capability and Battleships, in their lack of manouvrability in response of torpedos. 

 

But you aren't supposed to engage US DDs in a IJN one, while is the opposite for the US suicide boats. 1 Vs 1 in a ring isn't a good comparison in the current game. And the same goes for CAs, you can't really compare the factions tier by tier in 1 vs 1 fights.

[Exustio]

(This whole thing is based on USN tier 2-6 gameplay, bear that in mind)

Okay so I did not really played any of the IJN DDs, I tried them and I did miserable in them. 

On the Other hand I'm very good in USN DDs.

Like really good.

Like really really good.

(I'm just bragging here)

 

On the serious note.

Well, to be honest I think you should watch the 2 lines of DDs as two separate class.

What I mean is that, the USN DDs are absolutely horrible in terms of torpedoes.( at least they should be compared to IJN)

USN DDs are not for torpedoing, they are for Anti-DD work. Torpedoes are nice when you can shoot them at a distracted BB, but you cannot really expect to do anything with them otherwise.

This is clearly shows in XP gains as well. I had matches in USN DDs when I did not hit with a single torpedo and all I did was 25-30 k damage. But I received 2 k xp, and I got that amount because I actively hunted down enemy DDs and killed low-HP cruisers. 

The IJN is meant for anti-ship work while the USN DDs are specialized for light-target removal. They can protect the fleet against DDs and can shoot down some planes before they reach the BBs.

Thus I'm advising that USN DDs should really not be compared against IJNs without considering that the two nation's ships are entirely different in terms of roles.

 

Also Losing 1 turret in favor for extra AA doesn't really affect USN DDs much since the only time when matters is when you fight against an other USN DD, 

About the 4,5 km torps being bad. I do not really think so. I mean compared to 5,5 km ones they are better. You have to close in around 3 km to effectively torpedo someone and the extra damage of the 4,5 km torpedoes is much welcomed compared to plus 1 km range....

 

Same class, different playstyles, think we can all agree that the americans DD's are DD killers, and the Japanese DD's are the BB killers, and i think we all dont mind this different way of thinking/playstyle. The problem is when either one of these navy's start to be just as good as their opposing BB counterparts (hinting towards the nicholas, again) The idea was, that the japanese DD's are supposed to kill BB's with torpedos and lack in the main armament department to fend off DD's, the american, should therefore be the exact opposite. Unfortunatly, that difference is sometimes vague, and the moment it starts to get vague, it makes the DD's of the opposing nation obsolete, as the other one out performs both in main armament and torpedos. Yes there might be a small difference, and the torpedoes/armament on one is better then the other, but the moment it becomes a "small difference" the deal is up. 

 

However, keep in mind, this is CBT and things are subject to change

[2ndaryBattleTank]

Nicolas better than a Minekaze? I beg to differ. The Nicolas is good, especially the guns, but the combination of superb concealment, small size, top of the line maneuverability, long torpedo range and short torpedo reload time make the Minekaze a true terror to every ship in the battle. The ability to stay virtually undetected while spamming torpedoes is borderline OP, and from close range most ships will have lots of trouble hitting you. Just keep it away from American DDs because they will dodge your torps and kill you with their guns. Or not. You can always get real close and torp them anyway, sailing away laughing...

[Exustio]

 

It also increases the patrol radius of reconnaissance planes, making stealthy attacks even less viable and giving them less chance of success, specially for US DDs after 5, when the sky is filled with scouts.

 

 

But you aren't supposed to engage US DDs in a IJN one, while is the opposite for the US suicide boats. 1 Vs 1 in a ring isn't a good comparison in the current game. And the same goes for CAs, you can't really compare the factions tier by tier in 1 vs 1 fights.

 

In game, yes you are right, the moment i see a american DD and im in a japanese DD, i run. However, i mean the comparison in terms of stats here. Playstyle will differ in this class but is still catagorized as a single class. 

[Fominator]

Playstyle will differ in this class but is still catagorized as a single class. 

 

I think you are tanking a bad approach with that "class" concept, this isn't a MMORPG. US DDs were designed as escorts and AA support for most important ships or supply fleets while the Japanese, following their doctrine, designed their DDs to carry type 93 torpedoes and sink big ships (then WG removed their torps).

 

Also your calculations are a bit off, while is true that Hatsuharu (the game worst DD, BTW) have twice the RoF than Musuki, she have half the turrets, making their DMP around the same.

[Bl4ckh0g]

Most of the DDs problems comes from the fact that it is really and I mean REALLY  hard to make an effective long range torpedo run.

And Thus Japanese destroyers which excel at long range torpedo runs are forced to close in where they cannot use their superb camouflage factor.

 

You need to consider that for USN DDs to perform their duties, which is to act as a shield against smaller vessels, they need to be superior against them.

If you take away the superior rate of fire and gun traversing rates, the USN destroyers will become utterly useless. They are fine now I think. They are ( generally) slower than IJN ones, so an IJN DD will always have at least a chance to run away from an USN one. 

 

Also there is the fact that the USN had absolutely superb guns on their destroyers compared to the IJN in real life as well. So Nerfing the USN or buffing the IJN in terms of gun to make them more equal, well that would cause some distress....

 

The best would be in my opinion, that they'd reduce the range at which ships ( maybe other than fellow DDs) detect torpedoes, plus a global smallish nerf to USN Torpedoes in terms of speed and maybe around -5-10% damage would make the IJN DDs more valuable  while also making the USN DDs job more important as a screening force to the fleet.

 

Other than that,

Well, I'd also like to see some kind of progress in terms of maneuverability, detectability and torpedo reload  instead of what we currently have