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Belfast [Post Giulio Cesare saga]

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Been thinking about the Belfast and Fujin/Kami R in the context of assuming that Julie Chez get's up tiered or if not up tiered actually nerfed [because, let's face it, something IS going to change]

 

If Chez stays as she is, there's a compelling argument that other OP ships previously withdrawn should be made available again for equality's sake. It's not acceptable to leave an OP Musso-boat kicking around whilst denying access to other ships with similarly advantageous characteristics.

 

If she's up-tiered can we expect to see the other ships assessed in the same way and made available again? Does Belfast work at 8? Do the Kami and Fujin work at 6?

 

Similarly, could another outcome to the whole issue simply be a change to MM wherein OP ships are simply levelled through MM? Example being the Julie might stay at 5 but be MM'd at 6, Belfast only ever see's T7 and 8 but not T6 ships?

 

Thoughts*?

 

 

*or tirades for those who cannae help themselves

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2 minutes ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

Belfast is weak.  She sould be at Tier VI.

I totally agree.

I'd be very very upset if they touch my Belfast, but if it's to buff her or move her to tier 6, I could understand.

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20 minutes ago, Hedgehog1963 said:

Belfast is weak.  She sould be at Tier VI.

 

15 minutes ago, elblancogringo said:

I totally agree.

I'd be very very upset if they touch my Belfast, but if it's to buff her or move her to tier 6, I could understand.

Great idea!

While they are at it WG should give Belfast back the torpedo tubes that it actually had during WW2.

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3 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

If she's up-tiered can we expect to see the other ships assessed in the same way and made available again? Does Belfast work at 8? Do the Kami and Fujin work at 6?

Belfast at t8 would be a joke. That ship has great consumable suite AND is a t7 Radar ship but putting her in the environment faced by t8 ships? With all the much superior Radar (especially after the latest buff)? She would still be gimmicky but, frankly, quite underpowered overall. What's worse, she seems to be a ship that can't be balanced without betraying her characteristics. As a ship she's vastly inferior to Fiji, for example, so there's no point in really nerfing that any further. On the other hand consumables are pretty damn hard to balance so that they remain relevant (keeping Belfast Belfast) but are less OP... I don't think Belfast can be fixed. Certainly not easily.

 

As for Kamikaze, this is a more interesting question. You see, Kamikaze is a very strange ship because she has short range torps but they are fast and reload fast. Her hull, on the other hand, is pretty weak - she can't really fight with her guns well even at t5. On third hand, Kamikaze is stealthy. What it means is that uptiering Kamikaze works... strangley. She could work as she is on

 - tier 6, where she would be weaker but (by comparison) stealthier than she is at t5

 - tier 7, where she would be by far the stealthiest t7 ship, making her very powerful in the right hands (at least in no CV matches)

 - tier 8, where she would be a f*cking ninja; she would die from high tier DDs (nevermind cruisers) looking at her funny but can you imagine Kamikaze with a concealment mod!?

 

In fact, t8 Kamikaze would be the ultimate trollboat. Compare her with Kagero:

Kamikaze R

hp 11100 (13900 with SE)

speed 37.5 kn

concealment: 6.2

3x2 torps with 47s reload time

7km torp range, 68 knots

torpedo damage 14400 apiece

 

Kagero

hp 15100 (17900 with SE)

speed 35 kn

concealment: 6.8

2x4 torps with 112s reload time (+ potentially booster instead of smoke)

10km torp range, 67 knots

torpedo damage 20966 apiece

 

Kamikaze is much stealthier, significantly faster, much more fragile and (unless Kagero runs reload module and uses it a lot) has more torp dpm because Kamikaze can just spam them so often, even if it's just 6 per salvo. Just giving her t8 modules would make her a super-gimmicky, extremely vulnerable to planes and Radar BUT actually still a viable ship.

 

This is all made possible because IJN DDs scale so much into higher damage, more per salvo, slower reloading torps that they often feel like a side-grades to the previous ones. The hulls get better but torpboats are still weak so that's not a big improvement. They do, however, get bigger and lose concealment - which is a very heavy trade-off for these extra hp. This means that DDs tend to punch up better than other classes and benefit from being top tier less than most (unless it's for DD vs DD duels), but Kamikaze in this case is actually a special existence due to the speed of her torps. At t5 they are good range and awesome speed torps. At t8-9 they would be a very short range, but the speed would still be acceptable while the amazing concealment (compared to any DDs she might meet) and decent hull speed (to avoid contact with things that outgun her... meaning literally everything)  would alleviate a lot of the "my torps are so short" burden. Just like Shima can use her speed and concealment to try and make the 8km F3 torps work.

 

Of course, Kamikaze isn't as fast as Shima and her torps are clearly slower, even shorter and weaker than F3... but the super-concealment when compared even to Kagero, speed and handling better than Yugumo (another F3 torp carrier DD) and ultra-fast (especially for t8+ standards) reload would make for a REALLY fun ninja ship. She would be going boom the moment someone catches her with Radar, of course, and don't get me started on being spotted by a CV (she basically has no AA), but as gimmicky as all that would be... I'd be f*cking playing her. And people would hate me for that more than they do when I take her out as a t5 :Smile_trollface:

 

And in a match with no CV and no Radars (a rare thing but it happens, or there's few Radars that might die early) - a t8 Kamikaze (with no changes other than access to tier-appropriate upgrade slots) would be actually arguably more OP than a t5 Kamikaze :Smile-_tongue: She'd be pretty much invisible :Smile_teethhappy: I mean, KAGERO is considered super stealthy and Kamikaze would enjoy, if I didn't make a mistake in my math, over 400m advantage in maximum concealment. While being significantly faster and turning better (a bit worse rudder shift but 90m less turning radius and that's what matters the most on DDs since the rudder shift tends to be "fast enough" anyway, and 2.9s and 2.7s isn't a big difference anyway).

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22 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Been thinking about the Belfast and Fujin/Kami R in the context of assuming that Julie Chez get's up tiered or if not up tiered actually nerfed [because, let's face it, something IS going to change]

 

Belfast to T-8 would be a good move, it's sister is Edinburgh after all. Update the radar and plating to T-8 and leave everything else alone. 

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And conlusion is ? Nerf first Stalingrad, Musashi and Jan Bart ! (I know - their time will come soon or later, but not now). In meantime Kami, Belfast and dinosaurs like Imperator or Arkansas and watch how future sales are going down to a new lowest levels.

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Well despite beeing powercrept a bit Belfi is still strong and would work at t8-10 bracket (well as much as any t8 cruiser does) smoke is more of a sidenote nowdays (even for a cruiser) with all the radar and smoke spotting nerfs but still give some advantage, same goes for kutuzov that could do its job as t9 just the same, with current mm you face t8/9 in belfi and t10 in kuzu all the time anyhow

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The idea of up-tiering the OP ships like Belfast, Kami, etc. could work quite well and I guess this is what WG uses GC as a guinea-pig for. The reason for chosing GC I wanna believe is due to the arrival of Regia Marina in the game is planned, more chance earning money on re-releases compared to premiums for old lines. 

 

The thing is as Yegwy said, they already sees alot of high tier games and many players make good use of them even when bottom tier. Look at my Kami, only thing that worries me in current meta are those radar equpped ships at T7 any way and when bottom tier I just wait for them to get detected and then raid another part of the map. 

 

The question would be what tweaks that would be needed for each ship and and how much time and resources WG would like to put into these old ships. 

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19 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Well despite beeing powercrept a bit Belfi is still strong and would work at t8-10 bracket (well as much as any t8 cruiser does) smoke is more of a sidenote nowdays (even for a cruiser) with all the radar and smoke spotting nerfs but still give some advantage, same goes for kutuzov that could do its job as t9 just the same, with current mm you face t8/9 in belfi and t10 in kuzu all the time anyhow

Ha, Kutuzov at T-10 and give it a heal. At T-9 it would not need anything.

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Well Kutuzov couldn’t be the only T9 without heal, reload module and a 2.05 sigma. Uptier away

 

If Belfast is to be moved to tier 8 it should be given it’s heal. As it is in randoms the Fiji is probably better.

 

I still think the problem is making the changes not what those changes entail.

 

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Well ofc if kutzu moved to t9 additional slot and heal are mandatory at least 1 charge

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5 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

 

Similarly, could another outcome to the whole issue simply be a change to MM wherein OP ships are simply levelled through MM? Example being the Julie might stay at 5 but be MM'd at 6, Belfast only ever see's T7 and 8 but not T6 ships?

 

Thoughts*?

 

 

Special mm is highly unlikely. They had that in WoT for years and even removed it.

 

I think uptiering is the way to go. Kami and Fujin f.e. wouldnt need a single change, their torpedoes are just ludicrously strong. In fact you could make them work at T10 even in their current state. There are few ships who care so little about being uptiered.

 

Belfast just needs a slight compensation at T8 imho. Put another 2km of range on the guns maybe. Or give her a single charge of heal (3 with prem+ inspector, gimmicks ftw). More would make her a T8,5: Problem not solved.

 

 

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6 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Been thinking about the Belfast and Fujin/Kami R in the context of assuming that Julie Chez get's up tiered or if not up tiered actually nerfed [because, let's face it, something IS going to change]

 

If Chez stays as she is, there's a compelling argument that other OP ships previously withdrawn should be made available again for equality's sake. It's not acceptable to leave an OP Musso-boat kicking around whilst denying access to other ships with similarly advantageous characteristics.

 

If she's up-tiered can we expect to see the other ships assessed in the same way and made available again? Does Belfast work at 8? Do the Kami and Fujin work at 6?

 

Similarly, could another outcome to the whole issue simply be a change to MM wherein OP ships are simply levelled through MM? Example being the Julie might stay at 5 but be MM'd at 6, Belfast only ever see's T7 and 8 but not T6 ships?

 

Thoughts*?

 

 

*or tirades for those who cannae help themselves

Belfast is OP? Nah WG calls it balanss. If you suggested to give her torps and heal because she is weak, they could actually think about it. But calling her OP? For that they need more data. 

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Belfast certainly was OP because she could generally out fight what she could out spot... not so much, any more with ships like Fiji and their hydro. I quite often smoked-up Belfasts being given the charge, with inevitable results for a cruiser without torpedoes. 

 

Kamikaze et al can be countered by fast destroyers like Podvoisky which outrun and outgun her, so we need more of those counter ships rather than nerfs. Gremy is more difficult to balance because of her heavier gun armament... I'd be looking at tweaking her concealment as being easy to spot is a feature of the Russian/Soviet gunboat line.  GC, though, doesn't have a hard counter, either tactically or in ship lines.

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6 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Thoughts*?

Belfast and Kami and all other OP ships will be just fine and stay as they are.

WG's motivation behind GC nerf/change is to have enough italian premium ships in store once italians get their tech tree line, that's all there is to it.

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3 hours ago, That_Other_Nid said:

 

Belfast to T-8 would be a good move, it's sister is Edinburgh after all. Update the radar and plating to T-8 and leave everything else alone. 

Alternatively, remove the T8 module slot and radar and leave her at t7.

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She would be ponintless then having he shells doesnt compensate for lack of torps in that case, besides with the CE nerf her radar is not quite what it was anymore either

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19 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Alternatively, remove the T8 module slot and radar and leave her at t7.

Nah, she is singlehandedly stopping T-7 from being used for rank or clan. Shift her to T-8 with some buffs and she will fit right in.

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45 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

Alternatively, remove the T8 module slot and radar and leave her at t7.

just remove any of her consumables. smoke radar or hydro doesnt really matter which one. 

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If you only look at average damage, and compare it with the next best ship) the Belfast is far form the problem that the Cesare is.

 

Cesare av damage 54.931 to the next BB the Oktyobrskava av damage 45.842. And the best silver ship Iron duke av. dam. 39.415. That's more than a 15.0000 difference 

 

For the Belfast the Av. dam.45.039 (which is still much lower than the Flint). The next cruiser is the Boise with 44.299. Not even a 1.000 difference 

 

Does it tell everything? No. But it at least shows the scale of the problem with Cesare and Belfast;

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I can't work out which suggestions are troll answers and which serious :/

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21 minutes ago, Milckenbom said:

If you only look at average damage, and compare it with the next best ship) the Belfast is far form the problem that the Cesare is.

 

Cesare av damage 54.931 to the next BB the Oktyobrskava av damage 45.842. And the best silver ship Iron duke av. dam. 39.415. That more than a 15.0000 difference 

 

For the Belfast the Av. dam.45.039 (which is still much lower than the Flint). The next cruiser is the Boise with 44.299. Not even a 1.000 difference 

 

Does it tell everything? No. But it at east shows the scale of the problem with Cesare and Belfast;

Belfast’s strengths are its anti-destroyer skills. 

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1 hour ago, BlackYeti said:

Alternatively, remove the T8 module slot and radar and leave her at t7.

She’d be significantly weaker than the Fiji.

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I wouldn't change a thing on the Belfast. But maybe change the match making for the Belfast.

 

Only 1 Belfast max in each team when lower tiered or equal tiered.

 

When you have a Belfast team-up/squadron they automatically get up-tiered.

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