Update 0.8.1.1

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

7 hours ago, eliastion said:

You are wrong. Mostly on two issues:

1. AA needs to be able to shoot down planes. This is because people want to feel rewarded for having good AA. They want to see these little flying bugs blow up and fall into the sea. They want the ribbons. Planes that tend to survive but then take more time to be ready just don't provide this satisfaction. If you have good AA, attacking you should mean planes dropping from the sky. Even now people are occasionally frustrating about the perceived lack of risk/sacrifices made by CVs to attack things - can you imagine how frustrating it would be for the surface ships if planes just wouldn't be dying when attacking things that aren't complete AA monsters?

As far as I'm concerned you are wrong on how effective AA 'feels'. Every time I see the plane damage counter go up it's means nothing to me other then preventing a followup wave on that individual squad.  All non lethal damage is 100% insta repaired when the planes return to the fight deck, so it has no impact on my fight with the CV other then the current wave. I feel cheated out of damage I did. That is what is frustrating me.

This would be very different if i knew damaged planes would take time or a consumable to repair when these planes get back to the flight deck. It would mean more then just denying a 2nd or 3rd attack run, it would have an impact on the round as a whole. Currently only plane kills do that, which is why nobody gives a damn about plane damage and the only focus is on kills. It has no depth, which is my main gripe with the system.

[zmeul]

the audio dumshittery when attack planes dive - NOT FIXED - the huge spike in audio level is still present

[MrConway]

On 3/5/2019 at 2:09 PM, Cambera_1 said:

Not impressed by reducing the effectiveness of turning AA off for Cruisers.

This means that it now becomes impossible to set an AA trap. It reduces the skill and interaction of players between Surface Ship players and CV Players.

In all other classes it is possible to set an ambush. This takes skill and planning.

Sorry to be saying this, because the other balancing changes seem fair .

 

 

 

Turning AA off will still be effective and CVs will still stray into your AA zone and take some damage. But the situation before this change where when you accidentally discovered a Minotaur or Worcester they just wiped your squadron was a bit silly.

 

22 hours ago, Cambera_1 said:

@eliastionI agree with much of what of what you said (Especially about AA DDs), but this fix doesn't just address the AA Cruisers, it is a Global nerf. It increases the detection range on all cruisers.

 

 

 

It is in fact not a global nerf.  We just did a global buff for all ships for air detection range that had unintended consequences. Now there is a simple rule in place that you cannot have AA that shoots further than your maximum possible visibility.

 

And again, as with most of the changes we are making this was based on major community feedback about just this issue.

 

19 hours ago, Schneekristall said:

"For all classes of ships, except destroyers, visibility from the air now cannot be less than the range of the ship’s air defenses. This will prevent cases where a squadron comes within range of a ship with its air defense switched off with the ‘P’ key, after which the ship activates anti-aircraft weapons and causes serious and sudden damage to the aircraft. "

 

Hopefully this no surprise policy will also be used for surface detection? Like for Shimas: Those evil boats just sneak in, throw their torps and boom they cause serious and sudden damage to your battleship. And unlike CV you can't just turn on a dime and boost out of the way, neither just launch the next squadron. You just die horrible and helpless. So range=detection for all ships - 20km visibility on Shima now, it's only fair!

 

I can't even.

 

18 hours ago, Lord_of_the_Noobies said:

interesting... looks like they nerfed CVs so hard last time, even they see, it was a little to much, to hard... jeez, i wonder, why they always pull out the sledgehammer, instead of tweaking numbers with a little more, ... sensitivity... maybe? but it never was their thing... always use a ROCK on the HEAD, instead of more subtile ways...

 

 

And honestly, in my opinion this is fine. We said from the beginning we would be making adjustments, sometimes they need to be drastic to make sure you can find a good middle point.

 

When you have a live game like World of Warships with a powerful and influential class like CVs, I would rather see them being a bit too weak for a while, rather than being frustrating to all other players for longer.

[janneman77]

i played this morning  with shokaku and  hakuru it is still a struggle

 

shokaku

you can do little against DDs (since the missile nerf)

I get the dive bombers working now and then, and only on battleships

with the torpedo planes from shokaku I can do something again,  but this is not enough to play the ship often.

 

hakuru i have not played much yet, 

missiles and bombers have the same problem as the shokaku

you leave with a large group of aircraft at the same time,  but most are food for AA

I can not get a button to attack with fewer aircraft? or should I continue to throw bombs into the sea.

 

torpedo planes  

again large group of aircraft, but lonly two torpedoes at once. why?

so i  used some freexp to be able to buy one of the other aircraft options

because I can  drop four torpedoes with that, but this was also a disappointment

 

it was frustrating to play with, 

 

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, janneman77 said:

torpedo planes  

again large group of aircraft, but lonly two torpedoes at once. why?

so i  used some freexp to be able to buy one of the other aircraft options

because I can  drop four torpedoes with that, but this was also a disappointment

Guess the point is to find a single BB or a BB without good AA cover from other ships. I managed to get all drops out at a BB and if there is a second ship, the heal helps out there.

Before Rework the CV could drop all bombs and torps at once, but that didn't mean, that the CV moved into heavy AA cover :D

[Pikkozoikum]

20 hours ago, Schneekristall said:

"For all classes of ships, except destroyers, visibility from the air now cannot be less than the range of the ship’s air defenses. This will prevent cases where a squadron comes within range of a ship with its air defense switched off with the ‘P’ key, after which the ship activates anti-aircraft weapons and causes serious and sudden damage to the aircraft. "

 

Hopefully this no surprise policy will also be used for surface detection? Like for Shimas: Those evil boats just sneak in, throw their torps and boom they cause serious and sudden damage to your battleship. And unlike CV you can't just turn on a dime and boost out of the way, neither just launch the next squadron. You just die horrible and helpless. So range=detection for all ships - 20km visibility on Shima now, it's only fair!

Yes, nerf Shima, way to op that ship!

 

 

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

All non lethal damage is 100% insta repaired when the planes return to the fight deck

Yes, planes should be insta repaired after leaving the AA area like in pre-rework!

[battle_ensign]

Mr Conway,

 

Some time ago you said on live stream, that crashing out and going pink was always the fault of the player. This total BS on your part because it only ever happens on patch day for me and only as a game starts. Just now I went pink for the second time in 4 years as a live update check from WG crashed my game and I'm not at all happy.

Will you please aknowledge it is your crap coding just as much as as the players fault. As i'm typing this the game crashed again where yesterday and the five days before it was stable.

 

 

 

[MixuS]

Dingdingding sound is now ok, although personally I would prefer still a little softer sound. Planes however are as loud as ever, probably before hotfix too, but atleast they are now. Attacking planes seem to have their volume constantly at 150% if they are at range for you to hear them in at all.

[StalkerSoC]

Nice meme, I think I'am really going to sell Enterprise soon, I get sucked EVERY GAME in T10, what can I do when I end up in a game like that ?

 

Spoiler

 

Oh yeah, basically losing a 100 planes only to do 21K damage.

 

Spoiler

 

It's disgusting, a 50e ship, known to be a very good carrier, not being able to do anything, it's frustrating and uninteresting. If I buy a ship, it's to have fun, playing that isn't fun at all. You can avoid flak burst, but the continuous DPS is so strong that you can't do anything. Torpedo bombers, when you approach you get shat on by Flak burst or you have to maneuver like a monkey so it's impossible to get torpedo hit correctly, bombers, by the time I am going to dive I've lost 7 of my planes, and rockets are useless atm.

[Cambera_1]

Thank you @MrConway for your response to two of my points, but I don't think that you got my argument.

13 minutes ago, MrConway said:

Turning AA off will still be effective and CVs will still stray into your AA zone and take some damage. But the situation before this change where when you accidentally discovered a Minotaur or Worcester they just wiped your squadron was a bit silly.

Yes, you are right, because turning off AA means that you are not shooting at a squadron now. Yet as the Air Spotting Range cannot be smaller than the AA range, there is now no point in turning it off. You have removed the benefit of turning it off, which was not having your AA reveal your position. The planes have spotted you. You have just de-skilled AA by removing the perfectly legitimate tactic of not revealing your position, "they are in range of your guns, therefore you are spotted." If this argument was applied to main guns and surface detection, you would be spotted as soon as they enter the range of your guns.

 

I acknowledge there was a problem of many high tier cruiser/BB AA, and it wasn't fun for a CV player to loose everything quickly. Now they don't have to think as they will be able to turn and run the moment they trigger their AA. Before there was a need to pay attention because there MIGHT be a ship that can do me damage. This is the same as a Destroyer has to think if there MIGHT be a gunboat around the corner of an island to delete them.

 

Surely the problem of "accidentally discovered a Minotaur or Worcester" should have been addressed by changing the Minotaur or Worcester's stats to make less of difference between their detection range and AA range.

As I can state, from both sides of the encounter, when a DD "accidentally discovered a Minotaur" it normally doesn't end well for the DD.

27 minutes ago, MrConway said:

It is in fact not a global nerf.  We just did a global buff for all ships for air detection range that had unintended consequences. Now there is a simple rule in place that you cannot have AA that shoots further than your maximum possible visibility.

It is a global nerf to deal with a particular problem. I get it that it sort of reverses the previous buff, but it is still a global nerf. 
 

A better "global" fix if you don't want at this stage in fixing individual ship stats is to prevent T8 Carriers from seeing T10 Cruisers. That seems to be where much of the problem is. T8 planes melting in T10 AA.

 

This global nerf seriously affects the weaker cruisers that NEED to be able to stay undetected because their "armour" is being undetected. This applies to most of the RN line, (including the Minotaur,) to the Atlanta.

The thing is that as soon as a plane spots a cruiser (or anything else) then the whole team knows about it and can shoot it. This seems to be the fact that is being forgotten in this buffing and nerfing cycle. Changes affecting Surface/Aircraft interactions also affect Surface/Surface interactions.

 

As an illustration take USS Atlanta.

Under the previous RTS CVs my Atlanta had an Anti Air Umbrella that FAR exceeded the Air Spotting Range, it was big enough for "Fleet Defence". Under the new CV model, the benefits of AFT disappeared, the benefits of the AA Upgrade disappeared and I was left with an Atlanta that could not do "Fleet Defence", in fact it struggled to defend a ship 2 km away.

Then came the rebalancing between "Continuous Damage and Explosion Damage", this removed the new benefits of AFT & the new benefits of the AA Upgrade. I can't see how Continuous Damage can be justified with real world physics. Sorry.

Yes the "new" Atlanta can do damage to T6 aircraft and but against T8 aircraft?

My last outing with the Atlanta, if I remember it well, was, I see aircraft, Sector Enhancement on the correct side, I turn on AA Guns by activating Defensive Fire, I down a couple of aircraft and get deleted by a surface ship. Yes, I was incorrectly positioned as I hadn't had time to get to cover. Yes the planes are quicker now. Yes I chose to turn on the guns. But I have invested time and effort equipping an Atlanta to be good at knocking planes down.

The thing is that everyone, well just about everyone, knows that against surface CAs and BBs the Atlanta melts. DDs know this too and ask their team mates to delete Atlanta's (and Belfasts) on sight.

Getting Spotted in an Atlanta means a return to port.

For those that don't know the 

 

The things is that certain ships, such as Atlanta, do certain things well, they are known for it. Surely a good CV skipper will see an Atlanta (or whatever) on the red team list and think, 'where would I expect an Atlanta to be on this map." I know that is what I do when I see the Red Team list when sailing a DD.

 

I am not arguing for a special case for the Atlanta, if she is part of the problem then nerf her.

But... the Leander & Furutaka those well known "death to all aircraft cruisers"... I ask you … ?

 

I suggest that if this is the route that Wargaming is going to go then you need to allow people with AA cruisers the chance to get their Doubloons, XP and Credits back, you have affected these ships as much as the Carriers.

 

As I argued before in this thread, even if the CV players don't seem to get it, judging from the "bad" reactions, it takes skill to create an ambush, it takes skill to execute the ambush. It takes skill to avoid an ambush.

By definition an ambush is when one side "springs a surprise" on the other side.

 

Get it wrong and it isn't the ambushed that goes to the port but the ambusher. Unless of course it is aircraft that are ambushed, when they just go back to the carrier and regenerate while another squadron is flown.

Of course if the CV ambushes a cruiser by flying around the mountain and dropping high explosive that destroys AA or main guns, that damage exists for the rest of the battle.

 

I know that the balancing goes on, please can a universal view be taken on the changes.

 

AND give the Carriers more hitting power, they do need to be able to damage and sink ships too. Loosing credits as a CV isn't fun, being bottom of the team table despite doing a reasonable job isn't fun. The Continuous Damage from AA isn't fun. Dodging Flak was... and from the other side, not dodging flak was too! (If the Flak bursts were too deadly to squadrons, make the bursts smaller so they could only damage an aircraft or two!)

 

Finally - Please take into account that most players are not Unicums whether they are CV or any other kind of players. Too much of the balancing seems to be around Unicums.

 

Roll on more "Bad" reactions, but I just want to see this game work for EVERYBODY.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

You have removed the benefit of turning it off, which was not having your AA reveal your position. The planes have spotted you.

I'm not sure about this. It looks like, that the AA starts shooting before the detection range. So there could be a benefit of turning off the AA and hit the button right after the planes enter the detection range.

That has different effects:

-No AA clouds will anounce the presence of a ship.

-When entering the detection range, the Squad won't be able to turn easily out, they're flying direction into the AA

-There is also a reaction time of a player, so he will fly even deeper into the aa-cruiser

[Cambera_1]

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm not sure about this. It looks like, that the AA starts shooting before the detection range. So there could be a benefit of turning off the AA and hit the button right after the planes enter the detection range.

That has different effects:

-No AA clouds will anounce the presence of a ship.

-When entering the detection range, the Squad won't be able to turn easily out, they're flying direction into the AA

-There is also a reaction time of a player, so he will fly even deeper into the aa-cruiser

The thing is if they are already inside your AA Aura when you turn it on, it is even harder for an escape, that is why it is an Ambush.

 

Think, if you are in your Asashio, would you fire your torps at a BB that was at maximum range and heading in your direction, or would you wait until it was much closer and you could just about guarantee a hit or two? And then follow it up with your "Torpedo Reload Boaster" so you could get another strike at the BB before it was unlikely to be hit by your torps?

It is the same, if the BB could see you at the maximum range of your torps, it would either turn and stay outside range or delete you with a nice salvo, probably both. This is what I am talking about except it has a squadron of planes as the target, that will completely regenerate, instead of going back to port.

[_Dunc_]

20 minutes ago, Cambera_1 said:

/Snip/ Atlanta stuff.

 

I've had this too - stopped playing the Atlanta entirely after an VIII CV devoted four consecutive strikes on me without losing a single plane, despite running full AA build and having Def AA running.

 

Meanwhile, the DoY with its half hearted AA upgrade over the KGV is a floating flak palace that neither VI not VIII CVs can get within 5km of.

 

 

[Blondito]

Sadly the Haku is as useless as ever. The 2 torp drop is the only viable choice if you hope to get at least 1 chance of a strike in. The rockets are still utterly pathetic if a DD even sneezes at an WASD key. As for dive bombers well lol why bother unless target is afk or not paying attention. Haku is still stuck with scout until planes gone then hope you find 1 ship alone. I hope the other lower tier CV's are better for those grinding them. Such a costly game to play CV now. Although it is funny when on an attack run  the flak bursts block out the target and when u get clear they are way behind you and you have to start run again(if planes left) only to lose sight of target in next flak burst :D.  So much work needed and so much pain felt playing to get WG some stats.

[Cambera_1]

9 minutes ago, Blondito said:

The rockets are still utterly pathetic if a DD even sneezes at an WASD key.

Yes Rockets need to be slightly easier to use against DDs and do more damage. A pair of perfect strikes needs to be able to delete a DD for that tier, so that a fresh squadron isn't needed after perfect strikes..

[Blondito]

I am afraid if you ever played a CV with these rockets you would understand. They can not and never have been able to "delete" a DD. However they do need to be able to do some damage considering it is so so difficult to get a hit at all.

[NanoXII]

Stop killing the CV in this game you did 7 billion bad things to every CV in game you keep doing worse and worse and worse every single "fix" let me tell you something the CV's in this game are useless now just remove them and stop protecting the destroyer players it's nobody's fault the destroyer is a 1 hit kill ship ... stop nerfing the CV's ... I used to do 100K damage in the old system and now in you're ignorant FIXED REWORK i do 30K damage or less in every game every single game in the Midway ... ignorant people you can make 50K damage in a tier 4 destroyer and you can't even get that in a tier 10 ship like midway or haku .... I have a better ideea why not spawn the CV in the middle of the map give just 1 plane in every game and zero posibility to move the CV also when that 1 plane is down no more planes ..... Oooo and i got even a better ideea why not spawn the CV at the start of the game next to the entire enemy team like 2 km away from every enemy battleship cruiser and destroyer that way you can truly fix everything wrong with the CV and everyone will play them ... You managed to get a class of ships in game that was almoust never played and turned it into a class that CAN NOT BE PLAYED !!! Bravo brabo bravo !!! also please give the destroyers nuclear bombs laser guns from the future, also 9 billion torps every 3 seconds and invulnerability and undetectability for the entire duration of the game also give it 1000 km/h speeds for the destroyers and 3500km/s speed for the 9 billion torpedos. That will make the game extremly ballanced and fixed 100%. I hope you read this and thank you ignorant people from Wargaming

[Cambera_1]

10 minutes ago, Blondito said:

I am afraid if you ever played a CV with these rockets you would understand. They can not and never have been able to "delete" a DD. However they do need to be able to do some damage considering it is so so difficult to get a hit at all.

@Blondito I'm being serious.

And yes I was deleted by rockets - 1 strike on day 1 of 0.8.0. That got my attention big time. I was in a Shenyang (T4 Pan Asian DD), virtually full health and then Dev Strike Rockets.

I have used rockets and sunk ships with rockets. I might not be a CV specialist, and I might prefer the RTS CVs, but I get this new model of CVs, and will get used to it too, both being the CV and the Surface Ships.

I want this to work for everyone.

I will say what I like best about this new meta. Nobody expects too much from a CV any more, so the pressure not to let your team down is gone and you can play the game to the best of your ability!

[salvager]

Tried Langley this morning, in Tier IV / V games, and could barely get close to any ships without my aircraft being completely obliterated by flak, even from equal tier DD and CL.  Appears CV's have no chance now of having any impact on a game.

[LOZFFVII]

On 3/5/2019 at 1:33 PM, eliastion said:

planes shouldn't have "sixth sense" where you're informed that your planes got spotted - that last change would mean that even without ridiculously reduced air spotting DDs would be able to avoid detection, because - unlike now - planes wouldn't be equipped with "early warning system" telling them that there's something spotting the planes.

This, in so many ways.

One of the main defences DDs had under the old system was that CVs didn't know if their planes were spotted by unseen enemies. (this coming from someone who didn't like the old system, but enjoys the new one).

On 3/5/2019 at 4:28 PM, affie said:

It is very strange that WG is giving the converging torpedoes to RN when they already gave the gimmick called carpet bombers. Why not give these torpedoes to IJN to further improve their torpedoes and have gimmicks as follows:

 

USN - Tiny Tims

RN - Carpet bombers 

IJN - Converging torpedoes

I'd actually enjoy that, and not just because I'm grinding the IJN line, but also because I intend to grind the RN line and I feel like they have a few too many gimmicks all in one.

[NanoXII]

The CV right now is useless stop talking about how OP rockets are they are not you can't even aim and the spread is insane if it's not a battle ship you can't hit it and if it's a battle ship all you're planes magicly dissapear before you even get close to it don't even start on cruisers extremly OP AA i hope destroyers will suffer even more they ruin the game they dominate this game since day 1 that has to change nerf destroyers let them bleed they deserve it

[anonym_qJ2ys6RN5PbU]

 Just re-bough my Hakuryu to test the changes, and yeah, she still suck badly. I played with 2 torpedo bombers before 1st "hotfix", at the moment ist not even a shadow of the fun it was before the 1st nerf, and it was not overpowered, why it was nerfed is beyond my understanding.

 

The bad thing is I had to pay to re-train my commander from Hashidate to Hakuryu and if I decide to sell the ship now will not get FreeXP, only Hashidate XP, well done WG if your wish is to push me convert it to FXP. Money rules the world, arent they?

 

All DD idiots who cant play their ships just go to school please, I do have Khabarovsk and Z52 and both are doing well in "re-work", off course you have to use half of your brain, while the other half is used to scratch balls.

[Han951753]

even though it is far not enough, it is still a good start bringing back some CV plays specially Jap Carriers. They were truely over nerfed in patch 0803. 

[zordage]

If other classes battleships cruiser or a destroyer had to play with the same handicap the carriers have there where no one playing this game.

Hope you get this in to a playable state. 

 

Small tip of advice for you start to think of the role you prefer to have the carriers play the current state is annoying your player base and that can not be good for business.

[Griva]

@MrConway I checked in game Hakuryu and there is no +2 planes but +4 (26 in total) and the heal is the same 180s cooldown and 3 charges.

Is that intended?

 

And btw Haku is still weak but at least playable now.