Liquidator achievement - does it need a change?

[ForlornSailor]

Heyho fellow Forumites!

 

For the past days Ive been thinking about the changed flooding mechanics. And I want to bring the attention to the following achievement:

 

 

Ill put the background info about flooding, DCP and things in the spoiler:

 

Spoiler

First of all, lets bring up how Flooding works after the change. The news article can be found here: https://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/game-updates/flooding-and-radar-changes/

The important part is here:

Interesting in that sense is to keep DCP cooldown in mind aswell, all infos can be found here: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Damage_Control_Party_Data

 

 

Since we can have 2 floodings now at the same time, we can calculate what is the maximum possible damage, we can cause with one flooding.

For a BB this is (2 floods x 0,5% of HP x 40 sec). That equals exactly the 40% needed for the achievement. So you need to catch a BB, that has atleast 40 sec to his next DCP and cause 2 floodings. Or you catch the same BB twice. Before, the formula looked like this: ( 1 flood x 0,667% of HP x up to 90 sec). Thats a theoretical maximum of 60,03% of health lost by one flooding. So you needed ~ 60 sec of one flood to reach the 40% damage needed to make the achievement possible.

Needless to say: you can forget to achieve Liquidator on a russian BB, unless he has used up all his DCP, but in such a case: how likely is it, that such a ship still has enough health to flood for 40% of his health.

 

For a Cruiser, getting the achievement, is now impossible in practice. Lets calculate, when we would reach 40% of ships damage. One flooding will cause the following (theoretical again, since the cruiser may not have DCP ready at any point during the flooding): 1 x 0,25 x 40 = 10% of health. So we need 4 floodings, on seperate occasions (or 2 on 2 occasions), all of those 2/4 times the Cruiser may not have DCP ready and he must not die from the flooding early (since you wont reach the 40% damage then). This is impossible, since the torpedo damage itself from the minimum of 4 torpedo hits would kill the Cruiser, even one equipped with a heal. (unless you get super lucky with damage saturation, but then again: such a cruiser would have been damaged from something else, so you wont be able to reach 40% damage with flooding). Before the flooding change, the same formula, that applied to BBs, counted for Cruisers aswell. 1 torpedo hit = 60 sec flooding = 40% damage. Which was rare, yes, but unlike now atleast possible.

 

Unless I miss something: Did WG forget to take the recent flooding changes into account for the Liquidator achievment? In what way should Liquidator be changed? IMO - it needs to be easier to achieve. Maybe 20% would do it. Opinions?

 

 

 

[80yearoldpotato]

+1

you hit the nail on the head here.

20% might be a good starting point. Might be that they need to rework the whole achievment.

[Flavio1997]

The real proboem is that a flooding doesn't  do enough  damage, if you keep the damage the same, but double the spots of flooding (4 spots like fire) then we can start talking again. Right now a flooding deals the same damage as a fire ( well, 10% more damage)

[Ze_Reckless]

A BB with Basics of Survivability, Damage Control Party Mod 2 and Juliet Yankee Bissotwo signal laughs about 20-something seconds of flooding.

[DFens_666]

41 minutes ago, Flavio1997 said:

The real proboem is that a flooding doesn't  do enough  damage, if you keep the damage the same, but double the spots of flooding (4 spots like fire) then we can start talking again. Right now a flooding deals the same damage as a fire ( well, 10% more damage)

 

Basicly every Cruiser will die to 4 torp hits. (lets exclude some low damage torps like Sims f.e.) And then you cant deal enough floding damage regardless AND he needs to have DCP on CD.

 

24 minutes ago, Ze_Reckless said:

A BB with Basics of Survivability, Damage Control Party Mod 2 and Juliet Yankee Bissotwo signal laughs about 20-something seconds of flooding.

 

You just strengthened his positions, because that makes it even less likely to get a Liquidator. The BB would die to sheer alpha damage from Torps, since Floodings can be ignored under certain circumstances. And there are usually more than one DD shooting that target anway

[Excavatus]

my legendary module hindi looks at this,

and looks at its 10.8 seconds flood time,

looks for the damage reduction..

 

and giggles... :)

[Ze_Reckless]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

You just strengthened his positions

Yes, I did. This buff to BBs is questionable and the Liquidator achievement is a thing from the past now. BBs can push easier now but who am I kidding? 

[DFens_666]

Just now, Ze_Reckless said:

Yes, I did. This buff to BBs is questionable and the Liquidator achievement is a thing from the past now. BBs can push easier now but who am I kidding? 

 

Ok, nvm then... i wasnt sure which way you were going with your post Could have meant both^^

I myself have had a flood on Musashi which i didnt repair because of the fear of getting more floods/Fires at that point.

[ForlornSailor]

1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

my legendary module hindi looks at this,

and looks at its 10.8 seconds flood time,

looks for the damage reduction.. 

 

2 hours ago, Ze_Reckless said:

A BB with Basics of Survivability, Damage Control Party Mod 2 and Juliet Yankee Bissotwo signal laughs about 20-something seconds of flooding.

 

Yes, I had those two things in mind when gathering the infos for the OP. But I didnt want to make it overly complicated. But those are even more reasons, why Liquidator is almost impossible to get now. Whats WG thinking about this anyway? @MrConway? Will the achievement be corrected as in made easier or totaly reworked?

[loppantorkel]

I think they need to address the effectiveness of flooding before changing factors surrounding the flooding mechanic, such as reward flags.

 

Increasing the flood chance might be a start.

 

 

Edit: The opening post does highlight that the flooding mechanic might need some tweaks though. It seems a bit on the weak side. Maybe less serious/game-ending floods, but make it more frequent and less serious. On the whole I don't think the overall flood damage needed a nerf.

[ForlornSailor]

32 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

I think they need to address the effectiveness of flooding before changing factors surrounding the flooding mechanic, such as reward flags.

 

Increasing the flood chance might be a start.

 

Yup the flooding chance should be raised and adressed seperatly. But this wont make you get Liquidator any easier, if you think about it. Like the math for the cruisers wont change at all, with the small exception of CVs, since their alpha could be that low, that they actually could farm it. And as a DD harvesting a BB for a Liquidator... the torpedo reload comes into play aswell as the alpha strike. So realisticly you´d need atleast 3 floods on 2 occasions, both of the times the DCP needs to be on cooldown and you still need the 40% BB Health to farm, so nobody else can deal that much damage inbetween. Will be really hard. Maybe in the endgame if a DD combos with a CV, no other HE-spammer or BB is around, and the BB uses his DCP against the DoT of the CV, yes.

[loppantorkel]

13 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Yup the flooding chance should be raised and adressed seperatly. But this wont make you get Liquidator any easier, if you think about it. Like the math for the cruisers wont change at all, with the small exception of CVs, since their alpha could be that low, that they actually could farm it. And as a DD harvesting a BB for a Liquidator... the torpedo reload comes into play aswell as the alpha strike. So realisticly you´d need atleast 3 floods on 2 occasions, both of the times the DCP needs to be on cooldown and you still need the 40% BB Health to farm, so nobody else can deal that much damage inbetween. Will be really hard. Maybe in the endgame if a DD combos with a CV, no other HE-spammer or BB is around, and the BB uses his DCP against the DoT of the CV, yes.

Liquidator was pretty tough before, so I think your suggestion of changing it and lowering the threshold is valid, but I suspect WG doesn't want flood damage to lower much from before, just make unlucky floods be less game ending. It's about lowering the frustration, just like they removed full health detonations. Maybe they need to change the achievement to cover more ships, but less damage, similar to the High Calibre and ...the other one.. Confederate...(?)

 

My guess is that WG will look at these achievements when they have more data and after some balancing of the actual flood mechanic - the chance/frequency/damage. It seems too early to change the liquidator achievement. As for right now, I agree that the achievement is too tough to get.

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

Increasing the flood chance might be a start.

This is only really the case for plane-dropped torps plus maaaybe some of the low flooding chance DDs... but the lines that really rely on torpedoes (IJN and PA with their deep water torps) cause flooding on almost every torp, even landing a hit on the torpedo belt. They won't gain a thing from increased flooding chance. And I somehow don't see WG improving IJN torp reload or concealment significantly or, say, increasing the alpha of deep water torps. Torp-focused DDs just got screwed over (even if technically the flooding damage might appear to increase as full hp BBs will just ignore floodings like they do single fires) with no compensation (not as screwed as the CVs but carriers are still pretty much work in progress and they actually COULD get a simple flooding chance increase to compensate).

[loppantorkel]

1 hour ago, eliastion said:

This is only really the case for plane-dropped torps plus maaaybe some of the low flooding chance DDs... but the lines that really rely on torpedoes (IJN and PA with their deep water torps) cause flooding on almost every torp, even landing a hit on the torpedo belt. They won't gain a thing from increased flooding chance. And I somehow don't see WG improving IJN torp reload or concealment significantly or, say, increasing the alpha of deep water torps. Torp-focused DDs just got screwed over (even if technically the flooding damage might appear to increase as full hp BBs will just ignore floodings like they do single fires) with no compensation (not as screwed as the CVs but carriers are still pretty much work in progress and they actually COULD get a simple flooding chance increase to compensate).

Yes, probably. Maybe WG is going to differentiate dd (and upcoming sub-) torps a bit more. High alpha or high flood chance and DoT. Flooding was too all or nothing before the change. Now, with some tweaks, it may become something more akin to the fire damage. The annoyingly difficult to avoid deep water torps would be more DoT focused, while normal IJN torps would rely on even higher alpha damage, but lower flood chance.

[eliastion]

19 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Yes, probably. Maybe WG is going to differentiate dd (and upcoming sub-) torps a bit more. High alpha or high flood chance and DoT. Flooding was too all or nothing before the change. Now, with some tweaks, it may become something more akin to the fire damage. The annoyingly difficult to avoid deep water torps would be more DoT focused, while normal IJN torps would rely on even higher alpha damage, but lower flood chance.

Flooding - and DoT in general, flooding was just the more obvious case - is still too "all or nothing". You can't cause it when DCP is working and DCP cuts it off instantly, potentially denying you even a single tick of damage. What we needed wasn't a nerf to flooding - it was a rework of DCP so that it would cut the duration of remaining/incoming DoT sources down to a fraction of what they would normally deal. THEN you could actually nerf the flooding (even so, no to the extent it was nerfed) under the assumption that even an instantly repaired flooding (or one inflicted with DCP active) would still be dealing a couple ticks of damage. This would also make it so that:

 - the -fire/flooding time effects would be potentially valuable even for instantly DConned effects since that could save you a tick of damage in some cases

 - being the first one to inflict fire(s) or flooding(s) that cause the enemy to use DCP would be rewarded (even if just a little) with damage, even if someone else then reaps the real benefits by inflicting subsequent DoT sources

 

Instead we're getting a huge flooding nerf and a promise that now we'll deal more flooding damage because people are now going to often ignore the DoT ticking

[Themisto97]

 

12 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

Unless I miss something: Did WG forget to take the recent flooding changes into account for the Liquidator achievment? In what way should Liquidator be changed? IMO - it needs to be easier to achieve. Maybe 20% would do it. Opinions?

 

The same can be seen with the Unsinkable achievement. It was and still is even more rarer than the Liquidator. It is really unliky to have so long a flooding  and still be alive to the end of the game. (I have not ernt a single Unsinkable in the last 3 years and 7500 battles).

 

Wows Wiki Unsinkable:

Receive damage from flooding that exceeds 40% of your ship's normal HP, and survive the battle. Can be obtained once per battle.

[eliastion]

30 minutes ago, Themisto97 said:

 

 

The same can be seen with the Unsinkable achievement. It was and still is even more rarer than the Liquidator. It is really unliky to have so long a flooding  and still be alive to the end of the game. (I have not ernt a single Unsinkable in the last 3 years and 7500 battles).

 

Wows Wiki Unsinkable:

Receive damage from flooding that exceeds 40% of your ship's normal HP, and survive the battle. Can be obtained once per battle.

Well, this one could (and probably still can) be "farmed", especially in BBs with heals by ignoring the DoT in a controlled manner. Although now you'd need to ignore 3 of them while in the past just once could be enough. On the other hand, the damage accumulates more slowly so you have more time to heal up in the meantime.

[CoffeeFueledCurmudgeon]

I started 5 floods and several fires on a Wyoming today whilst toying with Hermes. (Apologised at the end to the BB)

 

He survived the match with 2000hp.... every time I set him alight I went in with torps, expected no floods because the chance is now negligible, got a flood and started to think I might get Liquidator, but he just kept pulling through. Flooding wasn't even as effective as fires.

[MrConway]

18 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

 

Yes, I had those two things in mind when gathering the infos for the OP. But I didnt want to make it overly complicated. But those are even more reasons, why Liquidator is almost impossible to get now. Whats WG thinking about this anyway? @MrConway? Will the achievement be corrected as in made easier or totaly reworked?

 

The achievement will certainly be looked at when we have in-depth data about how the flooding rework has affected flooding damage overall.

[Mr_Snoww]

22 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

The achievement will certainly be looked at when we have in-depth data about how the flooding rework has affected flooding damage overall.

The flooding change was completely unesecary anyway. It just panders to battleships who cannot manage their damage control properly and dont look out for torps. The change needs to be reverted as flooding should severely punish people and not just tickle their HP for 40 seconds (around 20 seconds if you have all flooding signals and captain skills). 

[Capra76]

10 minutes ago, Mr_Snoww said:

The flooding change was completely unesecary anyway. It just panzers to battleships who cannot manage their damage control properly and dont look out for torps. The change needs to be reverted as flooding should severely punish people and not just tickle their HP for 40 seconds (around 20 seconds if you have all flooding signals and captain skills). 

 

Arguably it was needed to "!balance" new CV and their rapid cycling drops, which could start perma-floods regardless of how well DCP was managed.

[lup3s]

Wow I totally missed this change in flooding mechanics  (what a scrub )

 

I guess this means no more 1-flood Witherers 

[ForlornSailor]

On 3/6/2019 at 11:17 AM, MrConway said:

The achievement will certainly be looked at when we have in-depth data about how the flooding rework has affected flooding damage overall.

 

How long will this take? Why do we have tasks, that need this achievement still in the game in the meantime? Shouldnt the devs not atleast replace those tasks with something, that is atleast achievable?  

Im sorry, but these constant "we need more data" answers dont cut it in the long run. How much data does your dev-team need, to see, that you cant achieve these tasks/achievements atm?

 

[IanH755]

On 3/6/2019 at 12:17 PM, MrConway said:

 

The achievement will certainly be looked at when we have in-depth data about how the flooding rework has affected flooding damage overall.

 

So WG have completely changed the flooding mechanic and people will just have to wait until WG graciously decide to look at the achievement they need for Missions/Campaigns?

 

Considering you can buy Juliet Whiskey Unaone signals from the Armoury/Arsenal (meaning the reward for Liquidator is no longer "rare") why the delay to get that all important "in-depth data"? The buyable reward makes getting the achievement worthless for anything other than completing Missions/Campaigns, so if you half the required amount of flooding damage required, everyone wins & everyone's happy, surely?

 

TBH it just another example of a badly thought out mechanic change effecting lots more than only the 1 thing it's aimed at, nothing new there!

[loppantorkel]

30 minutes ago, IanH755 said:

So WG have completely changed the flooding mechanic and people will just have to wait until WG graciously decide to look at the achievement they need for Missions/Campaigns?

 

Considering you can buy Juliet Whiskey Unaone signals from the Armoury/Arsenal (meaning the reward for Liquidator is no longer "rare") why the delay to get that all important "in-depth data"? The buyable reward makes getting the achievement worthless for anything other than completing Missions/Campaigns, so if you half the required amount of flooding damage required, everyone wins & everyone's happy, surely?

 

TBH it just another example of a badly thought out mechanic change effecting lots more than only the 1 thing it's aimed at, nothing new there!

Some achievements will be tough to achieve, some missions will be difficult during a rebalancing process. Is the situation acute? You really need this achievement now?

Too much drama...