CV - MM Tier 6 in Tier 8

[sgtmarple]

For the past two days I noticed that I find myself more and more in Tier 8 Games with my Tier 6 CV. As you can imagine it  is quite hard and depressing to do anything against Tier 8 AA especially in Tier 6 japanese Planes. Kinda frustrated I switched to my Fuso. Suddenly I never enter any Tier 8 Games and another thing, I've never even seen any CVs in my games and I played like 6 or 7 in a row.

 

I think Tier 7 Cvs in Tech Trees are needed. I am a CV main dispite all the hardship but the combination of getting Tier 8 Games and having to grind 170k xp for the Tier 8 , just to get pwned in Tier 10 games is really not  motivating. The only reason I play my CV right now is because I really don't like surface ships and still makes me happy once in awhile to  AP Bomb a Cruiser with two Citadels and harvest their tears in chat...seriously, if you get hit by me in a Cruiser...you suck.

[ForlornSailor]

1 minute ago, sgtmarple said:

For the past two days I noticed that I find myself more and more in Tier 8 Games with my Tier 6 CV. As you can imagine it  is quite hard and depressing to do anything against Tier 8 AA especially in Tier 6 japanese Planes. Kinda frustrated I switched to my Fuso. Suddenly I never enter any Tier 8 Games and another thing, I've never even seen any CVs in my games and I played like 6 or 7 in a row.

 

Thats simple mathemathics and you will find the answer, if you check, how many BBs (CL/CA/DD) and CVs are played on the Tiers between 6 and 8.

 

 

[Flavio1997]

the fact is that noone is playing tier 10 cvs, so tier 8 and 6 get dumped against +2 mm all the time

[who_dares_wins]

Funny, I was just in a Cossack game where the enemy Ranger did 10k damage to me in two bomb strikes. I dodged and weaved like mad, and still lost over half my health to what turned out to be a rather inept CV player due to RNG. The reason AA kills so many planes is because of the absurd damage capacity of a CV from complete safety if unimpeded by strong AA. After some testing, I've developed a "trick" to help uptiered CVs manage their planes better. Any plane that won't get its payload in is useless, so just dump some strikes into the ocean and send back planes that you won't actually use in the attack run (before they get shot down). It really lets you slow your losses quite dramatically.

[sgtmarple]

Vor 4 Minuten, who_dares_wins sagte:

Funny, I was just in a Cossack game where the enemy Ranger did 10k damage to me in two bomb strikes. I dodged and weaved like mad, and still lost over half my health to what turned out to be a rather inept CV player due to RNG. The reason AA kills so many planes is because of the absurd damage capacity of a CV from complete safety if unimpeded by strong AA. After some testing, I've developed a "trick" to help uptiered CVs manage their planes better. Any plane that won't get its payload in is useless, so just dump some strikes into the ocean and send back planes that you won't actually use in the attack run (before they get shot down). It really lets you slow your losses quite dramatically.

Oh yeah, that is an old tactic since 8.0.3. I just drop one flight right at the start since the third strike never happends. Depending on how many cruisers are close by I just strike once and send the rest back and switch back and forth between Torp and AP Bombers. Especially in +2 Games I can preserve alot of planes and just limit myself to precision strikes and make those Bombs count...Torps are kinda useless since they never cause flooding, so for me its AP and Citadels and Torps only if AP are flying back.

[Beastofwar]

26 minutes ago, sgtmarple said:

For the past two days I noticed that I find myself more and more in Tier 8 Games with my Tier 6 CV. As you can imagine it  is quite hard and depressing to do anything against Tier 8 AA especially in Tier 6 japanese Planes. Kinda frustrated I switched to my Fuso. Suddenly I never enter any Tier 8 Games and another thing, I've never even seen any CVs in my games and I played like 6 or 7 in a row.

 

I think Tier 7 Cvs in Tech Trees are needed. I am a CV main dispite all the hardship but the combination of getting Tier 8 Games and having to grind 170k xp for the Tier 8 , just to get pwned in Tier 10 games is really not  motivating. The only reason I play my CV right now is because I really don't like surface ships and still makes me happy once in awhile to  AP Bomb a Cruiser with two Citadels and harvest their tears in chat...seriously, if you get hit by me in a Cruiser...you suck.

 

Didn't you notice the CV nerfs work progressively more limiting with climbing tiers ??

 

I noticed it only when i got the T4 UK CV......i suddenly had no delay on firing rockets and the fighters turn on a dime...but are pretty slow to get anywhere, probably balancing DPM out.  I did play T6 a lot in previous week operations. The nerfs can be noticed there but they are still weaker, not really hindering you but just a little. But when you play Tier 8....then the nerfs hit hard. They really work against you in all that you do. I can only guess what it must be at Tier 10.

 

So i am not amazed that first T10 doesnt have enough CV to fill matches so T8 gets thrown in these, and then T8 CV players get fed up with nerfs AND being thrown in +2 matches so only T6 CV are still played where the nerfs are mild and gameplay is still enjoyable. But not when pushed in the place of T8 CV.....

 

If nothing is done CV will disappear althogether exepct for tier IV and V. These can function in +1 matches.

 

 

 

[Yedwy]

I just sold off everything above T6 yesterday and the whole IJN line (kept them reaserched) as I have no more patience for that bull feces with t8 and 10 cvs and especially IJN, i ll keep Furious and Ranger for ops shenanigans (for now) and to be able to grind and try out Implacable (if i don t manage to get it via florins) and that s it for me, might play few more cv games in randoms with t6-es but i am not going up there again unless they fix this nerf fest, its not impossible to play around what they did I just dont want to do that, its not worth the bother

[ClappingLollies]

9 minutes ago, who_dares_wins said:

Funny, I was just in a Cossack game where the enemy Ranger did 10k damage to me in two bomb strikes. I dodged and weaved like mad, and still lost over half my health to what turned out to be a rather inept CV player due to RNG. The reason AA kills so many planes is because of the absurd damage capacity of a CV from complete safety if unimpeded by strong AA. After some testing, I've developed a "trick" to help uptiered CVs manage their planes better. Any plane that won't get its payload in is useless, so just dump some strikes into the ocean and send back planes that you won't actually use in the attack run (before they get shot down). It really lets you slow your losses quite dramatically.

Funny. Because the insane damage you talk about is about the lowest dpm by any class. Granted you can do it from safety to some degree. Planes still take dmg and when you lose alot of planes it takes a long time to get new ones, but absurd damage is a bit of an.... overstatement. (BTW BB's, cruisers and DD's can also deal dmg from safety) Considering a perfect torpedo strike will yield you 8-9k dmg (an avg BB salvo) and most likely 0 floodings. HE DB's can do some dmg to DD's sure, but for the CV to do that he has to first spot you (Which if you turn your AA of is next to impossible), two RNG have to be on he's side, three he has to pray there are no sneaky AA cruisers nearby that will shred the planes and four he have to rely on the target not maneuvering much ( i know you said you maneuvered like crazy, but ive dropped countless DD's with DB's and its not as easy as you make it out to be). 

 

At this point it seems like noone wants CV's to be able to do dmg to them. CV's can't do any reliable dot dmg anymore and alpha strike is pretty darn shitty. (took me 18 torps and 14 dive bombers to kill a solo NC with my Lexi today. Lost me 26 planes.) Pluss you have 9-12 ish planes in a squadron, but you can hardly get two strikes of it due to the contentious AA DPM.

 

I'm just gonna ask you what should a CV's strike do to a DD? Or should just DD's be immune to CV's as most cruisers are? 

I know players get salty from plane drops, but so do i when i eat random torps in my DD's. Does not mean that torps should be nerfed does it? 

And BTW you do realize the reason most CV players go for DD's these days is simply because they cant reliably go for anything else without losing massive amount of planes? 

WG simply cannot nerf CV's anymore. If they do the rework is completely wasted. And i doubt WG spent all the time and money developing the CV rework just to have it scrapped because some DD players simply cannot adapt. 

 

TL;DR. Git gud. 

[EmilyKing]

they NEED to really set tier 6 CVs to only have a +1 matchmaking tbh

 

[sgtmarple]

Vor 9 Minuten, MortenTardo sagte:

Funny. Because the insane damage you talk about is about the lowest dpm by any class. Granted you can do it from safety to some degree. Planes still take dmg and when you lose alot of planes it takes a long time to get new ones, but absurd damage is a bit of an.... overstatement. (BTW BB's, cruisers and DD's can also deal dmg from safety) Considering a perfect torpedo strike will yield you 8-9k dmg (an avg BB salvo) and most likely 0 floodings. HE DB's can do some dmg to DD's sure, but for the CV to do that he has to first spot you (Which if you turn your AA of is next to impossible), two RNG have to be on he's side, three he has to pray there are no sneaky AA cruisers nearby that will shred the planes and four he have to rely on the target not maneuvering much ( i know you said you maneuvered like crazy, but ive dropped countless DD's with DB's and its not as easy as you make it out to be). 

 

At this point it seems like noone wants CV's to be able to do dmg to them. CV's can't do any reliable dot dmg anymore and alpha strike is pretty darn shitty. (took me 18 torps and 14 dive bombers to kill a solo NC with my Lexi today. Lost me 26 planes.) Pluss you have 9-12 ish planes in a squadron, but you can hardly get two strikes of it due to the contentious AA DPM.

 

I'm just gonna ask you what should a CV's strike do to a DD? Or should just DD's be immune to CV's as most cruisers are? 

I know players get salty from plane drops, but so do i when i eat random torps in my DD's. Does not mean that torps should be nerfed does it? 

And BTW you do realize the reason most CV players go for DD's these days is simply because they cant reliably go for anything else without losing massive amount of planes? 

WG simply cannot nerf CV's anymore. If they do the rework is completely wasted. And i doubt WG spent all the time and money developing the CV rework just to have it scrapped because some DD players simply cannot adapt. 

 

TL;DR. Git gud. 

Lets be serious, I don't even go after DDs anymore, only if I really have to. Especially with the spotting nerf Cruisers are my main enemy. I only spot them the moment their first AA burst hit my planes and if its two together its bye bye planes. I can't be bothered to attack DDs, I just fly at the edge of the map with my AP bombs and attack from behind. Since most DDs and Cruisers yolo forward there is a good chance to find a solo BB to far away from Cruiser AA.

[Arakus]

Hm, normally i am against a limit for +-1 MM, but i think as there are no uneven tier CV are present WG should maybe limit the cv MM to this.

So there would no mix of different tier cv anymore, and T6 cv could work ok in T7 matches and T8 cv would also doing well in T9 matches.

T4 cv have this already and will face T5 ship at maximum.

[conductiv]

the grass sure does look greener from the other side of the fence,

 

I was grinding my T6 BB and I did meet a significant amount of CV's of both tier 6 and 8...so I can't say my BB "never entered a T8 game" (I wish you where right)

 

cruisers getting hit by air attacks...happens all the time...at least with tier 6 and 8 CV's, against tier 6 & 7 cruisers. unless you have a dedicated AA cruiser/DD along with a souped up commander specced for AA, you are not going to stop a strike plane. I have seen cruisers get hit by rockets over and over, and plenty of them got hit by divebombers...the only thing that doesn't seem to hit cruisers reliably is the torpedobomber. you might think every cruiser is a AA specced worcester, however not all of them have a good AA suite

 

from my perspective as a cruiser/DD/BB player, CV's seem to be reliable...they prove hard to dodge and stop but lucky for the combat boats...don't have the ability to instantly delete any ships...but they will pile up a lot of damage over frequent strikes, and the AA casualties a cruiser inflicts don't feel as they have a huge amount of impact on the CV (keep in mind this is how it feels from the cruisers point of view, I can't see if the CV player is slamming his head on his desk because he lost 5 planes).

For DDs that are not AA specced...aircraft prove to be a massive PITA..its not just the rocket planes, its the fact that you have to smoke every time one of those gnats strays too close...lest you get plastered by whatever ships you where currently stalking.

from a BB perspective..well you will have that CV player on your backend for a big portion of the game, now my BB isn't geared for AA...so I'm not exactly suprised it can only knock off like 6 planes over an entire match (this while using the sector system) I'm often basically forced to eat torp because turning to avoid would give a broadside to an enemy BB, and even if there is room to maneuver the mid tier BB's in every case can't really dodge a decent drop.

 

the MM however, isn't drowning in CV players waiting to enter a game...every match will have a good amount of cruisers, generally 4-5 BB's and 2-4 DD's however CV's are the one class that doesn't seem to pop up every single game. and there is a big skill gap between the new CV players and the ones that have experience...much more noticable compared to the difference between a decent and bad BB or cruiser player.

 

personally I think we do need a healthy amount of CV players, so this means that the number actually has to go *gasp* up (at least in the mid-tiers (6&8) no matter how annoying they can be) as I do feel the air game adds another dimension to the game. 

[Besserwisser3000]

It is also super fun to be a T6 ship in a game with a T8 CV.

 

The WG devs are really really smart. And just to make sure, I am being sarcastic.

[Sir_Grzegorz]

Issue with +/-1 MM for CV's will be abuse of it by divisions. But I am for it.

Alternatively WG can make CVs scalable (if you are in +2 MM, your planes have +health, +dmg, +speed), that does not solve issues but should improve CVs games.

[Panocek]

25 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

It is also super fun to be a T6 ship in a game with a T8 CV.

 

The WG devs are really really smart. And just to make sure, I am being sarcastic.

Welcome to "he haz bigger gun, so I want one too" carrot incentive.

 

Whole tiering system came with World of Tanks almost decade ago and proved to be a hit so chances of it going away are... slim.

[Yedwy]

Wont work due to inconsistency

[hgbn_dk]

They have to do something or lose a lot of CV players new or old. Fun factor has been removed completely.

[who_dares_wins]

8 hours ago, MortenTardo said:

Funny. Because the insane damage you talk about is about the lowest dpm by any class. Granted you can do it from safety to some degree. Planes still take dmg and when you lose alot of planes it takes a long time to get new ones, but absurd damage is a bit of an.... overstatement. (BTW BB's, cruisers and DD's can also deal dmg from safety) Considering a perfect torpedo strike will yield you 8-9k dmg (an avg BB salvo) and most likely 0 floodings. HE DB's can do some dmg to DD's sure, but for the CV to do that he has to first spot you (Which if you turn your AA of is next to impossible), two RNG have to be on he's side, three he has to pray there are no sneaky AA cruisers nearby that will shred the planes and four he have to rely on the target not maneuvering much ( i know you said you maneuvered like crazy, but ive dropped countless DD's with DB's and its not as easy as you make it out to be). 

 

At this point it seems like noone wants CV's to be able to do dmg to them. CV's can't do any reliable dot dmg anymore and alpha strike is pretty darn shitty. (took me 18 torps and 14 dive bombers to kill a solo NC with my Lexi today. Lost me 26 planes.) Pluss you have 9-12 ish planes in a squadron, but you can hardly get two strikes of it due to the contentious AA DPM.

 

I'm just gonna ask you what should a CV's strike do to a DD? Or should just DD's be immune to CV's as most cruisers are? 

I know players get salty from plane drops, but so do i when i eat random torps in my DD's. Does not mean that torps should be nerfed does it? 

And BTW you do realize the reason most CV players go for DD's these days is simply because they cant reliably go for anything else without losing massive amount of planes? 

WG simply cannot nerf CV's anymore. If they do the rework is completely wasted. And i doubt WG spent all the time and money developing the CV rework just to have it scrapped because some DD players simply cannot adapt. 

 

TL;DR. Git gud. 

The issue isn't the damage, rather the lack of skill required to do so. If he had done lengthways drops I would have been fine with it, because getting proper lineups on a DD requires skill to predict how they'll turn. However, he just did a sideways drop and could have ended up with being rewarded with a devastating strike for messing up his attack run. I suggest that, instead of nerfing rockets again and again, we should give accuracy bonuses for getting the approach angle correct on a DD and penalties for getting it wrong (we already have a system that can calculate angle ingame and could use that here). This would take more of the RNG out of DD attack runs, as now the damage CVs deal to them varies wildly, and would also give them something to counterplay the CV with. 

 

Also, "most cruisers" are not immune to CVs. The only ones that are are tier IX-X RN and USN CLs. Otherwise they're fair game. You might lose many planes, but with squadron shortening it's rarely a big issue (for me at least, your mileage may vary)

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 50 Minuten, hgbn_dk sagte:

They have to do something or lose a lot of CV players new or old. Fun factor has been removed completely.

 

Ok, then perhaps doing nothing is the best option. CVs are still ruining games left and right. Can`t wait for them to finally remove that overpowered trash class. And with overpowered I mean that their influence on a match is still way too great.

[hgbn_dk]

2 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

 

Ok, then perhaps doing nothing is the best option. CVs are still ruining games left and right. Can`t wait for them to finally remove that overpowered trash class. And with overpowered I mean that their influence on a match is still way too great.

Overpowered?? I have to laugh, every single battle is hard work just to fair well.

[Yedwy]

Yea i line up for strike hit with 8 rockets and do 2k damage with them then half of my squad gets shredded to red by aa while I am turning for another pass just to do another 2k damage and pay for that with 8 planes...

 

Want torps? No problem perfect strike, lined up to arm right before impact both hit - 6k on a 60k bb same story only its questionable if you will even have a chance for a proper second run since if there is a cruiser nearby or bb is +2 your planes just drop out od the sky... 

 

DBs? Same story basicaly and even harder to hit for proper damage since you need to scade the deck to really hit anything and again entire flight gone for 4-6k damage...

 

Overall point is you have these numbers in t6-10 basically per run and in each tier you get something like 2-3 runs in before you are effectively deplaned, before even having the option of striking you shoud teoretically spot but spotting doesnt mean jack if the team blobs up and lemmingtrains on the other side od the map from the enemy, what do I get for losing planes on spoting if noone is shooting the spotted ships?

 

Best part is 5 AA cruisers that spawn on red team are still all alive and over 80% hp 10 min in since nobody gives a damn that you cant do crap with them around and nobody shoots them, but its cvs fault that reds just capped all caps and killed off half of the team, clearly...

 

That damage i can in average do in first 10 minutes of the game with cv I can do with ONE stalingrad salvo, nuff said?

[sgtmarple]

Vor 2 Stunden, who_dares_wins sagte:

The issue isn't the damage, rather the lack of skill required to do so. If he had done lengthways drops I would have been fine with it, because getting proper lineups on a DD requires skill to predict how they'll turn. However, he just did a sideways drop and could have ended up with being rewarded with a devastating strike for messing up his attack run. I suggest that, instead of nerfing rockets again and again, we should give accuracy bonuses for getting the approach angle correct on a DD and penalties for getting it wrong (we already have a system that can calculate angle ingame and could use that here). This would take more of the RNG out of DD attack runs, as now the damage CVs deal to them varies wildly, and would also give them something to counterplay the CV with. 

 

Also, "most cruisers" are not immune to CVs. The only ones that are are tier IX-X RN and USN CLs. Otherwise they're fair game. You might lose many planes, but with squadron shortening it's rarely a big issue (for me at least, your mileage may vary)

The Problem is in three  areas

1.  T6 CV in a Tier 8 game.  There is no limitation on heavy AA Cruisers. Helena, Atlanta and especially Cleveland for example murder every plane before you can run away. Aside from their strong AA you don't see them in time. Cleveland just pops up the second the first burst of AA hits you and that is at least one flight gone. If they are 3-4 AA Cruisers my DMG drops dramatically. 

2. US CVs and JPN CV are not balanced.  US CVs are in a way , way better place than JPN CVs. First the rockets. Because the rocket sight of US Cvs is wider it makes attacks from the side way more effective. JPN CV get a very tight circle but any DD or Cruiser has to move one Pixel and you are lucky to get one Pen.  AP Bombs are horrible. You get alot of Overpen. I even Overpen on a NC which is lol. HE Bombs are way more effective and their fire chance especially with Captain skills is quite good. You don't have a similar Captain Skill for Flood Chance.

3. Torp Flood Chance. This is a real bugger. Right now at least at T6 JPN CV only have their Alpha Damage. With the new Flood changes they haven't touched the flood chances and it is really , really low. The Alpha of Torps is laughable. As I said before out of 50 Torp Strikes I had four floodings. US CVs have their fires, we JPN Cvs already have lower plane HPs, at least give us the same flood chances or close to it .

[ClappingLollies]

3 hours ago, who_dares_wins said:

 

Also, "most cruisers" are not immune to CVs. The only ones that are are tier IX-X RN and USN CLs. Otherwise they're fair game. You might lose many planes, but with squadron shortening it's rarely a big issue (for me at least, your mileage may vary)

Ibuki, Zao, Roon, Hindenburg, Buffalo, Des Moines, Seattle, Wooster, Alaska, Salem, Saint Louise, Henri IV, DM, Moskva, Stalingrad, Neptune and Mino. 

That is just the T9-T10 that will shoot down most of your planes during a strike. There are plenty of T7s and T8s aswell. Just dont have the time to list them now. 

[hgbn_dk]

It becomes even more impossible when you have to grind the upgrade modules, Like the upgraded aircraft and better hull.. Try doing anything in a biplane vs T-VIII AA, I wish you good luck! Every ship is supposed to be balanced enough so you actually can grind these upgrades without having to skip stock modules with free XP.

 

Luckily I'm not personally affected since all my CV's was fully upgraded pre rework, I'm thinking about the new player who just had grind the T-IV, Can't imagine how many new guys will quit even before they reach T-VIII.

[DFens_666]

10 minutes ago, MortenTardo said:

Ibuki, Zao, Roon, Hindenburg, Buffalo, Des Moines, Seattle, Wooster, Alaska, Salem, Saint Louise, Henri IV, DM, Moskva, Stalingrad, Neptune and Mino. 

That is just the T9-T10 that will shoot down most of your planes during a strike. There are plenty of T7s and T8s aswell. Just dont have the time to list them now. 

 

Noone is really immune from what ive seen. Took me 3 mins to get a Cap in Worcester, because the CV just kept coming. And he managed to get strikes through despite reinforced secter and even DefAA! I tried to prevent getting resetted by using defAA against his rockets - didnt work, he got one through. Then he came with AP DBs, which he fucked up but still resetted me. But at this time, i didnt have DefAA available ofc, so it was even easier. Then he tried for a 3rd strike, luckily my Henri came to the cap aswell so we finaly did get the cap.

 

I call utter BS on being Immune to CV strikes. Immunity means: He can never touch you. Truth is, he very well can, and that what @who_dares_wins was saying aswell, he might lose most of his planes.