Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Felixshoen

End of an Era

106 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
89 posts
15,126 battles
17 hours ago, Ilya_Wolf said:

It is true the era of DD being able to sail right around the enemy fleet and torp them in the side/back is gone.

But that does not mean DD cannot do well even in CV games.

 

As someone who has played quite alot in the new midway and considered myself to be a DD main (though im getting more balanced out now) allow me to offer some tips on what not to do anymore in the new meta;

 

If you try to sneak around the sides of the map to get to the cv, you will die horribly, even without RPF captain skill it is quite trivial to figure out when a destroyer is trying to do this, then its just a matter of time until it is found and killed.

 

If you have your AA turned on at the start of the match, you will get a slap to the face, it has been this way long since before the rework happened. [P] is default key to turn it off, use it.

Also a mistake i often see DDs trying to escape planes, they do not pay proper attention to the distance between them and the planes, instead of turning AA back off (and dissapearing temporarily) they leave it on and.. pray?

I can tell you from experience, the DD who never even bothers to turn his AA on is alot harder to strike because you get almost no time to line up the attack run.

 

Speedboosting to the caps in the first couple of minutes is a huge mistake, dont get me wrong, you should head in the right direction, but at a speed similar to the rest of your team!

as long as you are within ~5km of an allied cruiser/battleship you are not a juicy target to a smart cv since it would cost most or all of a squad for a very small amount of damage that may not even land on you...

 

Refusing to use your smoke before you take damage from the planes, really it is wierd how many players wait until i smash them for 1/2 health before they decide to hit that smoke button.

Decide beforehand if you are willing to stop&smoke or not, if you do it in proper time you can avoid being damaged entirely and trust me, no sensible cv player is going to keep hovering above your smoke for 2 minutes.

 

This is not always correct but, for the most part, rockets are just irritating little mosquitos, divebombers are the hornets that gonna make you scream in pain.

Understanding the mechanics of what hunts you is important to properly predict when/if you need to put more effort into avoiding them, a similar learning curve happened when radar cruisers became more common.

 

Hopefully this will help someone, we could use more smart DD players these days!

Can we not have reasoned actionable insights please? The forum is solely for non-evidence based subjective value judgments. Thanks,

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
3,196 posts
3,518 battles

I'm a DD potato, but with the RTS CVs I usually giot killed in one swipe. 

At last now he can't do it and I have a chance, if he's not that good. 

 

Also, I'm NOT able to kill a DD in one swipe myself when I play CV. Need to send multiple squadrons. 

Kinda not handy when a DD tries to attack my CV. He'll usually kill me. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-5D-]
Beta Tester
214 posts
9,328 battles

Must say WG has pandered to anything that hurts its BB players. 

 

The constant nerfs to DD's via (going back a few years) increasing spotting distances of torps, when that wasn't enough they gave BB's the reflexes of a flee, the ability to turn and avoid just spotted torps, then adding radar to new lines, even to a BB (granted it was a premium) but ultimately anything that pushes BB players away was hammered in the typical WG manner.

 

Then WG had a brain fart and released the Asashio, the DD specifically designed to hammer BB's, it is a joy, the BB player sailing in a straight line, not using their WASD hacks gets deleted (quite rightly too). The Asashio is bound to get nerfed at some point, once we allow them to change any premium they are all open to change (as an aside this is why the changes to GC are so critical and causing so much consternation). The recent changes to flooding, so if you do get hit by torps within 30 secs of each other the BB players are still ok. The pandering goes on and on, with the new Russian BB line, they get more accurate at closer ranges, now dont get me wrong I thought that was how dispersion was supposed to be, the closer a target the more chance to hit it, only for Russian BB's it seems.

 

Now with the new radar "balanz", they are trying to help the DD player by increasing the duration AND the range of most radars, you really couldn't make it up (the 6 sec render rule is a joke). When added to the fact that there are multiple radars now, it is entirely possible never to be able to cap without being under perma radar. It is beyond silly how many radar's per game there are now.

 

I feel for the OP, I loved my gunboats, Gearing, Yue Yang, but with all the radar around it is tantamount to suicide playing a gunboat DD in randoms outside of a division, WG don't have a clue how to "balanz", the situation is farcical, but after seeing "that" WG stream with the Head of "balanz" on it and listening to his answers I fully understand why. 

 

So, I have reverted to my Asashio and Shima (and yes I have put the 20km torps on it), I can play safe, 7 games on Sunday, 7 wins, top 2 in all the games, WG are punishing DD's that want to play the objectives, WG simply want to keep their BB players (go cap DD, go go spot for me DD, so I can shoot from 20km away) happy.

 

That said most of my games had 3-4 DD's in them from tier 8 to 10, so not a real decline, but they are playing completely differently, not contesting caps, long range torping, much more passive play.

 

Unfortunately, these forums have little to no impact on WG, we are but a small percentage of the players that come on here, most have never been to the forums, even more have never watched a vid on youtube on how to play, the vast majority don't care. As such WG don't care. Add that to the smug community management team it really is a waste of time.

 

Now with the utter mess the CV rework is in, let's reduce the chance of flooding from plane launched torps as the flooding mechanic is causing a problem, then change the flooding mechanic across the board and not to revert the flooding changes so flooding is now insignificant. I wonder on which spreadsheet in the "balanz" department that information shows on? Remember WG have "all the stats", what a joke, I wouldn't trust WG to run a bath right now.

 

TB.

 

p.s. if they really do mess up my GC we will want our actual money back for it, not another "Russian refund".... it will get messy if you don't.

 

 

  • Cool 2
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HALON]
Players
590 posts
8,951 battles

In the RTS Cv era we used to have less CV around. And when we where in a game with Cv's in it planes where not so omnipresent as they are today.

 

So we got used to the importance of spotting ranges. Gamplay in randoms for non CV classes literally revolved around spotting mechanics, being direct spotting or spotting caused by consumables ( radar, sonar, spotter plane ).

 

The CV rework has literally thrown the spotting mechanic out of the window. And player are angry about that, i guess.

 

It's hard to have THE defining principle of gameplay in wows made irrelevant overnight.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
889 posts
2,506 battles
18 hours ago, Ilya_Wolf said:

It is true the era of DD being able to sail right around the enemy fleet and torp them in the side/back is gone.

But that does not mean DD cannot do well even in CV games.

 

As someone who has played quite alot in the new midway and considered myself to be a DD main (though im getting more balanced out now) allow me to offer some tips on what not to do anymore in the new meta;

 

If you try to sneak around the sides of the map to get to the cv, you will die horribly, even without RPF captain skill it is quite trivial to figure out when a destroyer is trying to do this, then its just a matter of time until it is found and killed.

 

If you have your AA turned on at the start of the match, you will get a slap to the face, it has been this way long since before the rework happened. [P] is default key to turn it off, use it.

Also a mistake i often see DDs trying to escape planes, they do not pay proper attention to the distance between them and the planes, instead of turning AA back off (and dissapearing temporarily) they leave it on and.. pray?

I can tell you from experience, the DD who never even bothers to turn his AA on is alot harder to strike because you get almost no time to line up the attack run.

 

Speedboosting to the caps in the first couple of minutes is a huge mistake, dont get me wrong, you should head in the right direction, but at a speed similar to the rest of your team!

as long as you are within ~5km of an allied cruiser/battleship you are not a juicy target to a smart cv since it would cost most or all of a squad for a very small amount of damage that may not even land on you...

 

Refusing to use your smoke before you take damage from the planes, really it is wierd how many players wait until i smash them for 1/2 health before they decide to hit that smoke button.

Decide beforehand if you are willing to stop&smoke or not, if you do it in proper time you can avoid being damaged entirely and trust me, no sensible cv player is going to keep hovering above your smoke for 2 minutes.

 

This is not always correct but, for the most part, rockets are just irritating little mosquitos, divebombers are the hornets that gonna make you scream in pain.

Understanding the mechanics of what hunts you is important to properly predict when/if you need to put more effort into avoiding them, a similar learning curve happened when radar cruisers became more common.

 

Hopefully this will help someone, we could use more smart DD players these days!

All this boils down to take a Mino or Wooster and you'll be about as effective as a DD in the new meta ...

 

If I keep at 4-5km from nearest AA ship I don't get any damage because I have about the same reach as them with guns and  usually less with torps. Also the moment  I enter cap the CV knows simple because cap is being flipped/captured ... And don't forget Sit. Awareness on planes gives away my presence even if I have AA turned off.

 

CV has all the advantages of knowing where I am in almost all cases....

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
889 posts
2,506 battles
13 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Doesn't seem like WG believes that considering all the recent... changes. :Smile_sceptic:

 

On a more serious note, since I have the opportunity to play on the CN server where RTS CVs still exist I've made some rough comparisons on how fast the two different iterations can wipe all DDs off of the map.

At high tiers reworked CVs become substantially faster at it assuming same tier targets.

Ah finally somebody that knows what he's talking about ... Thank you for backing up with experience what some of us were actually pointing out before rework ... Luckily the CV population will not last long and will drop to lowere than RTS levels ...

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,161 posts
6,041 battles
Am 4.3.2019 um 00:27, Felixshoen sagte:

"Use AA at the right time and sail safely and you will have no issues"  yeah, that didn't take long.  Of course the trolls come out and say it's because i dont have his clan's skill.  Fine. I have no problem saying it's just me.  But, it isn't.  This is why i and others have been playing DD's less.  Also to the graph guy.  Yes i see shimas being played but that graph doesnt show what other DD's are in same game as Shima when it's played.  I'm not playing DD's anymore, which is another way of having no issues with them

If it's not in your ability to play correctly then that doesn't give a reason for the game to improve in your favor. The chess rules aren't changing to the weakest players advantages. Learn how to play.

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
120 posts
7,919 battles
Vor 29 Minuten, Zuihou25 sagte:

If it's not in your ability to play correctly then that doesn't give a reason for the game to improve in your favor. The chess rules aren't changing to the weakest players advantages. Learn how to play.

That chess comparison is off on so many levels:

 

Chess on club or tournament level has meaningful matchmaking (like the strongest players of both clubs play on board 1). This game doesn't.

 

Chess has - via Elo - a reward structure that takes skill level difference into account: beating weak opponents rewards less than beating strong opponents. This game doesn't.

 

WG is a profit seeking entity. WOWS players are customers. Chess players are not. Losing chess players doesn't hurt any bottom line.

 

And the videogame tough guy rhetoric 'learn how to play' doesn't work. Never did. If you don't believe me, this is what Greg Street (lead designer for World of Warcraft, then lead designer for League of Legends) says on the topic:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/340939865858396162

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
17,744 posts
11,751 battles

He is not talking about tournament or league play, just chess.

And yes, weaker ships give less rewards in WoWs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CLADS]
Players
210 posts
4,907 battles
On 3/3/2019 at 11:27 PM, El2aZeR said:

On a more serious note, since I have the opportunity to play on the CN server where RTS CVs still exist I've made some rough comparisons on how fast the two different iterations can wipe all DDs off of the map.

At high tiers reworked CVs become substantially faster at it assuming same tier targets.

I definitely would like to know how that fast wiping out of DDs is supposed to work with Japanese carriers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PARAZ]
Beta Tester
9,967 posts
15,694 battles
4 minutes ago, olmedreca said:

I definitely would like to know how that fast wiping out of DDs is supposed to work with Japanese carriers.

 

It doesn't. When talking about CVs us CV mains have the bad habit to only mean the viable CVs. Should probably clarify that. :Smile_hiding:

E.g. Ranger back in the RTS iteration was never included when talking about how good CVs are at killing DDs either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BLITZ]
Players
2,616 posts
9,875 battles

Don't. Let. Go.

Never give up, it's such a wonderful game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
151 posts
10,897 battles
On 3/3/2019 at 3:25 PM, Ilya_Wolf said:

 

i get so much crap from people going on about how bad i am etc, just say "lets see the scoreboard at the end then" it usually shuts them up.

Being high up on the scoreboard doesnt really mean you are not a bad player though, ranked is a prime example of this! Dont get me wrong, i dont know if you are good or bad, but relying on the scoreboard to tell the full story would be a mistake.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
966 posts
9,785 battles

My two cents, as a veteran DD player, and now CV player.

 

First ships that I target are destroyers, spot them, cause them to smoke up, harass them, remove as much HP as I can from them. If I'm searching for a destroyer but have not spotted it then Wargaming give me a big hint that I'm close by telling me my planes are spotted, so a simple circular search finds him. This is a very bad mechanic that needs to be dropped.

If I'm attacking in my planes, I get a nice warning that a destroyer is close by to the carrier, allowing me to break off my attack (F key), scramble a fresh squadron to find and harass him, whilst my carrier runs away. This is also wrong, and needs to be dropped too. The element of surprise is removed.

 

Next I will spot or target light cruisers, that depend on their concealment for survival. Keep them spotted, let the battleships feast on them. I can then attack when they are low HP, get them to turn broadside on to my teams BBs, or finish them off. With a relentless torrent of planes I can occupy their full attention, away from other threats.

 

They dumbed down the game by giving everyone a warning they are spotted. It used to be selectable captain skill, but the BBs complained. The sad thing is that they continue to dumb it down in an effort to increase the player base. An effort that has failed dismally. Although they have probably reduced the churn of players.

 

As with the O/P some destroyers I just don't play any more. Get spotted, get swatted, lose half your HP in the first 3-5 minutes. Its pointless. Now thay are going to introduce the fantasy napkin navy battleships, that have a strange sort of sigma, bad at long ranges, but obsoletely killer at short ranges. Better It seems from being on the receiving end than any other battleships.

 

So in one fell swoop, they have removed the main threat to these paper ships. CVs to spot, super sigma at close range to swat.

In conclusion: It was once rare to see a match without destroyers, now it is quite common. Where have the gone? To the lower tiers where CVs cannot obliterate you so easily. Keep dumbing it down Wargaming, keep denying you've screwed the pooch, and you'll lose your loyal players too.

  • Cool 4
  • Boring 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
889 posts
2,506 battles
7 hours ago, Akula971 said:

My two cents, as a veteran DD player, and now CV player.

 

First ships that I target are destroyers, spot them, cause them to smoke up, harass them, remove as much HP as I can from them. If I'm searching for a destroyer but have not spotted it then Wargaming give me a big hint that I'm close by telling me my planes are spotted, so a simple circular search finds him. This is a very bad mechanic that needs to be dropped.

If I'm attacking in my planes, I get a nice warning that a destroyer is close by to the carrier, allowing me to break off my attack (F key), scramble a fresh squadron to find and harass him, whilst my carrier runs away. This is also wrong, and needs to be dropped too. The element of surprise is removed.

Pretty much this ... even with AA off the CV knows you are there because of Situational Awareness on planes .... Should be replaced by Priority target, keep SA on CV HULL ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,653 posts
8,649 battles
7 hours ago, Akula971 said:

If I'm attacking in my planes, I get a nice warning that a destroyer is close by to the carrier, allowing me to break off my attack (F key), scramble a fresh squadron to find and harass him, whilst my carrier runs away. This is also wrong, and needs to be dropped too. The element of surprise is removed.

A realistic solution to this is to increase the base fire chance of HE shells on CVs. Considering an active CV's flight deck is a tinderbox of fuel and munitions they should burn easily and for a long time... That would give a DD hunting a CV a chance of respite. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,161 posts
6,041 battles
Vor 17 Minuten, invicta2012 sagte:

A realistic solution to this is to increase the base fire chance of HE shells on CVs. Considering an active CV's flight deck is a tinderbox of fuel and munitions they should burn easily and for a long time... That would give a DD hunting a CV a chance of respite. 

So you want that poor Hakuryo which has no tools to kill you seriously in a DD anway to die even faster? Great idea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,653 posts
8,649 battles
5 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

So you want that poor Hakuryo which has no tools to kill you seriously in a DS anway to die even faster? Great idea

CVs tend to take little damage during the course of a game, so a DD which chases them will find itself on the wrong side of a 15k vs 50k health pool disparity and very little chance of being able to use its most powerful weapons in response. Making CVS more flammable (but perhaps increasing the fire immunity period of DCP to compensate) would restore the balance to the RTS days. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,161 posts
6,041 battles

If a midway knows where you are as a DD as you are shooting giving away your exact location you will die in 30seconds.

 

You don't want to be shooting at CVs.

Even a Hakuryo will kill you easily with rockets as long as you are spotted while shooting at the CV.

 

My comment of course about Hak having no means applies only to stealthy DDs, just wanted to see if you would pick up on that.

Against a CV who knows what he's doing you don't want to open your guns. Ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
Players
1,952 posts
16,187 battles

Mhm sure, khaba sends his compliments...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,653 posts
8,649 battles
3 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

Against a CV who knows what he's doing you don't want to open your guns. Ever.

Which is why the mechanic needs changing. Spotting the CV so that teammates can fire on it and incapacitate it should be a valid tactic to prevent CV stalemate in the end game (depressingly common). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
1,161 posts
6,041 battles
Vor 2 Minuten, invicta2012 sagte:

Which is why the mechanic needs changing. Spotting the CV so that teammates can fire on it and incapacitate it should be a valid tactic to prevent CV stalemate in the end game (depressingly common). 

Well, you csn of course spot the CV. With your guns silent and AA turned off for the CV to find you depending on his awareness can take a while. But if you spot CV guns blazing expect to get blapped like ever other class would blapp you.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
889 posts
2,506 battles
57 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

A realistic solution to this is to increase the base fire chance of HE shells on CVs. Considering an active CV's flight deck is a tinderbox of fuel and munitions they should burn easily and for a long time... That would give a DD hunting a CV a chance of respite. 

Fire duration on CVs is 5 seconds ... so what would a high fire chance accomplish ? The fires don't stick anyway.

 

The better option would be to be able to kills planes on deck ... like any other modules on other ships ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BGBRD]
Players
322 posts
9,620 battles
1 hour ago, invicta2012 said:

... DD hunting a CV ...

:fish_palm:

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Players
4,508 posts
11,466 battles
8 hours ago, Akula971 said:

If I'm attacking in my planes, I get a nice warning that a destroyer is close by to the carrier, allowing me to break off my attack (F key), scramble a fresh squadron to find and harass him, whilst my carrier runs away. This is also wrong, and needs to be dropped too. The element of surprise is removed.

This is just CVs being treated as everything else, though. BBs parked behind in the back, cruisers repositioning with their guns off, DDs sitting in smoke when someone fires Radar - the game works on the assumption that you're allowed to know that you got spotted (and, roughly, what by). Removing this from planes is one thing, but from CV hull... questionable to say the least. Yes, if this was removed, we would probably see more dead "airport mode" CVs, but there just doesn't seem to be a viable reason for why CVs should be punished in this way when nobody else is. Especially since this seems to go directly against WGs policies - CV player's control of their hull is severely impaired to force them to focus on their planes. Setting aside the flaws of that approach - it just can't be reconciled with removal of "sixth sense" since the effect of that would be "CV players need to pay more attention to surroundings of their hull because they have to assume that they might be spotted at any moment".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×