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Felixshoen

End of an Era

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4 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

Hedgehog. I wasnt over extended.  That was on mountain range map near A.  I was only one square forward of spawn point.  If one square forward is over-extension then i need to play on the map edge. lol

You need to switch to BB to ride the white line tho... :cap_fainting:

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5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

Well, played this game since Beta.  I've always liked the speed and versatility of destroyers but since the carrier "rebalance?" patch there is just no gameplay for the DD's at high tier.

You would be right for the first week of February. You'd have a point for the next two weeks.  Since 0.8.0.3 this is just BS. Most high tier matches see no CVs at all and when CVs are present, they are neither a huge direct threat nor very capable at indirectly getting you killed. They can be a bit of a pain if your ship's AA sucks but as long as you don't solo yolo, you should be perfectly ok. Basically, yes, it was bad for a moment but after all the hotfixes high tier DDs aren't much worse off (in fact, I would argue that they are in a better spot) than before the rework. At the very least they are better off in current CV matches than in pre-rework CV matches.

 

Reasons for this surprisingly good situation are several:

 - CVs have less spotting power. Since 0.8.0.3 they are outright pitiful in that regard when it comes to DDs. To keep you spotted requires CV's full effort AND costs a lot of planes if you're in a DD with anything resembling AA onboard (not only def. AA equipped DDs qualify here - Kitakaze's AA does the job as well, quickly getting rid of spotting fighters and inflicting heavy damage on "normal" planes, making any attempts as permaspotting much, MUCH more costly than it would've been pre-rework). You do need to account for a CV presence in the match but it's nowhere near as disruptive as it used to be pre-rework.

 - CV spotting now is actually not one-sidedly harmful to DDs but it actually benefits them as well. CVs on their early scouting run tend to stumble upon the Radar cruisers, notifying friendly DDs as to where the Radars are about to position themselves - and, from my experience, that's a huge help. It makes early decision making easier and saves you the fear of "surprise Radars" from as-of-yet unspotted cruisers that managed to sneak up next to the caps - because they have a much harder time getting into position without getting at least briefly spotted.

 - planes no longer spot torps. Be it ship fighters, ship spotting planes or CV squadrons cruising in the area - your torps are safe from accidental spotting

 - CVs at high tier are now a bit more than twice as popular as they were before the rework. Basically, while you do see more of them than you used to, it's still going to be less than half your battles (it will probably change for a bit once people start getting their hands on t8 and t10 RN CVs - the introduction of a new line that might have yet to be nerfed to the ground might make it harder again but for now the situation is as it is)

 - due to CVs being less scarce, more ships are built (At least partially) for AA than they used to - this means some more defensive AA and some less hydro on ships that need to choose

 - CVs carry potential is much lower than it used to be. A great player can still influence the battle quite a bit, but a great DD player will likely have more impact; basically, even with CVs in the game, it's the noob team that loses you games, not the noob CV specifically :Smile_trollface:

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

This is probably why you see so few now. 

Actually, I see a lot of them. The numbers of DDs in high tier games are a bit lower than pre-rework but it's not a big difference.

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

It's the one ship class guaranteed to attract toxic comments from team when you refuse to suicide cap in the face of 3 radar ships while your support is nestled comfortably in rocks.

Actually, as a side-effect of the first week of the rework, people seem to have became much more tolerant towards DDs doing whatever the f*ck they want lately - even in matches with no CVs.

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

What isn't easy to work around are the carrier planes.

Well, to that I can only answer "well, it's easy to me", can't really say for other people... but I doubt I'm that much of an awesome player to be able to play in ways completely unattainable to other people.

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

Even with 2 CV fighter groups over me (which is rare that your own CV's try to protect you, thx btw) a lone midway attack squadron was still able to knock 1/3 of my hitpoints away, even while dodging. 

Are you sure you were dodging the right way?... As well as using the tools you have (sector reinforcement, turning off your AA, perhaps smoke depending on circumstances)? The threat of Midway comes more from the dive bombers than rockets because the former don't need the ridiculous attack run... also, if you were under friendly fighters, the enemy attack planes should've never gotten more than one attack at you (the rest of the squadron would've been annihilated by fighters or at the very least chased off). If you really lost 1/3 hp to a single attack from Middway's rockets despite dodging properly, then I can only imagine how many virigins the Midway player must've sacrificed to RNGods before the match.

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

And yeah, i know the haters and trolls will tell you all about how great they are and that DD's are overpowered..yada, yada, yada.  Fact is, even an average carrier player can take DD's right out of a match.

Actually, no, they can't. They could in 0.8.0.0, yes.

 

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

First you get spotted, then attacked, and meanwhile every ship in range of you fires a volley.  You cant get away because even at 45kts the planes will come back to re-spot just in time for the magic radar cruisers to chain up their radar.

Well, that sounds like you're playing in a way that ignores both the presence of enemy CVs AND the presence of enemy Radars. If you solo yolo out of friendly AA and inside enemy Radar while also lingering in open water with no hard cover to prevent enemies from shooting at you then yes, you will die. Then again, if you play like that then nothing short of god mode would've saved you even if CVs had no weapons and no ability to light up DDs for their team at all :Smile_sceptic:

 

5 hours ago, Felixshoen said:

I'm not alone in this.  Last 5 tier 10 games I played had only one or two DD's.  That's a far cry from the old 5 per side games you saw just a few months ago.

Confirmation bias. Taking the numbers from the last week and the two-month stats ending just before the rework...

2 months before the rework the average number of high tier DDs per team per match was 2,89

during the last 1 week the average number of high tier DDs per team per match was 2,41

Yes. There is less of them. But no, the difference is not huge. The matches with lots of DDs still happen and even before the rework they weren't nearly as prevalent as you seem to believe.

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1 minute ago, eliastion said:

CVs carry potential is much lower than it used to be.

 

It's more like WG :etc_swear:ed up the rework so much that even fewer people can unlock the full potential of CVs, thus increasing the skill gap even further.

Trust me when I say that DDs have no place in a match with a truly skilled CV.

 

On the bright side that's like 5-10 guys nowadays unlike the ~100 or so in the RTS iteration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

It's more like WG :etc_swear:ed up the rework so much that even fewer people can unlock the full potential of CVs, thus increasing the skill gap even further.

Trust me when I say that DDs have no place in a match with a truly skilled CV.

 

On the bright side that's like 5-10 guys nowadays unlike the ~100 or so in the RTS iteration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, then I have yet to play against a truly skilled CV despite having played well over a hundred battles in DDs over the last week or two. Making their presence pretty much irrelevant to "normal" DD experience - even if we were to assume that you are actually right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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47 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

On the bright side that's like 5-10 guys nowadays unlike the ~100 or so in the RTS iteration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

So far!

 

3 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Can someone tell me how you are supposed to be of any use when youre perma spotted the entire game in a T3-5 DD by double squadrons of planes?

 

I asked this 6 people so far - still waiting for an answer.

 

 

 

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Vor 5 Stunden, ForlornSailor sagte:

 

These comments aka missconceptions made me take a look at your stats. Have you ever thought about the possibility, that maybe something you do wrong, is causing the problems you see? Why dont you use your energy and the forum at hand to ask people, how to improve?

 

 

That's a truly 'special' post.

 

Look at who is stats flaming. Your solo stats, 51% WR, are magnitudes worse than his, you get carried by a division - and looking at your plane kills - most likely a CV division.

 

And btw, he has 12, you have more than 6 thousand post on a video game forum. So much for 'energy use'...

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3 minutes ago, thisismalacoda said:

Look at who is stats flaming.

Ummm... you are?

 

3 minutes ago, thisismalacoda said:

Your solo stats, 51% WR, are magnitudes worse than his, you get carried by a division - and looking at your plane kills - most likely a CV division.

Truely amazing how you interpret stats.

1,44 planekills... clearly CV doing the carry.

Also: If one does not enjoy playing alone, why is that a bad thing? Ontop: Why would you carry someone around by playing with him if he would be that bad? I wouldnt deliberately division all the time with bad players...

 

3 minutes ago, thisismalacoda said:

And btw, he has 12, you have more than 6 thousand post on a video game forum. So much for 'energy use'...

No comment on whos flaming again :cap_fainting:

giphy.gif

 

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Might be too much logic for him. That Pigeons and chess thing comes to mind :Smile_coin:. Small look at his profile confirmed: CV hater. He sees bad CV-folk everywhere and feels the need to attack them (since he cant do it in game :cap_haloween:).

 

btw. you missed this one:

14 minutes ago, thisismalacoda said:

you have more than 6 thousand post on a video game forum

 

109246689_Screenshot_2019-03-03EndofanEra.png.7c6ef18bf16cea9b947cd845d8aab69f.png

 

Games, posts - who cares when your bloodpressure reaches 250! :Smile_veryhappy:

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1 hour ago, eliastion said:

Making their presence pretty much irrelevant to "normal" DD experience - even if we were to assume that you are actually right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Doesn't seem like WG believes that considering all the recent... changes. :Smile_sceptic:

 

On a more serious note, since I have the opportunity to play on the CN server where RTS CVs still exist I've made some rough comparisons on how fast the two different iterations can wipe all DDs off of the map.

At high tiers reworked CVs become substantially faster at it assuming same tier targets.

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17 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

On a more serious note, since I have the opportunity to play on the CN server where RTS CVs still exist I've made some rough comparisons on how fast the two different iterations can wipe all DDs off of the map.

At high tiers reworked CVs become substantially faster at it assuming same tier targets.

If all of them are potaotes or assume the CV to be a complete potato then perhaps yes. I admit this starts happening to me as well (not the "being wiped off the map" thing - the "assuming that a same tier two tiers higher CV is not a threat at all" part, sometimes this costs me like half my hp  :Smile_teethhappy:).

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3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I had one (ONE) game with no DDs and it was a real exception (mostly US/RN cruisers trying to get those 30 plane kills).

 

Each team consisted of 2 battleships and 10 cruisers! That was weird as heck! :cap_book:

 

But DD numbers have absolutely not gone down. Also not just because you say so. I see so many games with 4 DDs each side, the limit of 4 max is still needed for DDs.

 

EDIT: Now I had a count of my matches the last 3 days. What you describe was totally not what I printscreened. You probably FEEL as if there's fewer DDs in the game then there are in reality.

 

So far I counted in 18 matches:

0xDD 1 (this was the weird match with 10 cruisers each)

1xDD 1

2xDD 3

3xDD 8

4xDD 5

 

I don't see any lack of DDs here. And what you state is certainly not true unless your data is somehow corrupt or inaccurate.

How many games did you MEASURE the amount of DDs? Or are these experiences of yours mere underbelly feels?

I'm glad you bring up statistics to me that I'm possibly unable to react to because of you having all the information regarding it and then you call me out on a debate about it. Funny.

 

2v4irb.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Humorpalanta said:

I'm glad you bring up statistics to me that I'm possibly unable to react to because of you having all the information regarding it and then you call me out on a debate about it. Funny.

 

2v4irb.jpg

I'm not the one making stats up. You are.

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4 hours ago, Max_Kammerer said:

Really ???, this MM is common these days...

Bez názvu-1.jpg

Lol, only now noticed this one. This is a nice specimen! Here's mine, of today :Smile-_tongue:

shot-19_03_03_13_45.21-0996.thumb.jpg.96233653215265e226f5d7227a6eae0a.jpg

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2 hours ago, eliastion said:

You would be right for the first week of February. You'd have a point for the next two weeks.  Since 0.8.0.3 this is just BS. Most high tier matches see no CVs at all and when CVs are present, they are neither a huge direct threat nor very capable at indirectly getting you killed. They can be a bit of a pain if your ship's AA sucks but as long as you don't solo yolo, you should be perfectly ok

I witnessed a Lexington take out a gearing in the first few minutes of a game. Ok the lexington had a win rate of more or less 80%, and the gearing didn't seem to playing that well (didn't think to check his stats).  But that was with a mino a square, to a square and a half away. And I'm sailing in a cossack with worse AA than a tier 4 - so if a gearing is having problems...

 

I've had 75% good/ok games with CVs about, and about 25% terrible. Problem is it's the terrible ones you remember - and put you off the game. And in my experience I'm still getting a lot more of those then before the rework. Whether it's the CVs themselves (in the case of the 80% win rate dude), or the effect a CV has on how your team plays.

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Edited*

 

@OP

play around with "P" button and don't overextend. And don't get caught stationary by CV bombers. that's all the magic

 

good CV players wont even bother with DDs if they dont have to because dealing dmg to decent DD is very unreliable, rockets often fail if the DD knows how to disable/enable AA properly and DBs are very RNG (but extremely deadly if you allow CV to line up the drop perfectly and RNG will screw you over)

obviously, if you miss-position too much or become serious threat, they will go after you and get you killed

 

Please try to stay away from personal remarks.

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3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

It's more like WG :etc_swear:ed up the rework so much that even fewer people can unlock the full potential of CVs, thus increasing the skill gap even further.

Trust me when I say that DDs have no place in a match with a truly skilled CV.

 

On the bright side that's like 5-10 guys nowadays unlike the ~100 or so in the RTS iteration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We have a place us DD’s. But my god when against a Unicum CV you have to be on the ball every second and play utterly different. I can thankfully as I’ve got the DD skills. And I find it... un-fun/nerve wrecking/totally engaging/adrenaline fuelled chaos. I know a contradiction. 

 

As for everyone else. Most of you are trying to put down facts based on personal play experiences. Tip, that’s not how facts work. Some players hardly see CV’s some have double every game. Some have 4DD, some have 1. Frankly I’ve had it all. There is no standard MM currently, and won’t be for a while as RN CV’s are coming out and soon Russian super boats will flood the MM (CV’s, you’re gonna love that radar if it stays). Such is the nature of the game. I think high tier double CV games are ridiculous and as a DD unfun. Does not mean you can’t win and do well. And I love getting the CV spot so they can have some of their own medicine. 

 

The only people doing ok in CV’s and DD’s are the purple ones. It’s the rest that suffer. And that’s not to be blamed on ship class v ship class. That’s WG fault and issue so take it up with them and stop blaming fellow players for playing how they like.

 

Grow the :etc_swear:up. And yes, I can get salty to, but in the grand scheme of things I’ve brought my self down to earth and...

 

 

7EFDF37A-B3E9-4B44-B4F7-C54AD843D301.gif

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1 hour ago, eliastion said:

If all of them are potaotes or assume the CV to be a complete potato then perhaps yes.

 

I've had no issues killing DDs regardless of skill level tbh. There are ofc the very few that actually stick with their cruisers but usually those cruisers tend to be not very cooperative in where a DD wants to go so that's my job pretty much done regardless.

:etc_swear: gets real when said cruisers are actually in cahoots with their DDs, but that has happened to me exactly once so far. And I still won that match thanks to some heroics my team pulled. 

 

Then again there are very... special people around as well. Just recently hit a Haru with a single TiT for 1,7k damage. Was a throwaway strike since RFs aren't that useful anymore nowadays. "Not a big deal," I thought, "this is all just to soften him up for the DBs".

I was rather surprised to see "OMG GET CANCER CV" in chat followed by him immediately ragequitting. I :etc_swear: you not, he ragequit over that single rocket hit.

giphy.gif

 

Don't wanna sound unappreciative of the free kill on my DB follow up but, I mean, really?

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7 hours ago, DrMechano said:

See the problem you're having is that you get spotted. Meanwhile, in Soviet Russia, the DDs couldn't give a flying flook about being spotted. In fact It feels like a natural state to them...but then they are basically just small cruisers (probably why I like them so much) so sticking with your fleet at the start is pretty much the norm for them. Even baited in some rocket planes straight into the firing line of an enemy Worc a few times. I swear CVs get a bloodlust the moment they see a DD.

Well what is for you a problem it isn't for me. I play most of my games as DD and I never have any problem when a CV player takes me out. I know he's in the match, so it' s up to me to or take cover or to stay close to a 'random teammate' who can help me with AA. The reason is because I self doesn't have any trouble's when  I take out an opponent DD with 1 torp what mostly end for a 'destroy' or 'crippeled almost to dead' of the opponent DD.  Fair is fair for me. when I can get that amount of damage to an opponent DD, I never complain when the opponent can do the same to me. 

When you have 2 CV players in each team, then I complain as DD player. Then it's for me not a 'fair match' anymore. Specially because you can have matches without any CV player at all. So for me , the MM isn't working properly like it should. Because indeed it ends that both CV's have a 'bloodlust' to the DD's.  

I self played also the tier 4 CV's. Damm, it's not that easy to have a decent battle with them. So yes, I can understand the CV players they hunt the DD's because they are the easiest targets. Some targets, and I talk about tier 4 CV games, you simply can not do any damage at all, because all your planes are taking out before your ever been able to launch an attack on them. Not even mentioned yet the attack self, you have to aim 'verry precise' or you end up with a no go at all. And in the verry best, you can only do 2 attackattempts with the same plane load. Then you may press 'F' to return to your ship and launch again the planes. 

 

Second; You talk about an ideal game. It is when the team does accept what you as DD player doing. Most of the 'random ' players doesn't do at all. I get most of my points or HP damage in the first 5 minutes of the game. Then I'm at my best, to launch the torps to the opponent without they expecting it. At the same time, I was never in the cap, sometimes close to it, but not in it. Well at the end of the game, you may expect yourself to have several 'reports' by other players. Just because you didn't capped fast enough for them. Specially when the game ends up in a loss for your team, you may expect 3 to 5 'reports' as DD player. Even you end up at the end of the match in the top 3, you still gonna be reported. Is that fair ? I dont think it is, but they can do it anyway and get supported by WG as ' thank you for your activity, you are improving the game community'. 

Let's make facts also facts. You think that WG needs any proof from your side about any insults you receive ? No, but they still ask 'proof' from you. Why ? Because then they know you have 'proof' of it. So then they gonna take actions, because you can use that 'proof' also out of the game. WG knows exactly what is going on on your account. But when you show them a printscreen, they know they have to react, because you can proof it also outside of WG territory or 'playfield'. 

 

The same with the game... You think they don't know how your performance is in the game ? They know it exactly and their 'hotfix' and 'patches' are based on that. Not what you tell them. The only thing they do is taking it also as a 'fact' so they take it as an 'element' they have to follow. But normally it's based on what 'they see' in the game. Not what you see. 

To give you an example, when I did 60K damage in games without a CV and before the patch 08.00, and I do now 80K damage after the patch , then for WG there isn't any issue with the DD's in the game neither with the CV's. 

 

The only thing I discovered with the new update is that most of the active players are 'quiting' , 'take a pauze ' of the game and play other games during that time. . And that's what I dbn't like at all. But heck, I also gonna take a 'break' for 2 months now. I've passed the 'commander/authority ' to another player of the clan and tomorrow  I also take a  long break. 

I don't wish to be part of a life "megaserver" when we see in the game all the mistakes WG is taken. Then I tell, let WG figuring out without me. I'm not that importanted, so they can balance the game without me also 

 

 

 

 

 

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Had a game other day where a dd wouldn't go to a open cap so I flew over it and proved to our dd it was clear and he still wouldn't cap and one of our cruisers did it

Later in the game the useless dd got behind enemy to finally attack their cv and as usual he failed but he spammed hate to me because I didn't protect him when he ordered me to send my fighter squadron over him 

Damned idiot didn't even realise we can't control fighters anymore

 

 

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3 minutes ago, beercrazy said:

Had a game other day where a dd wouldn't go to a open cap so I flew over it and proved to our dd it was clear and he still wouldn't cap and one of our cruisers did it

Later in the game the useless dd got behind enemy to finally attack their cv and as usual he failed but he spammed hate to me because I didn't protect him when he ordered me to send my fighter squadron over him 

Damned idiot didn't even realise we can't control fighters anymore

 

 

I had 2 games recently in my CV where the enemy shima did not cap or do anything. They basically spent the entire game sailing ard the map border to sink me. First one did, second one failed. When i asked the 2nd one whether it was worth it, he said yes, "I did alot of damage" (note he did not sink me though). My team literally had free caps. :Smile_facepalm:

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3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I've had no issues killing DDs regardless of skill level tbh.

Well, I've had no issues surviving (and doing reasonably well in a match) against CVs regardless of skill level - but, as I said previously, perhaps I failed to ever meet the really good ones.

 

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Then again there are very... special people around as well. Just recently hit a Haru with a single TiT for 1,7k damage. Was a throwaway strike since RFs aren't that useful anymore nowadays. "Not a big deal," I thought, "this is all just to soften him up for the DBs".

I was rather surprised to see "OMG GET CANCER CV" in chat followed by him immediately ragequitting. I :etc_swear: you not, he ragequit over that single rocket hit.

Imagine him receiving a normal pen (since Harugumo can) from a BB AP salvo :Smile_teethhappy:

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4 hours ago, RAYvenMP said:

good CV players wont even bother with DDs if they dont have to because dealing dmg to decent DD is very unreliable, rockets often fail if the DD knows how to disable/enable AA properly and DBs are very RNG (but extremely deadly if you allow CV to line up the drop perfectly and RNG will screw you over)

obviously, if you miss-position too much or become serious threat, they will go after you and get you killed

You’ll find the good CV players. The really good ones, they do go for you in a DD at every opportunity where they can strike.

 

Rockets seem to be consistent in chip damage and the good cv players can make an attack’s run based on their first spotting of you.

 

The good CV players can land DB and really damage a DD. Only AA spec DD’s can lessen that damage.

 

I don’t know what CV players you’ve been up against in DD’s but the good ones won’t ignore a DD, especially when there are only 1/2 in a game.

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3 hours ago, Hundigo said:

Second; You talk about an ideal game. It is when the team does accept what you as DD player doing. Most of the 'random ' players doesn't do at all. I get most of my points or HP damage in the first 5 minutes of the game. Then I'm at my best, to launch the torps to the opponent without they expecting it. At the same time, I was never in the cap, sometimes close to it, but not in it. Well at the end of the game, you may expect yourself to have several 'reports' by other players. Just because you didn't capped fast enough for them. Specially when the game ends up in a loss for your team, you may expect 3 to 5 'reports' as DD player. Even you end up at the end of the match in the top 3, you still gonna be reported. Is that fair ? I dont think it is, but they can do it anyway and get supported by WG as ' thank you for your activity, you are improving the game community'. 

Let's make facts also facts. You think that WG needs any proof from your side about any insults you receive ? No, but they still ask 'proof' from you. Why ? Because then they know you have 'proof' of it. So then they gonna take actions, because you can use that 'proof' also out of the game. WG knows exactly what is going on on your account. But when you show them a printscreen, they know they have to react, because you can proof it also outside of WG territory or 'playfield'.

 

Well at the start of the match I usually type in chat "going to hang back with the fleet, let the enemy CV get their rocket planes out of their system" or "Won't be pushing cap early, 8.7km detection range" and this is usually enough for people, a little communication goes a long way. I've not had a single report yet. In fact I've had several people go "Well duh, you're in a Russian DD, we know." Do you explain to people in chat that you're not pushing a cap just yet at the very start?

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