End of an Era

[Felixshoen]

Well, played this game since Beta.  I've always liked the speed and versatility of destroyers but since the carrier "rebalance?" patch there is just no gameplay for the DD's at high tier.  This is probably why you see so few now.  It's the one ship class guaranteed to attract toxic comments from team when you refuse to suicide cap in the face of 3 radar ships while your support is nestled comfortably in rocks.  But that's easy to work around.  What isn't easy to work around are the carrier planes.  Even with 2 CV fighter groups over me (which is rare that your own CV's try to protect you, thx btw) a lone midway attack squadron was still able to knock 1/3 of my hitpoints away, even while dodging.

     And yeah, i know the haters and trolls will tell you all about how great they are and that DD's are overpowered..yada, yada, yada.  Fact is, even an average carrier player can take DD's right out of a match.  First you get spotted, then attacked, and meanwhile every ship in range of you fires a volley.  You cant get away because even at 45kts the planes will come back to re-spot just in time for the magic radar cruisers to chain up their radar.

     It's understandable that there would be so many complaints about DD's, i mean, who likes to get torpedoed?  The problem is that patch after patch has made DD's less and less capable of doing their jobs and less fun to play.  I used to have 11 DD's in my port.  Now i have 4.  Soon i will have none.  Why work so hard for a mediocre game when i could play a US cruiser and spam HE over rocks while chaining up radar that sees thru rocks.  Hell of a lot easier than dealing with teammates that spam the map square calling you all kinds of insults because you dont park in the cap and die for them.

     I'm not alone in this.  Last 5 tier 10 games I played had only one or two DD's.  That's a far cry from the old 5 per side games you saw just a few months ago. (granted that was way too many)  At any rate after years of playing DD's i am gradually selling off all of them.  They were fun for a while.  Now they are just paper thin mini-cruisers with a "kick-me" sign on the fantail.

[Floofz]

Are we playing the same game cause I really havent seen a decline in amount of DDs per battle. What I have seen is a huge decline in CVs. CVs are virtually none existant in high tiers.

[Humorpalanta]

5 minutes ago, AdmiralDing3Ling said:

Are we playing the same game cause I really havent seen a decline in amount of DDs per battle. What I have seen is a huge decline in CVs. CVs are virtually none existant in high tiers.

I have been playing this game for 3 years. Nowadays I can see several games without any DD and many games with max 1 DD each side. Not counting the first day of new BB/CA/CL lines this is something I haven't seen before.

[Felixshoen]

Depends on what time of day you play.  I played 5 games in a row: 3 in shimakaze, 2 in Gearing (AA spec).  Every game had at least one CV.  Both shimakaze games had 2 CV's (of course, lol).  I was solo DD in three of those 5 games.  In all five games there was a minimum of 4 radar cruisers on enemy side.  

[Ilya_Wolf]

It is true the era of DD being able to sail right around the enemy fleet and torp them in the side/back is gone.

But that does not mean DD cannot do well even in CV games.

 

As someone who has played quite alot in the new midway and considered myself to be a DD main (though im getting more balanced out now) allow me to offer some tips on what not to do anymore in the new meta;

 

If you try to sneak around the sides of the map to get to the cv, you will die horribly, even without RPF captain skill it is quite trivial to figure out when a destroyer is trying to do this, then its just a matter of time until it is found and killed.

 

If you have your AA turned on at the start of the match, you will get a slap to the face, it has been this way long since before the rework happened. [P] is default key to turn it off, use it.

Also a mistake i often see DDs trying to escape planes, they do not pay proper attention to the distance between them and the planes, instead of turning AA back off (and dissapearing temporarily) they leave it on and.. pray?

I can tell you from experience, the DD who never even bothers to turn his AA on is alot harder to strike because you get almost no time to line up the attack run.

 

Speedboosting to the caps in the first couple of minutes is a huge mistake, dont get me wrong, you should head in the right direction, but at a speed similar to the rest of your team!

as long as you are within ~5km of an allied cruiser/battleship you are not a juicy target to a smart cv since it would cost most or all of a squad for a very small amount of damage that may not even land on you...

 

Refusing to use your smoke before you take damage from the planes, really it is wierd how many players wait until i smash them for 1/2 health before they decide to hit that smoke button.

Decide beforehand if you are willing to stop&smoke or not, if you do it in proper time you can avoid being damaged entirely and trust me, no sensible cv player is going to keep hovering above your smoke for 2 minutes.

 

This is not always correct but, for the most part, rockets are just irritating little mosquitos, divebombers are the hornets that gonna make you scream in pain.

Understanding the mechanics of what hunts you is important to properly predict when/if you need to put more effort into avoiding them, a similar learning curve happened when radar cruisers became more common.

 

Hopefully this will help someone, we could use more smart DD players these days!

[lossi_2018]

depends on the time of day, but the dds are less as are the cvs. Used to play with dds for fun but I sold them all too. While some of them are still dangerous and somewhat OP, it is true CVs have hurt them but I think CVs have changed the game for all ships. Perhaps with balance we will see more regular numbers again. Main prob for me is that certain ships are a bit OP with no reason be it dds (few basically khaba and the sisters), cruisers (russian mostly but some known others), and a couple of bbs. Players skill plays a huge role here as well. I wish they would fix the fps probs and stop implementing new stuff although I understand the policy driving them to do it. It is a business. 

[Felixshoen]

The best way to illustrate how crappy and thankless DD's are to play now is to describe the fourth game i played today in my AA spec Gearing (with 19 point officer and manual AA).  I started moving at a wide angle to the cap to get my torpedoes loaded before i committed to anything.  Not a thing was spotted as i moved.  Within one minute of moving an enemy attack squadron from a midway flew down map (they are very, very fast) directly onto me.  The planes flew a straight course as if they knew exactly where i was.  No friendly cruiser had moved at a speed more than 1/2 throttle so of course i was on my own.  Even with AA spec was only able to kill 3 planes after taking two rocket strikes.  During the strikes while i was spotted i was hit by 3 rounds from 2 Yamatos halfway across map. (go figure)  Now, with less than 4 minutes into game i have 1/4 health, i'm still 8 km away from cap and suddely i'm lit up by a Moskva radar that is parked behind an island behind cap.  It's at that point where i finally spot 2 US cruisers as they open fire from a range of 12km six seconds after radar hits.  End of game.  The carrier planes spotted me, damaged me, prevented me from forward spotting, and penned me into an area where cruisers could converge knowing my approximate position.  All within the first few minutes, and all without risking itself as it sat at the back of the map.  Sound like fun?

[ColonelPete]

Shima was the most played ship on the EU server last week (like most weeks).

 

Weekly Class distribution in higher Tier since April last year

 

While DD numbers took a dive after the CV patch, they are starting a slow comeback. We now have higher numbers than after the US CL patch.

 

[Floofz]

Even thou I havent seen a decline in DD players personally I do have to agree with you that playing DDs right now is pretty crappy. Ive barely played any DD matches since the rework and that is mainly due to it just isnt fun. I mean sure I can do well but it isnt fun. You cant push out to a flank and throw torps on the enemy fleets flank because if you get spotted by a plane youll die. You cant push solo into caps and contest them because youll get spotted by planes. 

So yea guess I changed my mind a bit about this whole situation.

Ive said it before I think the best solution for CVs right now is to buff the damage of torps and bombs, make rocket dispersion worse and then make all spotting done by planes for the CV alone. Friendly ships can not see what your planes spot. Then you could also increase the spottingrange so that it isnt lower than the AA range.

[MyopicHedgehog]

7 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

The best way to illustrate how crappy and thankless DD's are to play now is to describe the fourth game i played today in my AA spec Gearing (with 19 point officer and manual AA).  I started moving at a wide angle to the cap to get my torpedoes loaded before i committed to anything.  Not a thing was spotted as i moved.  Within one minute of moving an enemy attack squadron from a midway flew down map (they are very, very fast) directly onto me.  The planes flew a straight course as if they knew exactly where i was.  No friendly cruiser had moved at a speed more than 1/2 throttle so of course i was on my own.  Even with AA spec was only able to kill 3 planes after taking two rocket strikes.  During the strikes while i was spotted i was hit by 3 rounds from 2 Yamatos halfway across map. (go figure)  Now, with less than 4 minutes into game i have 1/4 health, i'm still 8 km away from cap and suddely i'm lit up by a Moskva radar that is parked behind an island behind cap.  It's at that point where i finally spot 2 US cruisers as they open fire from a range of 12km six seconds after radar hits.  End of game.  The carrier planes spotted me, damaged me, prevented me from forward spotting, and penned me into an area where cruisers could converge knowing my approximate position.  All within the first few minutes, and all without risking itself as it sat at the back of the map.  Sound like fun?

 

I think that what Ilya Wolf is saying is that you shouldn't have been so far in advance of your team, i.e. you overextended.  This is not a criticism, I do it all the time...  Just means that we need to be more passive (fun and engaging eh?)

[Felixshoen]

And Ilya Wolf.  I know what you are saying so let me tell you about game #2 (dual CV, i'm in shimakaze).  Same game start.  withing first two minutes i have 2 squadrons on me.  I go into smoke and ask for support from our cv's or a passing cruiser.  No help.  As i come out of smoke i spot 2 radar cruisers (both US) moving down at a range of around 13km.  I start taking a course away from the position where i had to dive into smoke.  My team starts pinging the map incessantly wanting me to cap.  Again i ask for assistance because i cannot force a cap without first pushing those two US cruisers up and away.  Now the insults start in chat.  Long story short.  We lost.  I never could get in position to cap as i was attacked by planes several times after that.  I end game and it appears i have been reported by both 3-ship divisions on my team. (gee, thanks).  I guess the only way not to get reported is by suiciding into a cap and dying.  Pass.  It's a thankless job playing a destroyer and no longer fun

[Ilya_Wolf]

4 minutes ago, MyopicHedgehog said:

 

I think that the what Ilya Wolf is saying is that you shouldn't have been so far in advance of your team, i.e. you overextended.  This is not a criticism, I do it all the time...  Just means that we need to be more passive (fun and engaging eh?)

 

I like to think WG did this deliberately to force us to play as a team 

If you really think about it, any other ship type that sails off alone usually gets punished pretty hard, cv game or not.

[Zuihou_Kai]

every DD player in my clan who complained about DDs being unplayable changed their mind and adapted after i took them into the training room.

Use your brain, play smart. Use AA at the right time and sail safely and you will have no issues

[Felixshoen]

Hedgehog. I wasnt over extended.  That was on mountain range map near A.  I was only one square forward of spawn point.  If one square forward is over-extension then i need to play on the map edge. lol

[Ilya_Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

And Ilya Wolf.  I know what you are saying so let me tell you about game #2 (dual CV, i'm in shimakaze).  Same game start.  withing first two minutes i have 2 squadrons on me.  I go into smoke and ask for support from our cv's or a passing cruiser.  No help.  As i come out of smoke i spot 2 radar cruisers (both US) moving down at a range of around 13km.  I start taking a course away from the position where i had to dive into smoke.  My team starts pinging the map incessantly wanting me to cap.  Again i ask for assistance because i cannot force a cap without first pushing those two US cruisers up and away.  Now the insults start in chat.  Long story short.  We lost.  I never could get in position to cap as i was attacked by planes several times after that.  I end game and it appears i have been reported by both 3-ship divisions on my team. (gee, thanks).  I guess the only way not to get reported is by suiciding into a cap and dying.  Pass.  It's a thankless job playing a destroyer and no longer fun

 

Yeah, unfortunately what you just described is the critical problem with the game in general, not really specific to DD gameplay.

Too many potato suicide teams lately, either they blob up and refuse to fight, or they sail one by one into the enemy ships and die horribly.

Ignore the reports & toxic chat, i get so much crap from people going on about how bad i am etc, just say "lets see the scoreboard at the end then" it usually shuts them up.

It is frustrating when your team refuses to support you (or even try to fight) and there really isnt much you can do about it...

 

Many theories about why its gotten so bad lately, school holidays... weekenders.... people checking the game out again because of the fancy new patch...

The best way i find to avoid getting burnt out on the game is consciously trying to never play during primetime 

[ForlornSailor]

47 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

And yeah, i know the haters and trolls will tell you all about how great they are and that DD's are overpowered..yada, yada, yada. 

 

Oh... I just wanted to throw a screenshot at you - now I feel unsecure.

 

47 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

Fact is, even an average carrier player can take DD's right out of a match.

 

For the third time this week: Sentences, that start with "fact is" - are almost always bs. An average carrier can not take a DD right out of the match - else he wouldnt be average. The turds just keep feeding their planes into you, because they dont understand the concept of teamplay. In this case: instead of attacking the DD, keep it spotted for the team.

 

47 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

Even with 2 CV fighter groups over me (which is rare that your own CV's try to protect you, thx btw)

CVs cant help you anymore if you dont do you part - you do know that, right?

 

47 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

planes will come back to re-spot just in time for the magic radar cruisers to chain up their radar.

 

47 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

all kinds of insults because you dont park in the cap and die for them.

 

These comments aka missconceptions made me take a look at your stats. Have you ever thought about the possibility, that maybe something you do wrong, is causing the problems you see? Why dont you use your energy and the forum at hand to ask people, how to improve?
 

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

Hedgehog. I wasnt over extended.  That was on mountain range map near A.  I was only one square forward of spawn point.  If one square forward is over-extension then i need to play on the map edge. lol

Then why did you not turn back to your team?

You can spot the planes in time.

[loppantorkel]

18 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Shima was the most played ship on the EU server last week (like most weeks).

 

Weekly Class distribution in higher Tier since April last year

 

While DD numbers took a dive after the CV patch, they are starting a slow comeback. We now have higher numbers than after the US CL patch.

Shima players seem to never be affected by any meta changes. I can only assume they have the special competence to overcome obstacles any normal players would quit the game for.

 

edit: On topic... There are hardly any cvs to meet atm, and when there are, dds are still very viable and powerful. The game is changing by the week, but currently - if you think dds have a tough time, you probably need to learn a few things.

[Felixshoen]

"Use AA at the right time and sail safely and you will have no issues"  yeah, that didn't take long.  Of course the trolls come out and say it's because i dont have his clan's skill.  Fine. I have no problem saying it's just me.  But, it isn't.  This is why i and others have been playing DD's less.  Also to the graph guy.  Yes i see shimas being played but that graph doesnt show what other DD's are in same game as Shima when it's played.  I'm not playing DD's anymore, which is another way of having no issues with them

[Ilya_Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

Hedgehog. I wasnt over extended.  That was on mountain range map near A.  I was only one square forward of spawn point.  If one square forward is over-extension then i need to play on the map edge. lol

 

If this is true.. i am pretty sure one square is ~5km on most maps... (within AA range of whatever spawned next to you)

Your team must have lemming trained hard in the opposite direction, or you got one of those freak spawn alone scenarios.

In such cases, all aboard the lemming train choo choo!

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, loppantorkel said:

Shima players seem to never be affected by any meta changes. I can only assume they have the special competence to overcome obstacles any normal players would quit the game for.

 

...with the emphasis on "special"

 

2 minutes ago, Ilya_Wolf said:

If this is true.. i am pretty sure one square is ~5km on most maps... (within AA range of whatever spawned next to you)

 

Its useless to engage in a discussion with him about that situation because he might just bend the reality to fit his narrative. Give replay or l2p.

[Ilya_Wolf]

1 minute ago, Felixshoen said:

Of course the trolls come out and say it's because i dont have his clan's skill.  Fine. I have no problem saying it's just me.  But, it isn't.  This is why i and others have been playing DD's less.

 

Dont let the trolls get to you (though i dont think they are trying to be trolls, just not very nice how they give advice)

Obviously you have found the new gameplay challenging and came to the forums, which is why i wrote a list of things that might help you enjoy the game more.

 

I remember when i was adapting to the awful radar meta when it first happened, i had a game with 6 enemy radars, i spent about 10 minutes poking a cap, being radared, running away, rinse repeat.

After i realized how to minimize the damage they could do i was a bit more calm when dealing with radars, with the new 5 second spotting mechanic they scare me even less now!

 

The same balancing will happen with CVs given time (they already used the nerf sledgehammer on spotting distance from air)

[Felixshoen]

I like ForlornSailer tho. His cruiser and DD's stats are within 40 points of mine yet he talks down to me like i was some scrub. This is what happens on forums so i'm cool with that. Forum threads last 3 replies and then the trolls smell blood and come circling. I simply wanted to share what I have been seeing about DD play.  If you haven't experienced the same thing I am jealous of you.

[Capra76]

31 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Shima was the most played ship on the EU server last week (like most weeks).

 

And herein lies the problem, every anti-dd mechanic hammers the tactical aspects of the game (capping, spotting etc) whilst leaving Shima's walls of skill untouched.

[Ilya_Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Felixshoen said:

This is what happens on forums so i'm cool with that. Forum threads last 3 replies and then the trolls smell blood and come circling.

Hilarious and so true...

 

Just looked your stats up and they are decent enough, couldnt help but notice you never tried CV before? Perhaps you should consider giving them a go just so you understand how they work from a different perspective.

Thats why i play radar cruisers too, know your enemy and all that ;)