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Beastofwar

When is the CV nerfing going to end ??

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1 hour ago, _TinPan_ said:

No critique or complains will make WG turning the wheel back.

I realize that....despite the initial complaining of all classes ( having to adapt to a changed tactical situation but also an unnatural many CV in matches ) after the rework release has disappeared WG still keeps slapping nerfs on like there is no other way.

 

Complaining just like the other classes did, but then about the imposed CV nerfs obviously does nothing. Too few of CV players to make a great enough impression probably. And all those players that hate CV class will not buy crates to get these CV faster in current event anyway, and the ones that do are probably not that many that threatening with a buying boycot - as the other class players did unless CV were nerfed/removed - will even make WG marketeers wonder.

 

Nothing to do but adapt and play with/against the unenjoyable nerfs, or leave these hard to use things in port/sell them. Maybe not buy any lootbox in this CV event for "punishment" But i did buy the Exeter so that will be pointless :-))

 

 

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On 3/1/2019 at 10:36 AM, Beastofwar said:

I really liked the rework when it was released after some adapting to it. But then came nerfs that limited what we had gotten. And more nerfs limiting it even more. And more nerfs that were even worse then before. And now, another extreme nerf.

 

Im sure i can get after some more adapting to these imposed limiting nerfs get to average ship damage. To WG that propapbly means the class is well balanced. But the way they did this has all but completely broken CV gameplay.

 

HOW CAN YOU ENJOY A GAME WHEN FIGHTING AGAINST AIMING YOUR WEAPON ????  HOW CAN YOU ENJOY A GAME WITH YOUR WEAPON REFUSING TO FIRE ????

 

And if a player with  (long) experience in CV gameplay already struggles like this, what the hell must it be like for someone beginning to play this class ???? I truely think you did not do the right thing here. Unless there is someting to it.

 

Is there some plan to this ? Are these temporary nerfs meant to keep CV in check untill well after the full release of the UK CV when use will normilize to low numbers again ?

 

 

 

 

*edit*

 

First off yes ... what insane nerfs are you talking about ? Did the changes to radar effect your torpedo bomber aimbot ?

 

Second: strange how i can still see carriers dominating the game more then the remaining 11 plyers in their team.

 

But you seem to be 1 of those guys who enjoy getting 200k avg damage and 20+ K/D just for left clicking without realising the actual impact.

  1. Any half intelligent carrier can spot the whole enemy team in 90seconds or less .. making any form of flanking, tactic or concealment completely use- and pointless.
  2. Because of >1 most DD are near defenseless since they have no chance of getting anywhere without having 200knots planes perma spotting them.
  3. Any half intelligent carrier can still (spot and) attack anyone anywhere on the map from whatever direction he chooses without risking his ship, disengaging or hiding behind cover like islands is impossible for his victims.
  4. Any half intelligent carrier can easily force any other ship to choose: try to evade the carrier strike and give broadside to the enemy team or angle against the enemy and eat the strike
  5. Any half intelligent carrier can still easily get 100k+ spotting damage without even trying.

Even a T10 carrier doing 50k dmg and 50k spotting damage already performs above average,the "damage dealt" in the statistics isn't the all-important and all-deciding factor.

 

Either way i see enough carrier who can quite easily hit even a DD doing the crazy ivan (and even I do have some not too shabby accuracy despite having only 114 carrier games in nearly 5.2k total, less then 10 of those being post rework) , so if you can't hit anything then ... maybe gitgud ?

 

On 3/1/2019 at 12:49 PM, Sethirod said:

The new flooding mechanic is a huge nerf to CVs.

um ... why ? where ? It's a huge nerf to ship launched torpedoes since you have reload times of sometimes 2minutes +. But it's a huge buff for carrier. A carrier can torp every 10-20seconds, a carrier can relatively easy aim for the nose/stern for seperate floodings since you drop the torpedoes nearly in their face. 2 floodings of the new mechanic do noticably more dmg then the old mechanic (at least against BB, battlecruiser etc)...quite possible for carrier, but it's insanely hard for a DD to hit the nose and stern within 40seconds and impossible to torp every 40seconds (unless you are ultra low tier).

 

On 3/1/2019 at 1:03 PM, Beastofwar said:

I don't even come to frustration about weapons damage because it is rediculously hard to already make them hit in the first place.

Like i said before. In 1 of my morning games i had 1DD, 1 cruiser and 2 carrier per side ... all T4. I ended up doing 30k damage in my hosho ... in a game with only 90k HP on the field to begin with. That was my first game with the reworked Hosho.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 2:29 PM, StalkerSoC said:

rockets were good before (arguably too strong against DDs maybe), now they are so useless

Rockets have like 1 second (or less ) travel time ... if you can't even hit with those... ... ...

 

On 3/2/2019 at 11:11 AM, OVanBruce said:

Quality of Life for the CV player has dropped dramatically. It is frustrating, boring and unfun to play CVs now, sure I can get a good Winrate with them but what is the point of playing a game if it's going to turn out into a frustrating experience.

True words.

Even with all those "nerfs" carrier are still frigging overpowered, people just cry because they don't get devastating strikes for left clicking the auto drop anymore.

But the gameplay has become...bland. The new carrier is really nice and fun ... for 1 or 2 games. No tactics, no strategy, no disengaging and ambushing, no nothing .... just fly the super sonic planes towards the enemy and left click twice ...rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter which map, doesn't matter what ships are on the enemy team or your own, doesn't matter which game mode.

 

On 3/2/2019 at 6:09 PM, NothingButTheRain said:

And if you're lifespan is 2 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

Actually no. The new "nerfed" carrier can spot the whole team in 60-90seconds, there have been alot of cases where players got literally spotted where they spawned and then annihilated by carrier strike + long range fire all the way to ships like yamato oneshotting someone who hasn't even reached max speed yet. The rework has dramatically increased the chance to just die in 3 minutes or less regardless of how good (or bad) you are.

 

On 3/2/2019 at 11:14 AM, NothingButTheRain said:

This is actually what bothers me more. It's hardly rewarding to actually play a battle when in a bottom tier carrier. It's as if some actions like spotting or shooting down planes don't reward anything at all

Stuff like spotting (damage) does confer some rewards, but the net gain is less then direct damage and kills. One of the most often critisized aspects of the game.

Lots of carrier blatantly whine because they "only" have 80k damage in a 20minutes T10 game  and barely get 1k base xp ... while completely ignoring that they have 200k spotting damage, completely ruining the game for all enemy ships that rely on concealment and countering any form of flanking or ambush right from the start while also indirectly killing enemy ships (aka they force them to give broadside by making them evade the strike) .... and not even having a scratch on their paint job because they can spot and strike from absolute safety.

If actions like spotting would actually grant full XP, then the current carrier would on average have about as much base XP as half of their team combined.

But that is a problem that also plagues ships like DD who get equally nothing for spotting or contesting, but other then carrier they actually have to risk their ship to do it.

 

On 3/2/2019 at 12:21 PM, Beastofwar said:

But playing a CV i feel i hamper the team more then i can contribute. Not because i suck with CV but because i fight harder with nerf effects then against the enemy.

e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x

 

On 3/2/2019 at 5:32 PM, ulcusrodens said:

well, in my last battle (playing a GK), i got focused and took 16 torpedo hits by 2 carriers in a couple of minutes. one of them (a Midway) kept circling me with TBs, launching torpedoes each 30 seconds or something like that. in the process i managed to kill some plane, had to repair 5 floodings, used 2 HP reloads, and lost more or less 150% of my HP pool.

 

now please tell me what more would you like to be able to do with a single TB squadron (with the help of a tier 8 CV, of course). without being shot at, without losing a single HP and with the loss of few planes - immediately replaced. a 1 hit kill?

Pretty much that. In 1 of my lower games i played full AA Texas (T5) against a Hosho (T4) ...i killed 38 of his planes (the rest of my team killed another 12 combined) but in the end he killed me and I could never even shoot him. Yes he lost alot of planes, yes he wasted alot of time, but in the end he got the kill without even a scratch on his paintjob.

 

On 3/2/2019 at 7:00 PM, ulcusrodens said:

of course not. so why are you complaining about the MM as if it was a carrier related issue?

Because it effect carrier way harder then any other class. AA is completely automatic number crunching. If you are the top dog in your carrier, you can easily farm everyone because their AA values are too low, if you are bottom tier you basically lose the whole squad to strike once because their AA values are so nuts. Planes can not dodge ( at least the continuous DPS), planes cannot angle so 80% of 300dps shreds planes with 900HP and 3 planes per squad instantly while doing near nothing to planes with 15ooHP and 6 planes per squad (damage spreads across the whole squad, so more planes = less damage per plane), not including that higher tier planes are also alot faster meaning they spent less time in your AA to get a strike off.

 

On 3/2/2019 at 7:00 PM, ulcusrodens said:

that's why they'll never fix the MM, because in the end it brings more money than players who quit due to the frustration of being out tiered. or they would have fixed it ages ago, it's simple.

actually no. World of Warplanes is dying the second time now, World of Tanks is currently dying as well ... World of Warships might actually die as well if they continue like this. Wargaming isn't learning anything. By your logic they should have fixed the insane lags, freezing and crashes in the UI ages ago (as example) ....it's been more then 3 years and the UI actually got worse then it was in the beta. A better, more fluid game with smooth transition attracts more customers, a game that begs you to pay2win to get to T10 asap because T10 is the only playable Tier just bleeds players.

 

 

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On 3/2/2019 at 9:50 PM, Catslave said:

*edit*

 

First off yes ... what insane nerfs are you talking about ? Did the changes to radar effect your torpedo bomber aimbot ?

 

Second: strange how i can still see carriers dominating the game more then the remaining 11 plyers in their team.

 

But you seem to be 1 of those guys who enjoy getting 200k avg damage and 20+ K/D just for left clicking without realising the actual impact.

  1. Any half intelligent carrier can spot the whole enemy team in 90seconds or less .. any form of flanking, tactic or concealment completely use- and pointless.
  2. Because of >1 most DD are near defenseless since they have no chance of getting anywhere without having 200knots planes perma spotting them.
  3. Any half intelligent carrier can still (spot and) attack anyone anywhere on the map from whatever direction he chooses without risking his ship, disengaging or hiding behind cover like islands impossible.
  4. Any half intelligent carrier can easily force any other ship to choose: try to evade the carrier strike and give broadside to the enemy team or angle against the enemy and eat the strike
  5. Any half intelligent carrier can still easily get 100k+ spotting damage without even trying.

Even a T10 carrier doing 50k dmg and 50k spotting damage already performs above average,the "damage dealt" in the statistics isn't the all-important and all-deciding factor.

 

Either way i see enough carrier who can quite easily hit even a DD doing the crazy ivan (and even I do have some not too shabby accuracy despite having only 114 carrier games in nearly 5.2k total) , so if you can't hit anything then ... maybe gitgud ?

 

um ... why ? where ? It's a huge nerf to ship launched torpedoes since you have reload times of soimetimes 2minutes +. But it's a huge buff for carrier. A carrier can torp every 10-20seconds, a carrier can relatively easy aim for the nose/stern for seperate floodings since you drop the torpedoes nearly in their face. 2 floodings of the new mechanic do noticably more dmg then the old mechanic (at least against BB, battlecruiser etc)...quite possible for carrier, but it's insanely hard for a DD to hit the nose and stern within 40s

 

econds and impossible to torp every 40seconds (unless you are ultra low tier).

Like i said before. In 1 of my morning games i had 1DD, 1 cruiser and 2 carrier per side ... all T4. I ended up doing 30k damage in my hosho ... in a game with only 90k HP on the field to begin with. That was my first game with the reworked Hosho.

 

Rockets have like 1 second (or less ) travel time ... if you can't even hit with those... ... ...

 

True words.

Even with all those "nerfs" carrier are still [edited]overpowered, people just cry because they don't get devastating strikes for left clicking the auto drop anymore.

But the gameplay has become...bland. The new carrier is really nice and fun ... for 1 or 2 games. No tactics, no strategy, no disengaging and ambushing, no nothing .... just fly the super sonic planes towards the enemy and left click twice ...rinse and repeat. Doesn't matter which map, doesn't matter what ships are on the enemy team or your own, doesn't matter which game mode.

Actually no. The new "nerfed" carrier can spot the whole team in 60-90seconds, there have been alot of cases where players got literally spotted where they spawned and then annihilated by carrier strike + long range fire all the way to ships like yamato oneshotting someone who hasn't even reached max speed yet. The rework has dramatically increased the chance to just die in 3 minutes or less regardless of how good (or bad) you are.

 

Stuff like spotting (damage) does confer some rewards, but the net gain is less then direct damage and kills. One of the most often critisized aspects of the game.

Lots of carrier blatantly whine because they "only" have 80k damage in a 20minutes T10 game  and barely get 1k base xp ... while completely ignoring that they have 200k spotting damage, completely ruining the game for all enemy ships that rely on concealment and countering any form of flanking or ambush right from the start while also indirectly killing enemy ships (aka they force them to give broadside by making them evade the strike) .... and not even having a scratch on their paint job because they can spot and strike from absolute safety.

If actions like spotting would actually grant full XP, then the current carrier would on average have about as much base XP as half of their team combined.

But that is a problem that also plagues ships like DD who get equally nothing for spotting or contesting, but other then carrier they actually have to risk their ship to do it.

 

X for doubt.

 

Pretty much that. In 1 of my lower games i played full AA Texas (T5) against a Hosho (T4) ...i killed 38 of his planes (the rest of my team killed another 12 combined) but in the end he killed me and I could never even shoot him. Yes he lost alot of planes, yes he wasted alot of time, but in the end he got the kill without even a scratch on his paintjob.

 

Because it effect carrier way harder then any other class. AA is completely automatic number crunching. If you are the top dog in your carrier, you can easily farm everyone because their AA values are too low, if you are bottom tier you basically lose the whole squad to strike once because their AA values are so nuts. Planes can not dodge ( at least the continuous DPS), planes cannot angle so 80% of 300dps shreds planes with 900HP and 3 planes per squad instantly while doing near nothing to planes with 15ooHP and 6 planes per squad (damage spreads across the whole squad, so more planes = less damage per plane), not including that higher tier planes are also alot faster meaning they spent less time in your AA to get a strike off.

 

actually no. World of Warplanes is dying the second time now, World of Tanks is currently dying as well ... World of Warships might actually die as well if they continue like this. Wargaming isn't learning anything. By your logic they should have fixed the insane lags, freezing and crashes in the UI ages ago (as example) ....it's been more then 3 years and the UI actually got worse then it was in the beta. A better, more fluid game with smooth transition attracts more customers, a game that begs you to pay2win to get to T10 asap because T10 is the only playable Tier just bleeds players.

 

 

 

Started reading the first couple of lines...

 

*talks about spotting 

*talks about attacking DDs

*talks about permaspotting

 

Looked at Stats

 

*guy hides his stats

 

 

oooooooookaaaayyyyy

 

 

Clearly you haven’t played CVs since the three hotnerf festivals 0.8.0.1-.03 at all 

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12 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Started reading the first couple of lines...

 

*talks about spotting 

*talks about attacking DDs

*talks about permaspotting

 

Looked at Stats

 

*guy hides his stats

 

 

oooooooookaaaayyyyy

 

 

Clearly you haven’t played CVs since the three hotnerf festivals 0.8.0.1-.03 at all 

My stats are private because I grew tired of guys stroking their epeen because they got 0.1% higher WR thanks to their 3man divisions. Seems like you are part of that group.

Beside I give a .I.. about that (at least by now).

Clearly ? Seems like you have a crystal ball ? Like i said I don't really have much games in carrier, my first rework game on live was after the first "balancing patch", my last game was ... around 5 or 6 hours ago. I also have in the range of 600ish games since the rework with surface ships, often with 2 or 3 carriers per team. But according to your "logic" one couldn't possible judge the effect and efficiency of carriers from being on the recieving end...

I did better in the old carriers (ok, i have like 10times as many games in those), but then again the new are more consistent ... i no longer have to fear a better carrier player on the enemy team completely shutting me down and deplaning me and the nerfs to AA make life somewhat easier as well... As much as i hated the old mechanic, at the very least it was alot more fun and entertaining then the rework...

 

Whatever .. if you can't give any construktive feedback without some easily "adjustable" epeen stats then there is no point in talking to you anyway.

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41 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Started reading the first couple of lines...

 

*talks about spotting 

*talks about attacking DDs

*talks about permaspotting

 

Looked at Stats

 

*guy hides his stats

 

 

oooooooookaaaayyyyy

 

 

Clearly you haven’t played CVs since the three hotnerf festivals 0.8.0.1-.03 at all 

Fortunately for us, his clan statistics are open for anyone to consult and yeah, it's just as expected: [PIPI_] has an overall WR of 48,56%. But wait there is more!

Now I've never claimed to be good at maths but given his stats are the only one hidden in his clan I think we can get his WR like this:

 

( 46.9 + 51.76 + 53.06 +X)/4=48.56

                            

(48.56*4)-(46.9+51.76+53.06)=X

 

X = 42,52%

So yeah... It was pretty obvious he has no idea of what he's talking about just from that comment but this pretty much confirms it

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1 hour ago, Catslave said:

My stats are private because I grew tired of guys stroking their epeen because they got 0.1% higher WR thanks to their 3man divisions. Seems like you are part of that group.

Beside I give a .I.. about that (at least by now).

Clearly ? Seems like you have a crystal ball ? Like i said I don't really have much games in carrier, my first rework game on live was after the first "balancing patch", my last game was ... around 5 or 6 hours ago. I also have in the range of 600ish games since the rework with surface ships, often with 2 or 3 carriers per team. But according to your "logic" one couldn't possible judge the effect and efficiency of carriers from being on the recieving end...

I did better in the old carriers (ok, i have like 10times as many games in those), but then again the new are more consistent ... i no longer have to fear a better carrier player on the enemy team completely shutting me down and deplaning me and the nerfs to AA make life somewhat easier as well... As much as i hated the old mechanic, at the very least it was alot more fun and entertaining then the rework...

 

Whatever .. if you can't give any construktive feedback without some easily "adjustable" epeen stats then there is no point in talking to you anyway.

 

Dude, you should display your stats, revel in them they are yours and only yours...  no one can take them away from you, hiding them denies you of being yourself.... come on buddy if you suck that badly at least revel in it....

 

Oh and the give away was the "thanks to their 3man divisions"....... you are in a clan (well sort of) and should be able to find a buddy to division up with (or maybe 2) unless you are that pillock whom the whole clan hates, or the one who refuses to come onto whatever comms your clan uses.... sound familiar? well time to gitgud my friend !!!!

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26 minutes ago, cherry2blost said:

 

Dude, you should display your stats, revel in them they are yours and only yours...  no one can take them away from you, hiding them denies you of being yourself.... come on buddy if you suck that badly at least revel in it....

 

Oh and the give away was the "thanks to their 3man divisions"....... you are in a clan (well sort of) and should be able to find a buddy to division up with (or maybe 2) unless you are that pillock whom the whole clan hates, or the one who refuses to come onto whatever comms your clan uses.... sound familiar? well time to gitgud my friend !!!!

That last part is a pretty sad statement on your part, saying alot about you tbh....

...or maybe it is a Clan i founded together with some friends from IRL ( I hope you have ever heard about that) and the others have quit quite a while ago ? Ever considered that not every Clan consists of some dozen guys who got nothing better to do then bunching together to spend endless hours on farming epeen points to define their existence (how else to describe someone who has played nearly 15k random games in ~3.5years?) ?

 

 

Either way I'm past the age where i need imaginary lolipoints to define myself. At the very best they serve some purpose to give me some feedback on how I do with a specific ship, ship type or armament.

But if it makes you feel any better: my average WR is several % below yours, but then again i dont have several hundred or even thousand games in Kamikaze, Kutuzov, Nikolai, Fuso ....

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Why do you need to have super unicum stats or high winrates to have right to speak ? Or to complain ?

 

In fact someone that adresses being hindered by nerfs much could not have super unicum stats or high winrates because he is hindered by the nerfs......

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12 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Why do you need to have super unicum stats or high winrates to have right to speak ? Or to complain ?

 

In fact someone that adresses being hindered by nerfs much could not have super unicum stats or high winrates because he is hindered by the nerfs......

People has the right to complain, nobody ever denied that. But at the same time people have the right to look for info about the source of those comments and based on that give them their due value. It's not the same considering the opinion of a professional athlete or an amateur jogger. Besides, he wasn't complaining about the state of CVs in the first place.

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9 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

Why do you need to have super unicum stats or high winrates to have right to speak ? Or to complain ?

 

In fact someone that adresses being hindered by nerfs much could not have super unicum stats or high winrates because he is hindered by the nerfs......

 

9 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

People has the right to complain, nobody ever denied that. But at the same time people have the right to look for info about the source of those comments and based on that give them their due value. It's not the same considering the opinion of a professional athlete or an amateur jogger. Besides, he wasn't complaining about the state of CVs in the first place.

Pretty much that. The OP complains that only he himself fails to produce noteworthy results right now, completely ignoring the possibility of him adapting to it as well as the undeniable fact that the top ~20% carrier players still outperform all other ships (oft by impressive margins) despite all those "oh so incredibly crippling nerfs". It's kinda like an armless guy complaining that he can't win a boxing championship...

 

Just because you can't hit anything with carrier does not mean that everyone can't hit ... aka it doesn't mean that carriers are too weak.

Pre rework my carrier stats/games were .... moderate, it's not like i completely failed, but i didn't break any records either. Doesn't mean I considered carrier too weak, on the contrary. Because as the one on the recieving end I could clearly see what carriers are capable off when played by people who know what they are doing.

That much didn't change. I have way too few reworked carrier games to say anything about whether I am better or worse now (and carrier bores me so hard, it's gonna take a while to gather a sufficent sample size). But just from playing against them i can easily see that the core problem remains. The only thing that changed is: even a complete bottom level carrier player now ruins the game. The deciding factor is that the superior carrier player no longer has any means to shut down the inferior player and it is no longer possible to deplane a carrier. I have seen carriers with "interesting" stats like a midway with an average of <10k damage over 50+ games,but even without trying he easily has an average of 10+ spotting ribbons and 50k+ spotting damage. 

You don't get any noteworthy rewards for that and most people completely ignore that blindly whining about how they no longer get devastating strikes by just auto dropping.

 

Others whine that they no longer get easy 30k+ damage per attack run, completely ignoring that the old carrier would strike once every 2-3 Minutes because the planes had to return, land (1squad at a time), rearm, launch (1 squad at a time) and travel back to the victim .... while now the carrier strikes every 10-20seconds up to 4 times in a row -  then starts a new squad without any downtime which will continue to strike you in less then 1 minute, all that while perma-spotting you so his team can bury you under tons of shells.

Pre rework a single Midway squad could start a maximum of 1 floodings or 4 fires (nose, stern, 2x superstructure) while the post prework can start 16 fires ( 4 runs with 6 fires/bombs each but a ship can't have more then 4 fires) or 6 floodings (3 strikes with 6 torps each, potentially able to cause 2 floodings on a single target). Carriers plainly have shifted from being a plague (instant death) to being cancer (slowly torturing to death) ... the end result is the same.

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All I can say is, CAPTAINS, we're all wasting our time with this CV Rework - WG has proved yet again that they don't know what they're doing, and the balancing they're implementing just makes it worse and worse!
... I just wonder when WG will wake up and realize how much they've fucked up the game's state by implementing this CV rework and then keep doing bad balance updates, over and over - when WG, WHEN?

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13 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And if you're lifespan is 2 minutes, you're doing it wrong.

 

9 hours ago, Catslave said:

Actually no.

Is this a fact according to you? You're making up excuses and writing up a whole essay just so you can disagree with me or something? 

 

I don't really care about the rest you wrote as it had hardly anything to do with economics.

 

Apparently I've gotten (yes I rechecked a couple older games) very little spotting damage when I was Shokaku in bottom tier. Usually teammates either don't shoot what I spot or my planes don't last long enough to be able to get any spotting damage in. I don't know exactly, but 100k spotting damage and 80k regular damage games from a bottom tier carrier? Are you for real? Or are you just making stuff up here?

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11 hours ago, Catslave said:

Seems like you are part of that group.

 

I am not. But your comments indicate you are not playing CVs yourself bud.

 

See the problem is that currently neither CVs nor targets are happy. WG Managed to piss off both sides - that’s an achievement by itself 

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On 3/1/2019 at 3:18 PM, wilkatis_LV said:

Yes, your practically nonexistant flood chance will now set shorter duration but actually sticking floods. What a nerf :fish_palm:

This is BS and you know it. Even with all the nerfs, CVs were still the one class capable of somewhat reliably (depended on RNG quite a bit but not on the enemy being a complete potato) inflicting "permafloods". Now inflicting flooding isn't any easier than it was but its worth is more comparable to a single stack of fire than to the old flooding.

A severe nerf to flooding damage coupled with severe nerf to floodign duration is a nerf no matter what mental gymnastics you try to apply to "prove" that just because it's now so weak that people might end up ignoring it instead of controlling it instantly :Smile_sceptic:

 

There could've been some room for discussion if CV flooding chance was actually reasonably high (giving you a reasonable chance to stick a permanent DOUBLE flooding on a BB) but - as you yourself mentioned - the chance is pretty low. The chances of a double flooding are miniscule, the option to force a DCP is gone and as long as we're talking one flooding at a time... well, the new floodings just aren't "actually sticking" as you claim. What they are is "potentially ignored due to how little damage they actually do even if you let them".

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On 3/3/2019 at 7:51 AM, NothingButTheRain said:

I don't really care about the rest you wrote as it had hardly anything to do with economics.

 

Apparently I've gotten (yes I rechecked a couple older games) very little spotting damage when I was Shokaku in bottom tier. Usually teammates either don't shoot what I spot or my planes don't last long enough to be able to get any spotting damage in

I'm sorry, i didn't know that the balance and impact of a class is solely based on it's economics. Simply because WG doesn't reward you obviously means it's completely unimportant and fine that you accidently drive-by spot a DD resulting in him loosing 50%+ of his HP within 2 minutes or less of the game or him having to turn and run because now the enemy knows where he is and where he is going...my bad.

 

 

Never said bottom tier carrier was overly enjoyable, never was. And spotting damage, for better or worse, is damage done by your team ... so the amount of spotting damage you get credited for heavily depends on how blind and tunnel visioned they are. Your planes not lasting long in +2 AA auras is nothing new (and not related to the OP complaining about the new nerfs in the latest patch/es) but that is to some degree the same problem DD's have against radar ... there is nothing you can do against it, all you can do is play around it and hope your team makes themselves useful. I have seen enough people do it with acceptable success, granted I myself am not exactly successful at it (yet ?).

 

And you still miss some vital points:

  1. you do force the enemy to bunch up
  2. you do force the enemy to manouver, potentially resulting in them ramming each other, grounding or giving broadside to your teammates
  3. even if you only do a short fly by spotting, you still spot the current position and their bearing for your whole team

 

On 3/3/2019 at 9:33 AM, 1MajorKoenig said:

I am not. But your comments indicate you are not playing CVs yourself bud.

 

See the problem is that currently neither CVs nor targets are happy. WG Managed to piss off both sides - that’s an achievement by itself 

*edit*

 

It's not like have said more then once that i have very little games in carrier. Great job noticing that mystery. And again obviously one couldn't possibly judge a class based on playing against it all day .... naturally all ships and classes should be solely balanced around the goal that you reliably farm good damage and credits no matter what you face - everything else and everyone else is unimportant.

 

And carriers have not been happy since WG removed Tora Tora Tora.

The rework is garbage, many players, testers and CC have been foretelling that since the first gameplay trailers. The most important thing is that WG actually managed to achieve that even the "carrier mains" agree for once. Looking at the crap WG has been pulling lately (not only in wows) that is hardly an achievement ... after all the Arty rework in WoT some time ago is almost exactly the same...as example.

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On 3/3/2019 at 10:08 AM, Catslave said:

I'm sorry, i didn't know that the balance and impact of a class is solely based on it's economics. Simply because WG doesn't reward you obviously means it's completely unimportant and fine that you accidently drive-by spot a DD resulting in him loosing 50%+ of his HP within 2 minutes or less of the game or him having to turn and run because now the enemy knows where he is and where he is going...my bad.

 

 

Never said bottom tier carrier was overly enjoyable, never was. And spotting damage, for better or worse, is damage done by your team ... so the amount of spotting damage you get credited for heavily depends on how blind and tunnel visioned they are. Your planes not lasting long in +2 AA auras is nothing new (and not related to the OP complaining about the new nerfs in the latest patch/es) but that is to some degree the same problem DD's have against radar ... there is nothing you can do against it, all you can do is play around it and hope your team makes themselves useful. I have seen enough people do it with acceptable success, granted I myself am not exactly successful at it (yet ?).

 

And you still miss some vital points:

  1. you do force the enemy to bunch up
  2. you do force the enemy to manouver, potentially resulting in them ramming each other, grounding or giving broadside to your teammates
  3. even if you only do a short fly by spotting, you still spot the current position and their bearing for your whole team

 

*edit*

 

It's not like have said more then once that i have very little games in carrier. Great job noticing that mystery. And again obviously one couldn't possibly judge a class based on playing against it all day .... naturally all ships and classes should be solely balanced around the goal that you reliably farm good damage and credits no matter what you face - everything else and everyone else is unimportant.

 

And carriers have not been happy since WG removed Tora Tora Tora.

The rework is garbage, many players, testers and CC have been foretelling that since the first gameplay trailers. The most important thing is that WG actually managed to achieve that even the "carrier mains" agree for once. Looking at the crap WG has been pulling lately (not only in wows) that is hardly an achievement ... after all the Arty rework in WoT some time ago is almost exactly the same...as example.

 

Problem is as you haven’t played it yourself you can’t judge it. Currently AA is far too powerful for example but you can’ know this.

 

So there is no point in discussing this with you - and I don’t mean this on a personal level. 

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7 minutes ago, Catslave said:

I'm sorry, i didn't know that the balance and impact of a class is solely based on it's economics.

You did know that the economics part was I was talking about.

Quote

Simply because WG doesn't reward you obviously means it's completely unimportant

Don't bother to go narcisticstyle on me.

Quote

and fine that you accidently drive-by spot a DD resulting in him loosing 50%+ of his HP within 2 minutes or less of the game or him having to turn and run because now the enemy knows where he is and where he is going...my bad.

You're overreacting here.

 

I decided to skip the rest of your rant once I saw you went in with a meme instead of going in with more common sense.

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5 minutes ago, eliastion said:

There could've been some room for discussion if CV flooding chance was actually reasonably high (giving you a reasonable chance to stick a permanent DOUBLE flooding on a BB) but - as you yourself mentioned - the chance is pretty low. The chances of a double flooding are miniscule, the option to force a DCP is gone and as long as we're talking one flooding at a time... well, the new floodings just aren't "actually sticking" as you claim. What they are is "potentially ignored due to how little damage they actually do even if you let them".

The chance to actually cause a flood (or double) is still higher for carrier then for surface ships.

Surface ships drop from 6km+ range, the torps are in the water for 1minute+ making hitting very hard (unless the target is braindead...then nvm),Surface ships have abysmally long reload times on the torps (up to nearly 3 minutes).

Carrier drop torpedos into their face, the time between drop and torpedo hit can easily be less then your victims rudder shift. Hitting or not hitting mostly depends on the carrier player.

 

For low level I agree it's a nerf ... e.g. hosho dropping 1 torp doesn't really compare to some low lvl DD dropping ~6 torps every 30 seconds. But higher level e.g. Midway can drop 6 torps every 20seconds or less.

The chance to actually cause a flood with an air dropped torp is sad, but at least higher tiers make up with volume.  And you still deal 20% max HP per flood ( to BB and battle cruiser) while taking away their mobility making follow up hits easier.

The nerf still hits surface ships way harder. But i am sorry that WG removed your ability to deal 60% max HP in damage just because you randomly got lucky on the 1 torp that hit (or instantly forcing a damage con allowing you to set as amany perma fires as you want for equal damage).

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12 hours ago, OVanBruce said:

Fortunately for us, his clan statistics are open for anyone to consult and yeah, it's just as expected: [PIPI_] has an overall WR of 48,56%. But wait there is more!

Now I've never claimed to be good at maths but given his stats are the only one hidden in his clan I think we can get his WR like this:

 

( 46.9 + 51.76 + 53.06 +X)/4=48.56

                            

(48.56*4)-(46.9+51.76+53.06)=X

 

X = 42,52%

So yeah... It was pretty obvious he has no idea of what he's talking about just from that comment but this pretty much confirms it

I'm glad you have never claimed to be good at maths. You bascially calculate under the assumption that all members have the same amount of games played.

Using inherintly wrong math as proof ..good job. And i'm sorry that everyone who doesn't agree that the most overpowered and broken ship class needs more buffs "obviously has no idea" ....

 

 

Also not sure how WG calculates the clan WR (or other stats) either. Only a single Clan member even has below 50% WR. But feel free to apply your math to your own clan and tell us the result.

 

EDIT: On a sidenote: thanks for proofing my point. We already have 3(?) guys who got nothing better to do then to shame stats they don't even know while completely ignoring the topic or any argument brought forth. One of them even going to the stats page before reading the post.

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28 minutes ago, Catslave said:

The chance to actually cause a flood (or double) is still higher for carrier then for surface ships. 

Oh, sure. Mostly because the majority of the latter don't even have torpedoes :Smile_trollface:

But more seriously - how is what you're going on about even relevant. Surface torped-users got screwed with the patch too, yes. Doesn't change the fact that CVs received a heavy nerf here. And if someone claims that a combined damage and duration nerf isn't a nerf, I'm going to laugh in their faces. No, just because the damage becomes pitiful enough that it can (and on occasion will) be ignored doesn't change the fact that it's a nerf. Just like suddenly granting all DDs 50k+ hp pools would be a buff despite the fact that they would end up suffering more damage as a result.

 

28 minutes ago, Catslave said:

The nerf still hits surface ships way harder.

Actually, it doesn't. Not by a long shot. Surface ships treat floodings as a nice bonus but what they actually rely on is the torpedo alpha damage. CVs - much more capable of inflicting "permafloods" despite the low flooding chance (since they have more control over who and when they hit with their torps) - rely on DoT to much larger degree... so, quite obviously, the hit to DoT capability of torpedoes affects them that much harder.

 

 

PS: I've read through your comments in this thread. Do you even play CVs at all? Or DDs, for that matter, at least to a 45%+ WR level of competency? Because most of what you're writing - be it about the situation of DDs or power of CVs - is simply false AT LEAST since the 0.8.0.3.

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32 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

You did know that the economics part was I was talking about.

Economics are no reason to call for buffs of the class or similar.

It is a well known fact that WG mainly rewards unimportant things. Farming 200k HE damage on a conqueror without even killing him nets more xp then killing a DD or contesting a cap ... wargaming logic.

This along with the nerf to carrier rewards is a topic completely unrelated to the strength of the ship since even above average carrier players struggle breaking even without premium, flags and/or camo (mostly on higher tiers) ... which is again not really a new issues that came with the rework.

 

There is already a different thread where someone posts a few numbers on how he actually has to pay to play carriers (aka making losses):

 

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33 minutes ago, eliastion said:

Actually, it doesn't. Surface ships treat floodings as a nice bonus but what they actually rely on is the torpedo alpha damage. CVs - much more capable of inflicting "permafloods" despite the low flooding chance - rely on DoT to much larger degree... so, quite obviously, the hit to DoT capability of torpedoes affects them that much harder.

There are enough surface ships (or at least player) who use torps to force damage con to set permafires. As you and others noted flooding usually did close to no damage because people would instantly damage con them.

Not arguing that (at least ideally) the torpedo alpha would/should do the job.

Still getting a flooding with a surface ship is reasonably easy (if you hit torpedoes) and it used to be ~60% HP. Now with the change it still is reasonably easy to get 1 flood, hitting nose and arse in 1 torpedo volley is unrealistic though. That 1 flood only does 20% damage (note: BB's) as well and renewing the flood every 40 seconds is not really possible for surface ships. With that flooding damage has become nearly completely unimportant for the surface ships.

 

The carrier torps have alot less downtime between . Now I assume we agree that the avg flood chance on carrier torps makes for a good meme at best, but you still have a chance and the torpedoes are easier to hit (player ability assumed).

The "nerf" to the flooding might actually benefit carrier in some way: player won't necessarily instantly damage con every flooding leading to more flooding hits actually causing damage .. but that remains to be seen. At the very least that part is not a nerf, my average flooding damage per flood so far is probably sub 10k  because the 1flooding i set with a torpedo volley got almost instantly repaired (and the average flooding damage i have taken so far is way below the fire damage as well).

Either way i can't actually remember seeing any decent carrier player banking on flooding to do the damage ... and in my (granted few) carrier games i never did either.

 

33 minutes ago, eliastion said:

PS: I've read through your comments in this thread. Do yo even play CVs at all?

 

That alone proves you haven't.

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Just now, Catslave said:

There are enough surface ships (or at least player) who use torps to force damage con to set permafires.

Surface ships that actually care for permafires usually force damage con by setting many fires in the first place.

 

1 minute ago, Catslave said:

As you and others noted flooding usually did close to no damage because people would instantly damage con them.

Mostly when it was the "stray" flooding from a destroyer. A CV, unlike most DDs (there are some exceptions), can actually attempt to inflict a permanent flooding by repeatedly torping the same target. This relied on luck (due to abysmal flooding chances), yes, but it was actually doable, since you basically needed to get lucky only twice: once for the initial flooding and then for the struggle to inflict the second one to be successful.

 

For DDs inflicting floodings was a bonus on top of great alpha. For CVs - one of the important sources of damage (especially considering how underwhelming the alpha of airdropped torpedoes is in the first place). What's more, DDs very rarely inflicted permanent floodings (even when hitting multiple torps, they more often than not hit all of them pretty much simultaneously). CVs were capable of doing that on a semi-regular basis (because the very nature of CV gameplay right now implies staggered attack in several waves - incidentally the perfect set-up to try and inflict permanent DoT source). It's really obvious who the flooding nerf hits harder.

 

9 minutes ago, Catslave said:

The "nerf" to the flooding might actually benefit carrier in some way: player won't necessarily instantly damage con every flooding leading to more flooding hits actually causing damage .. but that remains to be seen.

"One of your weapons was reworked so that it became so laughable that nobody will bother to take countermeasures, this will let it deal damage in more situations... wait, why aren't you happy?"

It takes a special kind of mind to see a rework that limits DPS severely AND cuts down the duration... and feel that "nerf" needs quotation marks as if it wasn't quite obvious if it's actually a nerf or not :Smile_facepalm:

 

14 minutes ago, Catslave said:

Either way i can't actually remember seeing any decent carrier player banking on flooding to do the damage ... and in my (granted few) carrier games i never did either.

Well, then you either paid little attention to decent carrier players or your memory is poor. Flooding had been a significant chunk of CV damage. It was relevant even after all the flooding chance nerfs. The fact that you personally never managed to take advantage of that... well, it's a pity, I guess?

 

27 minutes ago, Catslave said:

 

1 hour ago, eliastion said:

PS: I've read through your comments in this thread. Do you even play CVs at all?

That alone proves you haven't.

Well, if you have, then why are so many of your statements so completely disconnected from the current state of the meta in general and CVs in particular? You're basically talking about the stereotypes (CVs being the deciding factor in the matches, DDs unable to do anything, omnipresent permaspotting) that just don't seem to be the case in the actual game, be it observed from the point of view of a CV or a destroyer.

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It is well that WG has data with which to assess the facts, because as it stands CV players are at risk of making them seem unplayable and surface ship players are going out of their way to make them seem OP.

 

Balance is going to be nearly impossible. I've always been a DD main, I play a few BB games but prefer speed and engagement to dying while my fellow BB's hide. I've tried CV's briefly before patch on NA and played about 50 games across the rework on EU. The forum is about as divided as the US is politically or the UK is from a Brexit perspective so it's impossible to tell who's sharing feedback and who's just peddling nonsense in an effort to weaken a class they dislike.

 

Obvious issues seem to be easily spotted, but the flame and counter flame is reaching levels of hostility. CV players complaining are shot down (no pun intended) by surface ships players and anything close to a complaint about CV strength is torpedoed (Sorry!) by CV mains who want superiority also.

 

DD's are an easy target for rockets before they can even enter a cap, and that's with plane speeds below real-world levels. Spotting has been eliminated and effectiveness must feel neutered so any DD perspective is anti-CV by default. DD's can no longer rush a  cap, certainly not without close support, but are reported and chat abused while bigger ships hide behind islands and skirt the map. Of course they hate CV's, not withstanding it's now harder to hunt them so CV survival has significantly increased. DD mains are never going to be anything other than pro-nerf where CV is concerned.

 

BB's hate everything anyway and have already cried their way to the rape of IJN DD capability, fire nerfs and umpteen new methods of fire control, now to be followed by zero risk of flooding out. It's as if the only acceptable method of BB death is to other BB guns (as long as they aren't RN guns). The game has two de-facto meta. Sailing along the back and up the sides usually in the outer two rows of the map, or simply blobbing together but usually behind an object they can't shoot through. Either way, BB main input on CV's isn't going to be anything other than paranoia and vilification.

 

CA's seem torn between complaining they can't shoot anything down even with DFAA or complaining there are no planes to shoot whilst there are clear motives for both complaints.

 

For CV's I'm seeing 2 CV in almost every game, and usually one at least. I've only had two CV-less games in 40, but the forum seems to be full of people suggesting there are no CV's. This is either a Tier MM pattern in that I play between T4 & 7 as a newish player and that T8-T10 is where the boycott lies, or where the challenge seems too great to try. Or there CV players attempting to drive a narrative that no one plays any more in the vain hope of reversion to RTS or a cessation to the endless nerfs.

It's obvious that +2/-2 MM is hated by everyone anyway, but evident that current CV balance versus AA leads to an even less enjoyable experience for down tiered CV's and melting sqdns is simply not fun or engaging.

 

Might be an idea if WG had a separate PT for CV changes and a private forum in which rational and constructive players and commentators were invited to participate. Not just experienced CV mains but some people who've never played them to get the perspective of non-RTS bias? Tighter control group, players made to use all ship types, data gathered away from the shambles of the admittedly unhelpful current PT where people don't play as they would.

 

Meh.. I don't know. Just thoughts and likely to induce flame from the parties who feel defensive enough to lash out, but either way, the forums and feedback are as divided and broken as the gameplay and experience.

 

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My point was never up or down damage.....i don't wish for overpowered damage output. I do wish for a positieve credit outcome though....CV is much too low compared to other ships. Only that would have you overperform to compensate. 

 

My point is the way WG chose to nerf enjoyability and satisfying gameplay for CV players. It has become unenjoyable. Not because of damned stats i do not care about or domination. Only to not struggle with nerfs that work against you performing a simple attack, and were not there in the first place. And are of a extremely poor quality, they even seem slapped on in panic by someone other then a game designer.

 

Nerfs not being able to shoot at DD after spotting them or coming around for another pass but with it being able to shoot at all successive targets after having attacked the first one. The whole point to the design NOT being able to release all weapons in one pass ( as it was in RTS ) but having to come around for another pass in UNDONE by not being able to fire when you come around for another pass !! The design feature now has become failed. But an important thing to consider it this does not become appareant until Tier 8 !  There is no fire delay at Tier 4. At Tier 6 it is there but softer. At tier 8 it is game play hampering. At tier 10 ? You tell me....i don't have Tier 10 yet...

 

No BB player would like a block preventing him to fire when he's fully aimed and shells are in the barrel. No DD player would have a block to launch when the tubers are aimed and torpedo's are in the tubes.....

 

Be sure to read what i highlighted, think about that deeply, but i you do not/can not and come with $%#^& stats [edited] again, stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

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