reworking of the harugumo dd line ( sugestion) tier 8+

[Flavio1997]

now, after playing ranked and randoms with all the ship of the line, i  think that those ships are a bit unfair against the enemy, with kitakaze coming close to being op, as it is both powerful, relatively stealthy and agile.

 

what i'm talking about when i say "unfair" i mean:

at the start of the match, if both the dds on both sides are going for the cap, by the time one spot the other, and the less powerful dd ( so everything else at their tier) has the chance of doing an u turn, they are dead.

For the akizuki and kita is even more pronounced because:

-the aki encounters those poor tier 6's and 7's without the slot 5 concealment module, that you not only termonuke in firepower, but even outspot

-the kita has very respectable concealment, so usually, you get spotted at the same time that you spot the enemy, or very close to it ( thanks to the distances compression of this game)

-harugumo is somewhat more balanced, but it has insane firepower, and if i can rush a shima with a daring, that has similar concealment, harugumo can do the same.

at 12 kms they can easily win a battle against the light cruisers who should be his counter ( i know, the light cruiser can stealth up, hoping that no other torp dd is spotting him), or heavy cruiser with slow shell velocity, that's imho too much.

 

Even stats wise they are always in the 2nd spot ( not counting the asashio's), either behind the ru line ( that usually farm bbs, so useless damage) or the uk dds ( even they imho a bit too strong, especially the lightning).

 

what i would do in this regard?

-nerf the concealment across the line of about 0.5 to 1 kms ( closer to 1km imho, they should be around the 7 kms mark), to make them more in line with the ru dds and not be able to rush a dd so efficiently as they do now.

-swap the TRB with def aa, as those ship were born with anti air capabilities in mind and the TRB gives them the advantage of both a gunboat and a torpedo boat, and that's imho stupid

 

also some buff

-maybe tune up a bit the agility of those ships, especially the tier 8 and 10 ( i'm still thinking about it)

-remove the full ap pen for Harugumo. This had been a very lazy and stupid design choice from wg: khabarosk had kept that rule because it has the armour to bounce those shells when properly angled, and as such it should have also the drawbacks of it ( arming those shells if they penetrate). But harugumo received this treatment because WG knew that it was  an op ship and so they have indirectly nerf it this way,  and as i said above, this is lazy design

 

what do you think?

 

 

[NoirLotus]

I would rather remove Harugumo, put Kitakaze at T10 (with a few buffs), put Akizuki at T9 (with a better agility) and make a new T8.

[ColonelPete]

If you get sunk in one turn, you are doing it wrong.

While the ships are indeed powerful, I do not see a reason to increase their concealment yet.

The ships are easy targets and very hard to use outside smoke.

[LemonadeWarrior]

Kitakaze can use a slight concealment nerf indeed.

 

I think all DDs should have acces to the concealment mod upgrade, or make the lower tiers uneffected by this.

[Redcap375]

3 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

The ships are easy targets and very hard to use outside smoke.

 

Regarding the Harra, Please tell me your joking.

 

Half of the time i don't even need smoke to melt 3/4 of the targets i'm coming up against.  Having smoke is just a massive bonus to a different level.

 

The only thing you really have to worry about is not being KO'd in your own smoke.  So do a 5/10 checks and your ok. 

 

1) Has he got fast reload (-9 secs)? Nope, then let the slaughter begin. 

2) has he got fast turret rotation? Nope, let the slaughter begin.

3) does he have radar? Nope, let the slaughter begin. 

 

I'm not a DD player really, but even i can get this to shin in my trotters.  It's takes nerves of steel not to panic and flee when you have HE IFHE shells coming in every 2- 2.2 secs. Fleeing cruisers loose the majority of their fire powever pegging it away (ok, so not the roon Lol).

 

Wanna rush? Fine, i'll just drop these 10 torps into your general direction (with reload). It's crazy.

 

I am loving this DD (the other one being the KIDD). Infact, all of this line has been really fun to play. 

 

The Harra is a DD like the Grad is a CA, it isn't. That's why i probably like the line to be honest, there not really DD's but keep the majority of the "good points" that DD's have. 

[Excavatus]

More than a year ago,
we were fantasizing about the game.. on discord..

I was playing the mino and just said,
I just one thing for mino.. just one tiny thing... nothing more..
It is HE...

clanmates said... yeah yeah! HE with that reload.. you are insane :)

we giggled.. and somebody said,

While you are at it.. just remove the citadel then... that would be a perfect ship :)

 

Yeah..

today..

We have Harugumo..

 

Nice :)

[DariusJacek]

13 minuty temu, Excavatus napisał:

More than a year ago,
we were fantasizing about the game.. on discord..

I was playing the mino and just said,
I just one thing for mino.. just one tiny thing... nothing more..
It is HE...

clanmates said... yeah yeah! HE with that reload.. you are insane :)

we giggled.. and somebody said,

While you are at it.. just remove the citadel then... that would be a perfect ship :)

 

Yeah..

today..

We have Harugumo..

 

Nice :)

No hydro and super heal. Pls buff

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Redcap375 said:

 

Regarding the Harra, Please tell me your joking.

 

This is no 1v1 game.

Nearly every enemy with line of sight in 15 km can hit you. And your firepower usually cannot make up for 1v2+.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

The first thing to do would be to remove their "special" HE shell penetration, reducing it to regular 100mm or whatever levels.

 

And give them Def AA consumable instead.

[Redcap375]

27 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

This is no 1v1 game.

Nearly every enemy with line of sight in 15 km can hit you. And your firepower usually cannot make up for 1v2+.

 

Good, because if it was then the Harra would have a field day one on one with most targets it comes up against. 

 

However, I did wonder why there was 11 other players in my team but don't normally see them in the game. 

 

I'll just tell that to the Woster, Des and Mino trying to hit me at a distance of 15 km...Providing they can see me in this smoke i'm sitting in or dodging the 10 torps from a distance of 12 km.  Or simply avoiding fire from everywere as there trying to hit me.  You see the shoe also fits on the other foot.  No cruiser wants to be constantly firing in the open as their bigger targets than the Harra.  

 

I didn't even mention what Harra AP does to a broadside Mino which i found amusing. 

 

It's fitting in well with the CV rework too as it's AA is very good for a DD and concealment means less with planes buzzing over head. It should have Defensive AA really and get rid of the 32mm pen thing (stupid). 

 

I am really liking this DD and defo a keeper. I remember posting in a thread when it first came out about how much i didn't like the principle of the thing, which i still don't (no DD should be able to pen 32 mm of deck armour) and thought it was very very strong.

 

I am surprises that it's middle of the pack regarding WG stats (YY, Daring and Kaba is above it), but just beaten by the Kaba on damage. 

 

From a non DD player really, i love it.

 

 

 

[Bunny_Lover_Kallen]

8 minutes ago, Nautical_Metaphor said:

The first thing to do would be to remove their "special" HE shell penetration, reducing it to regular 100mm or whatever levels.

 

And give them Def AA consumable instead.

And turn it into a complete garbage heap, because the 100 mm 1/4 pen is basically what it has going for it and not much else.

 

Lulzily enough, this would not even adress the point of the thread creator, as the special pen matters not in DD vs DD fights.

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

1....Providing they can see me in this smoke i'm sitting in or dodging the 10 torps from a distance of 12 km.  

...

2 I am surprises that it's middle of the pack regarding WG stats (YY, Daring and Kaba is above it), but just beaten by the Kaba on damage. 

1. That is why I wrote about being outside smoke...

2. As I said, she is an easy target outside smoke and her damage potential is mostly dependent on smoke use. Outside smoke her survivalbility while shooting is quite low, unless you find a suitable island and a spotter. Many players get their Haragumo sunk too early because of this.

[hgbn_dk]

They still eat full BB ap penetrations so

[Flavio1997]

8 minutes ago, hgbn_dk said:

They still eat full BB ap penetrations so

Omly harugumo does

[Animalul2012]

Nerf them like they did with khaba! remover torpedo reload booster, normal 1/6 pen WHY? because RN dds get that as well! range decrease to 11.4km, reduce torpedo range to 10km! increase concealment to minimum of 7.1! But wg wont do it because they are scared of anime fanboys. and then you find you out they nerfed khabarovsk a soviet ship into oblivion! almost NOBODY plays khabarovsk, yueyang and z-52( german dds need buffs as well) the matchmaking is full of shimakazes and  generaly japan dd. 

[Animalul2012]

13 minutes ago, Flavio1997 said:

Omly harugumo does

KHABAROVSK????!!!!

[Flavio1997]

1 minute ago, Animalul2012 said:

KHABAROVSK????!!!!

We were talking about the ijn line...contest man, you lack in the reading and comprehensio  skill.

 

I do agree however that the german line need some love

[Animalul2012]

5 minutes ago, Flavio1997 said:

We were talking about the ijn line...contest man, you lack in the reading and comprehensio  skill.

 

I do agree however that the german line need some love

and khabarovsk is not a dd? it doesnt eat pens? with what are IJN above soviet ships? 

[eliastion]

5 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

what i'm talking about when i say "unfair" i mean:

at the start of the match, if both the dds on both sides are going for the cap, by the time one spot the other, and the less powerful dd ( so everything else at their tier) has the chance of doing an u turn, they are dead.

So, you're creating the single best-case scenario for these ships: someone going for a 1v1 DD duel with them... and you're surprised that they are winning?

The secret is to not find yourself bow-to-bow with one of these... you just don't approach the cap that way, at the very least not without a really heavy support. You adjust your tactics to the enemy you're facing... or you suffer.

 

Also, while we're at it - why are you talking about the Akizuki line in this context instead of Daring that's much more powerful in this scenario by virtue of having Kitakaze concealment, Harugumo DPM, improved AP penetration angles if the enemy shows broadside or something close to that... oh, and good handling and self-defense hydro so you cant torp her.

 

5 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

For the akizuki and kita is even more pronounced because:

-the aki encounters those poor tier 6's and 7's without the slot 5 concealment module, that you not only termonuke in firepower, but even outspot

Well, the concealment-slot-induced gap between t7 and t8 DDs is a problem that's neither new nor special for Akizuki. Any t8 DD with decent guns has a nasty habit of both outspotting and obliterating with guns the lower tier "cousins". The entire class/tier combination suffering from the same problem hardly is a valid basis for targeted nerfs.

 

5 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

-the kita has very respectable concealment, so usually, you get spotted at the same time that you spot the enemy, or very close to it ( thanks to the distances compression of this game)

She also handles like crap, so unless you get caught in a 1v1 or are kind enough to push into her and let her do the kiting, she's very vulnerable to the support from your teammates. Unless you misplay, she's going to suffer similar % damage that you're receiving.

 

5 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

-harugumo is somewhat more balanced, but it has insane firepower, and if i can rush a shima with a daring, that has similar concealment, harugumo can do the same.

No. Daring has Kitakaze's concealment, not Harugumo's. Daring also has better DPM (against DDs) than Harugumo AND a hydro to not be afraid of Shima's torps. It's like she's built for the sole purpose of rushing Shimas. Harugumo isn't. Even Kita (much superior in that aspect thx to better concealment and handling) isn't anywhere near as good at Daring for this job.

 

5 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

at 12 kms they can easily win a battle against the light cruisers who should be his counter ( i know, the light cruiser can stealth up, hoping that no other torp dd is spotting him), or heavy cruiser with slow shell velocity, that's imho too much.

This is just blatantly untrue. They - unlike most DDs - are capable of fighting cruisers, yes. They aren't as hopelessly outmatched. They can kite cruisers while trading evenly with them, but the only situation where they really win 1v1 against same tier cruiser - especially "easily win" - is when the cruiser has a crap player inside. Other than that "easy victories" are just not cases of fighting a cruiser but rather of utilizing the firepower at your disposal to inflict severe damage on cruisers unable to give you their undivided attention. A.K.A. outplaying them while using your team's help (if only as a distraction).

 

5 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

Even stats wise they are always in the 2nd spot ( not counting the asashio's), either behind the ru line ( that usually farm bbs, so useless damage) or the uk dds ( even they imho a bit too strong, especially the lightning).

Oh really? Let's check last two month average winrates from EU, then.

T10:

Daring: 54,32%

Khaba: 52,34%

Grozovoi: 51,73%

Harugumo: 50,67%

 

that's 4th. Out of 8.

 

On t9 and t8 (if you don't count Black) Kitakaze is indeed #2 after Jutland (but with a whooping 0,04% advantage over #3 Chung Mu) with Akizuki also second only to Lightning (and five premium ships, but let's leave them aside as well). Which brings us to the main question. Why are these ships the ones you want nerfed rather than the - at least according to EU stats - clearly superior RN DDs? Even your own stats (it's a small sample, of course, but still) seem to imply that the respective RN DD counterparts are no weaker than Akizuki, Kitakaze and Harugumo - in fact the only tier where your IJN gunboat outperforms your RN destroyer is t8, the Lightning (making it strange for you to mention "especially the lightning"). This also happens to be the closest competition - on t9 and t10 the difference is huge (although, as mentioned, since we're only talking a single player's stats, the samples can be too small to really draw any far-reaching conclusions).

 

6 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

what i would do in this regard?

-nerf the concealment across the line of about 0.5 to 1 kms ( closer to 1km imho, they should be around the 7 kms mark), to make them more in line with the ru dds and not be able to rush a dd so efficiently as they do now. 

-swap the TRB with def aa, as those ship were born with anti air capabilities in mind and the TRB gives them the advantage of both a gunboat and a torpedo boat, and that's imho stupid

 

Basically "let's butcher their gameplay because I don't like them" (not that Harugumo can actually rush any brain-equipped DDs since her concealment is a joke anyway). Also, after the CV rework they are somewhat capable in the AA department and giving them def. AA would've made them outright invulnerable to CVs. Also also, their TRB reloads forever and a day. Want something that has both gunboat and torpboat adantages? RN DDs say hi (and they even have single-torp fire elasticity as a bonus).

 

6 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

also some buff

-maybe tune up a bit the agility of those ships, especially the tier 8 and 10 ( i'm still thinking about it)

-remove the full ap pen for Harugumo. This had been a very lazy and stupid design choice from wg: khabarosk had kept that rule because it has the armour to bounce those shells when properly angled, and as such it should have also the drawbacks of it ( arming those shells if they penetrate). But harugumo received this treatment because WG knew that it was  an op ship and so they have indirectly nerf it this way,  and as i said above, this is lazy design

 

what do you think?

I'll say that the reasons for Harugumo being susceptible to BB AP elude me (she does NOT have armor like Khaba; if she was deemed too hard to sink, she should've gotten hp nerf instead). Still, the thing is, these ships have their unique flavor. They already suffered from RN line coming and carving a big chunk of their niche (basically doing what was Akizuki's forte but better) and were given super HE pen in return. Still, taking away their ability to play as DDs (by taking away their stealth AND their torps and forcing into long-range gunboat role) is not the way to go. Especially since - as stats show - they are certainly strong but not really overperforming. On every single tier that "job" belongs to RN DDs that you - for some reason - seem much more generous towards even though even you are doing better in them than in their IJN counterparts.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

6 hours ago, Flavio1997 said:

 with kitakaze coming close to being op...

 

what do you think?

 

Stats don't seem to indicate it is OP, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it is unbalanced.

 

--------------------------

 

Two months ending (2019/01/19)

                    Win Rate
Kitakaze    50.23

[eliastion]

35 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

But wg wont do it because they are scared of anime fanboys. and then you find you out they nerfed khabarovsk a soviet ship into oblivion!

Khabarovsk is 2nd best performing DD on her tier. Doesn't sound all that "nerfed to oblivion" to me. And, actually, both soviet t10 DDs perform better than Harugumo (and the less said about the average performance of Shima, the better). Much anime fanboy bias

 

35 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

almost NOBODY plays khabarovsk, yueyang and z-52( german dds need buffs as well) the matchmaking is full of shimakazes and  generaly japan dd.

Which just shows that power and popularity don't correlate as strongly as you'd think.

The last two months there were LOTS of Shima battles (over 4k), LOTS of Gearing battles (over 2k), respectable number of Harugumo and Z-52 battles (over 800 each) while the numbers for Grozovoi, Khaba and Daring are all in 400-500 range with the least popular one being Yueyang with barealy over 360 battles on her last 2-month record.

[Animalul2012]

1 minute ago, eliastion said:

Khabarovsk is 2nd best performing DD on her tier. Doesn't sound all that "nerfed to oblivion" to me.

 

Which just shows that power and popularity don't correlate as strongly as you'd think.

The last two months there were LOTS of Shima battles (over 4k), LOTS of Gearing battles (over 2k), respectable number of Harugumo and Z-52 battles (over 800 each) while the numbers for Grozovoi, Khaba and Daring are all in 400-500 range with the least popular one being Yueyang with barealy over 360 battles on her last 2-month record.

Why do you always compare ships by stats? what is wrong with looking at theyre ship parameters! it what world is destroyer that can pen 32mm of armor with HE, while reloading in 2 sec? 

Its a gun boat why it gets 12km torpedoes? and what is that concealment gun boat with that amount of firepower and DPM gets a 6.2 concealment! And what are it weaknesses? it doesnt go 48 knots? it doesnt have the royal navy handling? REALLY? 

Meanwhile the other one get a horrible 7.9 concealment, 5 sec reload with 4x2 130mm guns that barely pen 21 mm of armor and about 26 with IPHE, 6km torpedoes because it is a gun boat after all,

abysmal gun range, turns like a truck. 

All of this for what? for that 48 knots magic? Not to forget that you have to take AFT if you want to have range and stering gears mod 3 so you dont want to have battleship rudder shift! And lets not forget that you can eat pens, one magic salvo from a bb and you are dead! and that 50mm plating is weakness, it can arm AP shells when caught broadside, daring and z-52 are your worst enemies!

But no if it has 50% win rate it is balanced! YOU know what? WFT auf E100 also had 50% win rate and guess what? it was broken and it got removed! You have to compare ships not only by stats but by also theyre parameters!

[Bunny_Lover_Kallen]

2 minutes ago, Animalul2012 said:

But no if it has 50% win rate it is balanced! YOU know what? WFT auf E100 also had 50% win rate and guess what? it was broken and it got removed! You have to compare ships not only by stats but by also theyre parameters!

It got removed for being OP, so naturally it had 50+% WR. You are claiming Khaba is not good enough, so quite the opposite.

[Desteban]

@Animalul2012 You seem to be very salty they nerfed Khaba. She was OP and got nerfed a lot,

after everything she still is the best DD killer and with IFHE and Legendary Modul you can kill almost any cruiser as well in a pure gunfight.

Khaba is far from weak so please stop crying.

 

I don't even use CE on Kitakaze or Harugumo. Kita could use it because she has awesome concealment. But my cpt only

has 19 points and those are already busy with the buffing her armament. I don't think concealment would fix any of the issues

people have with those ships. Mainly the high fire rate with the broken penetration. Those ships aren't OP but badly balanced.

[Animalul2012]

Just now, Desteban said:

@Animalul2012 You seem to be very salty they nerfed Khaba. She was OP and got nerfed a lot,

after everything she still is the best DD killer and with IFHE and Legendary Modul you can kill almost any cruiser as well in a pure gunfight.

Khaba is far from weak so please stop crying.

 

I don't even use CE on Kitakaze or Harugumo. Kita could use it because she has awesome concealment. But my cpt only

has 19 points and those are already busy with the buffing her armament. I don't think concealment would fix any of the issues

people have with those ships. Mainly the high fire rate with the broken penetration. Those ships aren't OP but badly balanced.

Sure thing mate)) sure!