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Beastofwar

DD are not weak at all !

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Plenty of CV's have ruined me in a DD, plenty have failed miserably. There's still some minor balancing required, but on the whole DD's are still weaker than they should be in the advent of rockets and excessive spotting. You can mitigate through intelligent play and 8.0.3 seems to have helped DD's a little, but at the expense of overly nerfed CV's and continuing issues with spotting.

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40 minutes ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Plenty of CV's have ruined me in a DD, plenty have failed miserably. There's still some minor balancing required, but on the whole DD's are still weaker than they should be in the advent of rockets and excessive spotting. You can mitigate through intelligent play and 8.0.3 seems to have helped DD's a little, but at the expense of overly nerfed CV's and continuing issues with spotting.

 

If team play was more encouraged ( with more noticable rewards for specific supportive actions ) DD would appriciate their "friends" in the air more i think instead of wanting to nerf them to hell and back as enemies.

 

I am often going in with a capping DD together and if the enemy does not do the same it will result in a cap because the enemy DD will face 2 opponents both dangerous. Even more if he's spotted in range of more allied ships.

 

But  i'm actually not so sure if DD actually appriciate support as there will be no honorable knife fight, no fair fight, a possible "kill steal" and potentially signalling the enemy fleet where the DD is since circeling in a cap, especially when deplyong consumbale fighters in there usually means a CV is trying to support a concealed DD there. And the CV's aircraft are not so much concealed....

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FWIW I don't think it's terribly helpful to be discussing DDs as if they're one homogeneous lump of largely identical ships.

 

Your results will vary spectacularly, depending on whether you're driving, say, Kidd, Benson, Kagero, Asashio, Loyang etc., and that's just a few from T8...

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You deserved to be killed by that DD, if you had time to throw stupid rockets atthe DD instead of just blapping it with Divebombers. As Erazer already stated. DBs are the way to get rid of DDs

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3 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

You deserved to be killed by that DD, if you had time to throw stupid rockets atthe DD instead of just blapping it with Divebombers. As Erazer already stated. DBs are the way to get rid of DDs

 

You are aware that won't work on Japanese CV right ?

 

I have no specific prefered nation which ships i only play.....all should be able to emergency defend themselves.....they were before the stacked nerfing.

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Vor 2 Minuten, Beastofwar sagte:

 

You are aware that won't work on Japanese CV right ?

 

I have no specific prefered nation which ships i only play.....all should be able to emergency defend themselves.....they were before the stacked nerfing.

in the specific example you showed you said you used tiny tims, so i responded to use dBs next time, since only USN CV can have tiny tims my advice was exactly right and i am aware tgat IJN CV are bad yes

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18 minutes ago, Zuihou25 said:

in the specific example you showed you said you used tiny tims, so i responded to use dBs next time, since only USN CV can have tiny tims my advice was exactly right and i am aware tgat IJN CV are bad yes

 

So how do Japanese CV defend their CV in close quarters then ? Not being able to defend themselves does not fly, no ship is helpless in that. And because it is an all new situation since the latest nerfs and very likely an overlooked -yet obvious -  side effect.

 

I would love to petetion WG to give  Japanese CV an auto-launched  "devine wind" squadron for that purpose, but just adjusting that fire delay nerf would work too i guess.....

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Cleaned up the thread a bit, I'd appreciate it if people could be constructive and debate in a positive and civil manner. Thanks :)

 

Regards, CptMinia.

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10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

A single DB attack can, given sufficient prayers and sacrifices to RNGesus, almost oneshot any DD with SE and certainly oneshot most of them without SE.

 

In practice removing roughly half the HP of an offending DD with a single DB attack is far from uncommon even with the Lexington (or should be if they haven't changed her DBs since PTS, which they afaik have not).

Using TiTs in particular is the wrong way to approach the situation. If you want to use RFs against DDs, use FFARs. TiTs are for harassing BBs and cruisers, their performance against DDs is often sub-par as your example handily proves.

A single salvo from a BB, given sufficient prayers and sacrifices to RNGesus, one shot ANY ship.

 

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So CVs can happily strike while being unaffected by a counter attack at range across the map, but once ships have closed with them they should be able to blat those ship no problem. Seem like a legit problem you should submit a proposal to WG with a solution. Hey maybe close range cruise missiles so if you get spotted they target the offending ship and Blat it.

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5 hours ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

DDs are not OP right now verses cvs and bbs, however they are OP against certain player types.

I didnt want to elaborate on my statement as I thought everyone is aware of the problem. Since it appears you try to insult here with no reason or provocation I will not give you the pleasure to respond. If you are not a [edited] and you just dont know, then let me tell u that dds (khaba for example and others) being able to burn a BB to the waterline and sink using ONLY their guns is ridiculous to be in the game. Hurt their superstructure yes, sink them? no way. It is not a mechanism I like. Now if a ship that has certain advantages by nature (stealth, torps etc ) is given even more advantages by the game designers to negate its disadvantages ( like tiny guns that deal HUGE dmg, unrealistic dispersion on a very small ship etc) where they were weak then yes, this ship is indeed OP.

 

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58 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

So how do Japanese CV defend their CV in close quarters then ?

Frankly, if I can get into true CQB with a CV, that CV deserves to be sunk - the CV has either spectacularly mis-played, or his team has already lost.

 

Assuming we're talking about mainly DDs (the original example was a Shima), you first have to get past the CV's screen, which at high tiers will almost certainly include radar, not to mention the still highly effective spotting from the CV's planes themselves (Sixth sense is still a highly effective tool, even with the latest spotting nerfs); as a DD, you are spectacularly vulnerable to gunfire the moment you get lit.

 

As a DD, I'm far more worried about CVs' spotting abilities than I am about their offensive capabilities; if you are a CV and worried about DDs, you need to spot them early, and get your team-mates to sink them. Shima has essentially no meaningful AA, so getting one blapped early shouldn't be that hard if he's making any sort of play for the CV itself (assuming the CV isn't positioned badly); if the Shima is hiding under the skirts of the AA ships, who cares - he's wasted back there.

 

Crucially though, why should a CV not be largely defenceless in certain situations? All the other classes are; it's a key part of the interplay between the various classes, and frankly a CV's vulnerability is usually rather harder to take advantage of...

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28 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Frankly, if I can get into true CQB with a CV, that CV deserves to be sunk - the CV has either spectacularly mis-played, or his team has already lost.

 

Crucially though, why should a CV not be largely defenceless in certain situations? All the other classes are; it's a key part of the interplay between the various classes, and frankly a CV's vulnerability is usually rather harder to take advantage of...

 

I cannot blame you because this screen is not a replay.

 

I did not mis-play, i was saving the match for the - already sunk - team by delaying their cap enough for the only other surviving ship to come into the cap also and maybe win the match. He did. I could delay enemy capping by not only attacking the 2 ships in the cap but also positioning myself in it so in the intermittend time i could not damage them they wouldn't cap.

 

My point is the CV class being the surviving ship often and not always having less victory points then the enemy it is usefull to use your CV as a ship and try cap and/or delay enemy cap. This worked well - i have (helped) turned many matches around as the surviving ship just by delay or cap - until last nerfing where CV lost their ability to combat close quarters DD that often lay in ambush.

 

You cannot prevent coming into close range with DD if you want to save the match by capping, or delaying cap. This is a game, not a RLCV..it must be like any other ship.

 

And suddenly - due to a specific nerf - the CV is defenceless with it's main weapon. I just don't think that was intendend. The nerfs were to relief pressure on DD, not make CV incapable of defending themselves.

 

IRL ofcourse this would never happen, CV are surrounded by an escort of many ships. But they were also equiped with loads of secondary and dual purpose AA guns. That could shoot at surface targets for  a whole lot furter then base 4 km.... If WG must maintain the nerf - which irritates me every time it prevents me to fire, and with me many more players - then let them buff secondary batteries somewhat.

 

Something must be able to keep the DD at distance. As you have seen "if a DD comes so close you deserve to sink" does not adress Japanese CV have no divebomber capable of killing DD, and rocket ones are not able to kill it for an entire match despite doing 15k damage to it while all the nerfs worki against you. Reasonable people would conclude the nerfs have become overly nerfing, leading to other solutions that may not be wanted. Being killed by automatic secondary batteries that are not player skill driven...is that how you wish to die as DD ?

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

the CV is defenceless with it's main weapon.

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3 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Something must be able to keep the DD at distance.

You're not entitled to damage immunity. If a DD has worked to close the distance, tough. So entitled. Much wow. 

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8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

I did not mis-play, i was saving the match for the - already sunk - team by delaying their cap enough for the only other surviving ship to come into the cap also and maybe win the match. He did.

Then, that's a (very rare) sub-set of 'the match is already lost', where it actually wasn't - if you see what I mean.

 

If you're down to you and one other ship, you have no gods-given right to being immune just because you're a CV; I think you said the other ship was a CL - unless he has essentially no hp left, he should be able to gun down the Shima in short order, assuming you spot the DD for him - in this case, the CL is your close-in defence against the DD.

 

FWIW I think the recent CV nerf was over enthusiastic (as I've said elsewhere - I would have only changed some aspect of spotting, preferably removing SS rather than buffing ships' spotting distance, and left damage stuff alone until the dust settled a bit), but that doesn't justify any sort of magic immunity just because a well-played DD gets close. Pre-nerf, I didn't fear any CV that I got close to in my DDs (almost all of which are US or Russian since the rework); the time they're a threat is at medium-long range (which was also true with the RTS ones)...

 

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9 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Something must be able to keep the DD at distance.

It's called "moving".

 

Alternatively, just by counting ships and noticing where a DD isn't can tell you if he's trying to get you and you can go out on a search pattern with your RFs to find the bugger before he gets too close for comfort. As long as you pay attention to the matchflow, spotted ships and aren't one of those people confusing their aircraft carriers for airfields you should never be in a position where a DD can seriously threaten you. And by the time you've run out of map to move to without sailing headlong into the enemy in order to avoid a potential CV hunting DD, your team has already lost anyway.

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55 minutes ago, Aotearas said:

It's called "moving".

 

Alternatively, just by counting ships and noticing where a DD isn't can tell you if he's trying to get you and you can go out on a search pattern with your RFs to find the bugger before he gets too close for comfort. As long as you pay attention to the matchflow, spotted ships and aren't one of those people confusing their aircraft carriers for airfields you should never be in a position where a DD can seriously threaten you. And by the time you've run out of map to move to without sailing headlong into the enemy in order to avoid a potential CV hunting DD, your team has already lost anyway.

 

Did you read the part about being the last ship - which happens to CV a lot - will often require you to sail to the cap if you don't want to lose the match ? It is a game, not a pure sea battle simulator.

 

That is "moving" but possibly into hidden DD. Now you may have the opinion that is stupid, but sailing away is too because it is a game where you are required to cap to collect the nescesary win points. If you are the only one left it is up to you. And if there would be any game balance CV must be able to do this just as any other ship would. And they were able to....just untill last patch with the 5 additional nerfs just slapped on.

 

I did not plea for immunity. That would be absurd. Steaming into a wall of torpedo's should kill me. I asked for a fair chance to fight at all ranges, be able to return damage and close quarters is ofcourse most critical of all ranges. As in "'my rockets will fire when i want to fire them"  If they are not well aimed they will just miss anyway. Why prevent them to be fired ?? As you can see this annoying  nerf does nothing for DD under normal circumstances, i fired 10 Tiny Tims into the DD already...between all the other damage i did to other ships. It does nothing but irritate it's user. And prevents him to defend himself when under attack.

 

Now before you pop the champagne CV are now sitting ducks there are also secondary guns and the higher the tier the more there are. These are generally underwhelming and not very frightfull unless heaviliy invested in. They do chew up unarmoured  DD with a secondary build pretty fast. Up to 5.8 km.But if auto shooting secondary batteries rip up too many DD they just get nerfed too, without adressing the problem...the one nerf that was too much nerfing : preventing to fire when you want to fire no matter if it is accurate or not !

 

Can you even imagine you want to fire with your - loaded and aimed - BB guns and the game just won't let you at the moment you want to ? This sucks all satisfaction, all joy out of such a fighting vehicle. Even having strike fighters  fire rockets with 50 dmg a piece would have been a better solution then preventing it to fire ! ( and again before the last nerfs it did fire rockets when you pressed the fire button...it''s not changing something into what it wasn't...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, lossi_2018 said:

I didnt want to elaborate on my statement as I thought everyone is aware of the problem. Since it appears you try to insult here with no reason or provocation I will not give you the pleasure to respond. If you are not a [edited] and you just dont know, then let me tell u that dds (khaba for example and others) being able to burn a BB to the waterline and sink using ONLY their guns is ridiculous to be in the game. Hurt their superstructure yes, sink them? no way. It is not a mechanism I like. Now if a ship that has certain advantages by nature (stealth, torps etc ) is given even more advantages by the game designers to negate its disadvantages ( like tiny guns that deal HUGE dmg, unrealistic dispersion on a very small ship etc) where they were weak then yes, this ship is indeed OP.

 

Are you actually arguing that a DD should not be able to sink a BB in game?

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20 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Are you actually arguing that a DD should not be able to sink a BB in game?

No.

 

I didnt write it very well probably. Meant with fire, I'd lost a game we should have won but the only dd left cap the base which I was left protecting since the fleet (whole fleet) went to cap the enemy base to get the xp. Got a teamkill also since it was that type of game and I was a bit frustrated, I'm better now :Smile_facepalm:

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2 hours ago, valrond said:

A single salvo from a BB, given sufficient prayers and sacrifices to RNGesus, one shot ANY ship.

 

And when BB have infinite range without accuracy penalty, can spot their own targets and shoot through islands that might be relevant to something.

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6 minutes ago, lossi_2018 said:

No.

 

I didnt write it very well probably. Meant with fire, I'd lost a game we should have won but the only dd left cap the base which I was left protecting since the fleet (whole fleet) went to cap the enemy base to get the xp. Got a teamkill also since it was that type of game and I was a bit frustrated, I'm better now :Smile_facepalm:

DD though are a very varied class. Om one hand you have a stealthy asashio that has 20km torps (that only work against BB+CV) which has a detection of 5.4km. Its never going to kill a BB with its guns even if it spent all game firing them.

 

On the other hand you have the Khaba, which is detected at 10km, doesnt use smoke, and only has 6km torps. Its never going to sneak anywhere, nor stealth torp. It makes up for it by having excellent guns, to the point most people consider it a mini cruiser

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2 hours ago, valrond said:

A single salvo from a BB, given sufficient prayers and sacrifices to RNGesus, one shot ANY ship. 

 

Then again, they really cant :cap_old:

Potentially a BB can oneshot every Cruiser - yes. And some BBs which have a citadel can be oneshotted, but most of them dont have a Citadel really. Try oneshotting a Conqueror.

Also oneshotting a DD is basicly impossible, since BB AP got changed. Might be technically possible with HE, but it actually wont ever happen because dispersion.

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44 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Are you actually arguing that a DD should not be able to sink a BB in game?

 

 I think he has a point no DD should be able to sink a battleship with their ""pathetic little popguns"....that are meant to damage thin skinned unarmoured targets like their own kind or at most a CL. Were it any realistic.

 

A Battleship citadel is ofcourse as we all know a floating thick armoured metal bunker no 127-150 mm can do anything against but scratch paint. All critical systems are inside it. It's positive boyancy is there too although bow and stern help it but it does not need them to keep floating. Some BB lost their bows or sterns in storms, due to torpedo's or in battle but they could return safely to port. BB could still operate to some limited extend with their entire superstructure shot off. It would never sink of a destroyed superstructure.

 

But for balancing reasons DD can just shoot HE at BB superstructure and wear them down with fire. It will then sink.  It is rediculous, but it is a game where no ship is all powerfull and all can hurt it.

 

When you thnink of it when a divebomber would drop ( AP) bombs on a destroyer and they would fall through the ship as they do in game, that ship would probably sink fast because of holing the hull below the waterline - bottom even - But no, DD are protected against all sorts of damage with magic shields. Same as car-weight AP projectiles slamming through the hull......minor damage......Game balancing....

 

It is all ok to me, play the class too. But DD fanatics seem all devouring when it comes to even more magic protection even if this completely wrecks other classes.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

 I think he has a point no DD should be able to sink a battleship with their ""pathetic little popguns"....that are meant to damage thin skinned unarmoured targets like their own kind or at most a CL. Were it any realistic.

 

A Battleship citadel is ofcourse as we all know a floating thick armoured metal bunker no 127-150 mm can do anything against but scratch paint. All critical systems are inside it. It's positive boyancy is there too although bow and stern help it but it does not need them to keep floating. Some BB lost their bows or sterns in storms, torpedo's or in battle but they could return safely to port. BB could still operate to some limited extend with their entire superstructure shot off. It would never sink of a destroyed superstructure.

 

But for balancing reasons DD can just shoot HE at BB superstructure and wear them down with fire. It will then sink.  It is rediculous, but it is a game where no ship is all powerfull and all can hurt it.

 

When you thnink of it when a divebomber would drop ( AP) bombs on a destroyer and they would fall through the ship as they do in game, that ship would probably sink fast because of holing the hull below the waterline - bottom even - But no, DD are protected against all sorts of damage with magic shields. Game balancing....

 

It is all ok to me, play the class too. But DD fanatics seem all devouring when it comes to even more magic protection even if this completely wrecks other classes.

 

 

 

That is what I meant ty. Ofc a dd will sink a bb with torps np wit that. Yes also, to it burning it completely but then torp it to sink it, not keep on shooting a fully armored beast, that has nothing left to burn and sink it with HE, its not mechanism I like. I wasnt proposing to nerf the dds or anything. Just make it a bit more difficult, or give the targeted ships a counter like shooting it as you say and if you over pen the hull gives us flooding or something so we dont feel cheated when we score a perfect hit and it goes through the other way. At least have it take a part of the dd with it which isnt unrealistic. Again this is more suggestion and general talk and not me saying I have a prob with the game.   

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10 minutes ago, lossi_2018 said:

 

That is what I meant ty. Ofc a dd will sink a bb with torps np wit that. Yes also, to it burning it completely but then torp it to sink it, not keep on shooting a fully armored beast, that has nothing left to burn and sink it with HE, its not mechanism I like. I wasnt proposing to nerf the dds or anything. Just make it a bit more difficult, or give the targeted ships a counter like shooting it as you say and if you over pen the hull gives us flooding or something so we dont feel cheated when we score a perfect hit and it goes through the other way. At least have it take a part of the dd with it which isnt unrealistic. Again this is more suggestion and general talk and not me saying I have a prob with the game.   

 

10 Tiny Tims with a damage potential of 54 K damage hitting but barely scratching a DD is pretty weird too......should just blow up when 1 such a missile hits it good.

 

I understand why this cannot be. I do not uderstand why i may not fire when i want to. It should be my decision if the shot should be accurate or not by firing earlier. If they did this to BB guns, or DD torpedo's, the forum would collaps...

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