Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[Lootboxer]

LOL MM, 3x smalland vs 3x shima, game was short because way too many unicums in my team, also Petropavlovsk seems balanced, but then unicums can make anything looking OP. For us in Bbs it was like coop, to short to do something.

[Greyshark]

4 minutes ago, DariusJacek said:

LOL MM, 3x smalland vs 3x shima, game was short because way too many unicums in my team, also Petropavlovsk seems balanced, but then unicums can make anything looking OP. For us in Bbs it was like coop, to short to do something.

Same division here, same result ;)

 

[Afghanicus]

Just had a battle in my BB.

 

Only 7 DDs on each side.

 

Very good MM indeed.

[Squarebasher54]

On 3/12/2020 at 10:54 PM, DariusJacek said:

LOL MM, 3x smalland vs 3x shima, game was short because way too many unicums in my team, also Petropavlovsk seems balanced, but then unicums can make anything looking OP. For us in Bbs it was like coop, to short to do something.

THis just proves how aweful WG MM is in this game, it needs to be percentage based on individual ships.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Squarebasher54 said:

THis just proves how aweful WG MM is in this game, it needs to be percentage based on individual ships.

If that would have changed the result...

[Squarebasher54]

10 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

If that would have changed the result...

Of course it would have changed the result, those 2 divisions would have been on opposite teams.

[ColonelPete]

9 minutes ago, Squarebasher54 said:

Of course it would have changed the result, those 2 divisions would have been on opposite teams.

Ok, that means you do want it based on ships, as you wrote, but based on WR of players.

As we explained often enough, that does not work as everyone will end up with around 50% and the system cannot differentiate between different skill levels anymore.

[Squarebasher54]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

Ok, that means you do want it based on ships, as you wrote, but based on WR of players.

As we explained often enough, that does not work as everyone will end up with around 50% and the system cannot differentiate between different skill levels anymore.

No it will not.

[Excavatus]

3 minutes ago, Squarebasher54 said:

No it will not.

care to elaborate why do you think it will not ?

[T3ddyBear]

Is it not possible to look at the "overall" WR's/PR and allocate the unicums/spanners across the teams equally? This way we would have a mix of ability throughout BOTH teams.

 

I often see one side with all the "purple" players and one side with all the 41% WR, red damage, players, I doubt it is fun for either side.

 

Not asking for skill based MM, just a fairer distribution of the 24 players picked for that particular battle, obviously unicum/spanner divisions will throw it off but surely it cannot be that hard?

 

TB.

[DFens_666]

8 minutes ago, T3ddyBear said:

I often see one side with all the "purple" players and one side with all the 41% WR, red damage, players, I doubt it is fun for either side.

 

Thats not something i see, and i play 3x division only. Sure, ive had those games, where in addition to our division, we had another Hurricane/Unicum division. But that happens less often than being in seperate teams.

Thats from a recent T7 only game... One guy missing with ~600 games 48% WR. + My division ofc. No chance to win actually. They just suicided or did nothing.

The most interesting thing ive observed lately is, that my team almost ALWAYS has less clan players than the enemies. And they always suck, no wonder. But that shouldnt be, because 3 out of 12 spots are already taken by my division, so for the rest, there are only 9vs12 spots open, but for some reason, we often get the newbies/noobs.

 

[Salminen]

Why doesn't this game have actual elo(or some other system) based matchmaking? What'd be the downside? 

 

Here's a quick pros/cons off the top of my head.

 

Negative:

- Possibly slower matchmaking during off peak hours

- Would possibly have to be tier based, since winrate in t4 games is very different from winrate in t10. Possibly disabled until higher tiers.

 

Positive:

+ More consistent for vets and newbies alike, since teammates would be more predictable and matches would likely be more even.

+ No more vets crushing new players in low tier games. For example in league of legends, even in non-ranked games the hidden elo system makes sure that a veteran player will almost never face actual new players in matchmaking after first few games. 

+ Less frustration for everyone. No more 60% winrates crying blood as they try to carry 40% teammates against a team that has 10% higher average WR.

 

I'm actually thinking that the main reason this game or world of tanks has never actually wanted a skill based matchmaking is that bad players can sometimes feel like absolute gods because they are matched against complete disaster teams. I mean, they still might lose 60% of their games but maybe those few games keep them playing more than consistently doing ok, but rarely doing amazingly?

[Excavatus]

27 minutes ago, Salminen said:

Negative:

* pushing everyone towards the %50 WR in the end

* not only tier based rating would suffice, but it would be based on ships / classes and Tiers.

* which will significantly extend the MM time even on peak hours.

* the better you get, the harder the game becomes for you, so it will be punishing good players by removing bad players on their queue, and rewarding bad players by removing good players on their queue.

 

We have 2 examples of ELO rating in this game,

they clearly show, it does not work when its not a team match.

Ranked says hello.

 

On the other hand, you cannot make a SBMM or ELO MM work in a game where there is no respawn mechanic.

Because there is a thing called Snowball effect in this game.

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

On the other hand, you cannot make a SBMM or ELO MM work in a game where there is no respawn mechanic.

Because there is a thing called Snowball effect in this game. 

 

Thats probably the most important thing, people just ignore or dont understand. To give an example:

A 40% is not the same as another 40% player. They can be useless due to different reasons:

- Player A has 10% survivability, rushes into the cap regardless of ship/tier/lineup/map and basicly dies most of the time before the 5 minute mark

- Player B has 40% survivability, sits with his BB in spawn and shoots 20km. He wont die, because his team loses on points before someone can kill him.

 

Regardless of how you distribute the other players, if one team gets a few players like A, and the other team gets players like B, then team A will literally always lose. Team A loses several players at the start of the game, because they just suicide, putting them at a disadvantage with damage output AND points.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Salminen said:

Why doesn't this game have actual elo(or some other system) based matchmaking? What'd be the downside? 

 

Here's a quick pros/cons off the top of my head.

 

Negative:

- Possibly slower matchmaking during off peak hours

- Would possibly have to be tier based, since winrate in t4 games is very different from winrate in t10. Possibly disabled until higher tiers.

 

Positive:

+ More consistent for vets and newbies alike, since teammates would be more predictable and matches would likely be more even.

+ No more vets crushing new players in low tier games. For example in league of legends, even in non-ranked games the hidden elo system makes sure that a veteran player will almost never face actual new players in matchmaking after first few games. 

+ Less frustration for everyone. No more 60% winrates crying blood as they try to carry 40% teammates against a team that has 10% higher average WR.

 

I'm actually thinking that the main reason this game or world of tanks has never actually wanted a skill based matchmaking is that bad players can sometimes feel like absolute gods because they are matched against complete disaster teams. I mean, they still might lose 60% of their games but maybe those few games keep them playing more than consistently doing ok, but rarely doing amazingly?

• Complexity of calculating ELO in a teamgame, but that should be solveable
• Not enough players with similar ELO in the MM queue
• This results in much longer wait times or similar skill differences as we have now

[Greek_Patriot]

On 3/16/2020 at 9:41 AM, Squarebasher54 said:

Of course it would have changed the result, those 2 divisions would have been on opposite teams.

MM based on percentage by each ship may be better than this crap MM. At least it wont be worse. But WG doesnt care about fair MM. Simple as that

[Merlin851526]

On 3/16/2020 at 11:35 AM, Excavatus said:

 

On the other hand, you cannot make a SBMM or ELO MM work in a game where there is no respawn mechanic.

Because there is a thing called Snowball effect in this game.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Yankmyplank]

Only good battles now are in clan wars!

 

Ranked and random are pathetically poor, played 1 ranked game at tier X where 5 team mates total battles added up to less than 4k games, while enemy team had several players with 4x that amount, I did 235k damage 3 kills and still a loss. No different in randoms where I get the CV player with a tier 10 and less than 400 account battles with a 33% WR while enemy get a veteran. If I am on the better side then simply the game is over before it starts, game won with no one getting more than 800 points because we got all caps uncontested. 

 

WG need to sort the MM out to put players with equal games and abilities into opposing teams,. Ranked is toxic enough with half the players being afk, that kind of tells me that the bottom player on winning team should not score a point, at least that way the afk'ers will just lose credits and places fast enough to not matter to those who put an effort in.

 

 

[Excavatus]

6 hours ago, Merlin851526 said:

What in the world are you talking about?

When you balance two teams and put them into a match,

That match will be balanced as long as all the players are IN the match and active.

Basically it is like football, If one of your players sent off you are in a complete disadvantage.

All SBMM, ELO, LEague system games have a respawn mechanic.

basically someone dies, someone comes back into match. Sometimes immediately sometimes with a little delay.

But they come back.

In wows, you don't come back. so even you make both teams balanced perfectly to each other, with the first ship dies it is gonna go down.

Faster than a  avelanche. now add this the different classes, different influences etc.

When you add RNG into this game, AFK people, detonations, lucky pens, etc etc..

SBMM ELO etc.. Will never ever work in this game.

You can see this in clan battles actually. It has a league rating system.

you put 2 very good, communicating and balanced teams against each other,

when the first guy dies, usually other team wins..

 

But people really having hard time to grasp this.

[lossi_2018]

On 3/18/2020 at 7:48 AM, Excavatus said:

you put 2 very good, communicating and balanced teams against each other, 

Same flawed logic again and again.

 

You Don't Know.

 

Who will win.

This will be the difference, and it is a huge one.

 

While now you know, since first minute which team will win.

I can predict my games to almost 90% and when I'm wrong sometimes something extraordinary happens or one team throws it for whatever reason.

[Wouter_Radix]

No matter what is said here... no matter what the purists say here... Fact is game is broken.

Why is it broken?? Becuase nobody listen. Oh... here they all have an oppinion but thats because they havent anything else to do i guess.

Winrate dropped as a rock... How come?? anybody???   Oh yes.. i know... i am a noob. Pitty there are so many noobs then.

Somehow i am a noob magnet i guess.... MM knows who to put in my team. :)

Well.. thats just my rand......... I know some smart guys will have their oppinion but that cant change mine..... MM is ready to replaced for something that DOES work...

 

Have fun and clear waters.....

[DFens_666]

18 minutes ago, Wouter_Radix said:

No matter what is said here... no matter what the purists say here... Fact is game is broken.

Why is it broken?? Becuase nobody listen. Oh... here they all have an oppinion but thats because they havent anything else to do i guess.

Winrate dropped as a rock... How come?? anybody???   Oh yes.. i know... i am a noob. Pitty there are so many noobs then.

Somehow i am a noob magnet i guess.... MM knows who to put in my team. :)

Well.. thats just my rand......... I know some smart guys will have their oppinion but that cant change mine..... MM is ready to replaced for something that DOES work...

 

Have fun and clear waters.....

 

https://wows-numbers.com/de/player/552853025,Wouter_Radix/

Based on your own stats, why do you think, you should win more games, especially at T9-10. You are just able to hang on at T5-8, but on T9-10, your performance is subpar at best.

You have 50k average damage with Republique, but meanwhile, your own ship has >90k HP! 50k is often not even enough for a TX Cruiser.

You are ranting about noobs, yet you are part of the problem. Your solution is: Give me super unicums all the time to carry my [edited]

[ColonelPete]

20 minutes ago, Wouter_Radix said:

No matter what is said here... no matter what the purists say here... Fact is game is broken.

Why is it broken?? Becuase nobody listen. Oh... here they all have an oppinion but thats because they havent anything else to do i guess.

Winrate dropped as a rock... How come?? anybody???   Oh yes.. i know... i am a noob. Pitty there are so many noobs then.

Somehow i am a noob magnet i guess.... MM knows who to put in my team. :)

Well.. thats just my rand......... I know some smart guys will have their oppinion but that cant change mine..... MM is ready to replaced for something that DOES work...

 

Have fun and clear waters.....

• Game runs for over four years, hardly possible for a broken game, THAT is a fact
• Other peoples WR is stable or rising, mine included
• maybe you just got worse?

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

30 minutes ago, Wouter_Radix said:

i am a noob 

 

Your win rate in high tiers will get over 50% with more practice. You're just inexperienced yet, it's ok. 

[Excavatus]

1 hour ago, lossi_2018 said:

I can predict my games to almost 90%

the point is.. with SBMM you will not be wrong on that %10 after a team loses a ship or two :)