Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[ColonelPete]

16 minutes ago, Yankmyplank said:

WG denied rigging the MM on WoT too, until a link to the US patents office showed they had in fact created a patent for doing exactly that. Then they banned anyone from game chat for a period who mentioned it. So from previous statements made by WG I know for a fact they not only lied about rigging the MM they gave chat bans to silence those that could prove different with real evidence.

 

I would like to think that WG have changed since that time but excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting to find out.

Seriously?

You are three years too late for this discussion.

And no, you do not get chat banned for that.

[Yankmyplank]

4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Seriously?

You are three years too late for this discussion.

And no, you do not get chat banned for that.

It was actually a lot longer than 3 years ago. But the patent did state WG could alter the MM based on skill across ALL titles under the WG name. The patent was quite large in definition and must have cost a small fortune to produce.

 

If you are going to comment by way of fact then at least get the fact right. WG did chat ban players for talking about it. I had several 3 day chat bans myself and 1 mod told me if I mentioned it again in game I would get a permanent chat ban, he then went on to insult my parents and grandparents. 

One thing has certainly changed since then, WG mods were quite toxic in chat themselves on WoT but I have never seen that in WoWS. So that is certainly 1 step in the right direction.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Yankmyplank said:

It was actually a lot longer than 3 years ago. But the patent did state WG could alter the MM based on skill across ALL titles under the WG name. The patent was quite large in definition and must have cost a small fortune to produce.

 

If you are going to comment by way of fact then at least get the fact right. WG did chat ban players for talking about it. I had several 3 day chat bans myself and 1 mod told me if I mentioned it again in game I would get a permanent chat ban, he then went on to insult my parents and grandparents. 

One thing has certainly changed since then, WG mods were quite toxic in chat themselves on WoT but I have never seen that in WoWS. So that is certainly 1 step in the right direction.

As I said, we already discussed this. You do not seem to understand what patents do and what they are for.

Spoiler

Perpetual motion machines are back, but then, they never really went away. Set one going, and by definition it will still be running whenever you next look at it—if you can find it, that is, since no self-respecting perpetual motion machine would remain in the same place for ever. One which is unlikely to hang around for long is US patent 6,960,975 (Volfson). Modestly or prudently concealed behind the uninformative title of a ‘Space vehicle propelled by the pressure of inflationary vacuum state’, this patent ¹ describes and claims a space vehicle provided with a superconductive ‘anti-gravity shield’ which distorts the local space-time continuum, thereby tapping into an effectively infinite source of energy for propulsion, and accelerating the vehicle, its inventor, and up to two other occupants to within a fraction of the local speed of light, without requiring a conventional engine, or apparently consuming any fuel. I wonder if the Examiner wishes he was on board.

 

1 Granted on 1 November 2005, after the ‘thorough’ and ‘complete’ examination prescribed by 37 CFR § 1.104. In addition to US 6,960,975 B1 itself, see P Ball, ‘Antigravity Craft Slips Past Patent Officers’ Nature . 2005; 438(7065):139.

https://academic.oup.com/jiplp/article/2/3/136/2358262

 

The fact is you will not get chat banned for this. Period. I do not care what happened in the past in another game. This is WoWs in 2020!

[neorvo]

2 hours ago, Yankmyplank said:

It was actually a lot longer than 3 years ago. But the patent did state WG could alter the MM based on skill across ALL titles under the WG name. The patent was quite large in definition and must have cost a small fortune to produce.

 

If you are going to comment by way of fact then at least get the fact right. WG did chat ban players for talking about it. I had several 3 day chat bans myself and 1 mod told me if I mentioned it again in game I would get a permanent chat ban, he then went on to insult my parents and grandparents. 

One thing has certainly changed since then, WG mods were quite toxic in chat themselves on WoT but I have never seen that in WoWS. So that is certainly 1 step in the right direction.

What is the US Patent you are talking about? Have you the number to look  for it? That information is public domain, I guess you can share here

[Merlin851526]

3 hours ago, neorvo said:

What is the US Patent you are talking about? Have you the number to look  for it? That information is public domain, I guess you can share here

All you had to do was google it. Heavens knows why you didn't. However! you rest those busy fingers of yours I'll do all the heavy lifting for you. https://patents.google.com/patent/US8425330B1/en

[neorvo]

6 hours ago, Merlin851526 said:

All you had to do was google it. Heavens knows why you didn't. However! you rest those busy fingers of yours I'll do all the heavy lifting for you. https://patents.google.com/patent/US8425330B1/en

You are right, but for looking for with Google, we need good keywords to find what is. In this case I only had your post and I couldn't figure out how to search. Thanks for this link. I was not aware about this important issue.

[Xevious_Red]

3 hours ago, neorvo said:

You are right, but for looking for with Google, we need good keywords to find what is. In this case I only had your post and I couldn't figure out how to search. Thanks for this link. I was not aware about this important issue.

It's worth reading it - reason is it's always touted as "proof" that WG rigs the MM, yet after reading it I cant find this smoking gun that shows WG put all the baddies on my team to bring down my WR.

 

Closest I can find is that one of the methods (of which there are 5 listed) puts you as top tier if you've been losing, and bottom tier if you've been winning. Even this is easy to disprove as not being used - are you always bottom tier? If no then it doesnt really apply.

 

I would love someone to point out which part they think is the big rigging - and by that I mean the whole part and not just the cherry picked "can be adjusted by WR" (which is the first part of the sentence that goes on to include being top tier if you've been losing).

 

Sadly everytime I ask this (and it comes up about every 6 months for years across the WoT/WoWs forums), the usual conversation is this;

"Its rigged! There's a patent!"

"Ok what makes it rigged?"

"Go read it!!!!"

"Ok I've read it, which particular part are you referring to?"

*tumble weed*

 

Maybe I've missed it. But so far Ive seen loads of claims the patent proves its rigged, but never which specific part of the patent actually proves that.

[DFens_666]

34 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

It's worth reading it - reason is it's always touted as "proof" that WG rigs the MM, yet after reading it I cant find this smoking gun that shows WG put all the baddies on my team to bring down my WR.

 

Since im only playing divisions, it feels, that the better our division is (WR), the worse players are usually on our team. For some reason, 3 people with almost all 64-65% produces the most horrible experience, often we lose several of our teammates first...

Then again, ive also been in division with couple of 50%ers, that feels much more enjoyable to me, Hard games yes, but ive had atleast a chance to fight back, before my entire team decides to role over and die.

 

And ive actually had ~50% division mates telling me (while in div with me + another 64%er) that MM is horrible when he is in division with us^^

[Xevious_Red]

15 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Since im only playing divisions, it feels, that the better our division is (WR), the worse players are usually on our team. For some reason, 3 people with almost all 64-65% produces the most horrible experience, often we lose several of our teammates first...

Then again, ive also been in division with couple of 50%ers, that feels much more enjoyable to me, Hard games yes, but ive had atleast a chance to fight back, before my entire team decides to role over and die.

 

And ive actually had ~50% division mates telling me (while in div with me + another 64%er) that MM is horrible when he is in division with us^^

But then how much is that confirmation bias?

 

For example, my average WR sits at 58%. But my Des Moines (131 games) is languishing at 45%. Now to me, the DM is a cursed ship - if it can go wrong it will with that ship. Recently it got put in a match against a RAIN 3 man division. I got deleted from 100% to 0% in a single volley from the RAIN yamato. I've met Flamu twice in all my battles. Both times he was on the enemy team. Both times I was in the DM. Both times I had to fight him directly. Yesterday I had to pull out a 200k 4437PR game just to scrape a win, and even that was touch and go, and came down to winning on points as our sole surviving shima decided to try fighting a cruiser instead of just staying alive.

 

Now it could be that secretly I'm a great DM player, and that WG has decided to turn the rigging up to 11, and lump me with the most useless teams, put me against KoTS winners and known streamers, and set my armour on guaranteed citadel.

 

However it's more likely that the play style doesnt suit me (I prefer kiting cruisers), I position badly which gets me killed/cant support well, and I remember all the bad stuff more because every time I press battle with it I'm now expecting to lose/die horribly

[neorvo]

2 hours ago, Xevious_Red said:

It's worth reading it - reason is it's always touted as "proof" that WG rigs the MM, yet after reading it I cant find this smoking gun that shows WG put all the baddies on my team to bring down my WR.

 

Closest I can find is that one of the methods (of which there are 5 listed) puts you as top tier if you've been losing, and bottom tier if you've been winning. Even this is easy to disprove as not being used - are you always bottom tier? If no then it doesnt really apply.

 

I would love someone to point out which part they think is the big rigging - and by that I mean the whole part and not just the cherry picked "can be adjusted by WR" (which is the first part of the sentence that goes on to include being top tier if you've been losing).

 

Sadly everytime I ask this (and it comes up about every 6 months for years across the WoT/WoWs forums), the usual conversation is this;

"Its rigged! There's a patent!"

"Ok what makes it rigged?"

"Go read it!!!!"

"Ok I've read it, which particular part are you referring to?"

*tumble weed*

 

Maybe I've missed it. But so far Ive seen loads of claims the patent proves its rigged, but never which specific part of the patent actually proves that.

The patent is a protection of an idea, method, procedure etc. But that doesn't means they follow right all is written there. I can't give more feedback about this, this is new for me . But upto I know a patent gives wide guidelines of what is this MM, warning others to do similar methods, but the real one could be different never revealed by  WG .Again this is only an opinion, and it is interesting to know about it.

[loppantorkel]

I'll play a few (5-10 depending on how I feel) shima games now. I'll screenshot the MM, just to see and show.

[witteria]

Got Midway three days ago but I honestly dont know what is up with MM. Every game is a complete blow out.

 

Is this balans? Is this normal? Any tips on how to approach this?

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

[Xevious_Red]

5 minutes ago, witteria said:

Got Midway three days ago but I honestly dont know what is up with MM. Every game is a complete blow out.

 

Is this balans? Is this normal? Any tips on how to approach this?

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

 

CV are very influential; you dont kill a lot (less than 1 ship a game on average). You also dont do a lot of damage. You do however survive a lot.

 

So either your team folds so utterly fast the game ends by pts before you've done anything, or you're spending your games flying around not doing a lot.

 

Without replays or average game times couldnt make a call which way it is.

[witteria]

9 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

CV are very influential; you dont kill a lot (less than 1 ship a game on average). You also dont do a lot of damage. You do however survive a lot.

 

So either your team folds so utterly fast the game ends by pts before you've done anything, or you're spending your games flying around not doing a lot.

 

Without replays or average game times couldnt make a call which way it is.

 

Ok, below is a screenshot of my Lexington. If we entertain your theory that my dmg is to low. In my lexington it is even lower yet there I have a normal win-loss ratio.

 

To talk about your second point:  even if cv is highly influential as you point it out,why doesnt wargaming ban me outright since cleary I am the sole catalyst of my team losing. Seems quite an Interesting balans decision to make my CV play as the main influence of win and lose for my team. If this really was the case I would hope to get banned outright since I alone am responsible for so many unenjoyable games for my teammates.

 

cheers!

 

 

[Xevious_Red]

5 minutes ago, witteria said:

 

Ok, below is a screenshot of my Lexington. If we entertain your theory that my dmg is to low. In my lexington it is even lower yet there I have a normal win-loss ratio.

 

To talk about your second point:  even if cv is highly influential as you point it out,why doesnt wargaming ban me outright since cleary I am the sole catalyst of my team losing. Seems quite an Interesting balans decision to make my CV play as the main influence of win and lose for my team. If this really was the case I would hope to get banned outright since I alone am responsible for so many unenjoyable games for my teammates.

 

cheers!

 

 

You do 7k less in a ship that is two tiers lower. In the midway as well you are always top tier, so you never have the luxury of being carried - you have to be one of the main sources of damage for the team.

 

WG never ban anyone based on ability, unless it can be proved they're not a real person, and even then they tend to let it slide "just incase"

 

CV provide the best spotting, some of the highest damage, an ability to self spot without being in danger, unlimited range, able to attack behind islands, and this is on a chassis that can hide safely out of sight.

They can spot for the team, they can actively hunt a hidden ship, their attacks are guided (rockets) and very hard to dodge, they're excellent at stacking DoT.

Regardless of if you like it or not, they are a highly influential ship, with capabilities that can't be mirrored in other classes (a cruiser can cap if the DD is dead, no other ship can have a quick scout from A1 to A10 to find ships).

Additionally, since classes are mirrored, by taking a CV you give the enemy team one, and therefore access to all these amazing abilities.

If their CV is capable of utilising these abilities, while you aren't then yes you put your team at a massive disadvantage. While it wont be solely your fault, by taking a CV and not being very good at it you make life much much harder for your team, to the point where the average player cant really handle the extra needed.

 

Regarding balance, I guess and wanting to be banned, I guess you must have missed the thousands and thousands of threads of people hating on CV as a major cause of ruining games, particularly when your team gets a "bad" one and their team gets a "good" one.

 

It's one of the reasons a vast amount of players hate CV as a class and want them removed from the game

[GarrusBrutus]

55 minutes ago, witteria said:

Got Midway three days ago but I honestly dont know what is up with MM. Every game is a complete blow out.

 

Is this balans? Is this normal? Any tips on how to approach this?

 

Cheers!

I'm sure you were the top xp earner for each and every one of those games, eh?

[ForlornSailor]

50 minutes ago, witteria said:

Ok, below is a screenshot of my Lexington. If we entertain your theory that my dmg is to low. In my lexington it is even lower yet there I have a normal win-loss ratio.

 

Higher tier ships always deal more damage.

For you in general: You arent ready for high tiers yet. Its obvious from your stats. T3/T4 your performance is decent, eventhough already there your damage is a little bit on the light side. And that trend continues up the tiers: Your damage does not increase the way it should and your Winrate drifts towards 40 % - which is pretty much as low as it can get. You just need more experiance, which is no surprise at a little over 1000 battles. Most people get a hang of high tier games between 2000 and 3000 games - slowly. Thats just what Ive seen over and over again. So why dont you hang around T5 to T7 a while? its the same game anyway. Once you push yourself upwards of 50 % Winrate on that Tiers, you can step higher. You gonna have more impact, more damage, more XP and credits and im sure - a higher WR. win win right?

[loppantorkel]

1 hour ago, loppantorkel said:

I'll play a few (5-10 depending on how I feel) shima games now. I'll screenshot the MM, just to see and show.

Played 6 shima games. DD MM appears random, not any of those high number shima games. Every other game had cvs in them. 2 out of 6 games had lower tiered ships than 10.

Not suggesting this says anything more than that the odd high-number shima games aren't a regular occurrence atm at least.

[witteria]

1 hour ago, GarrusBrutus said:

I'm sure you were the top xp earner for each and every one of those games, eh?

 

Honestly no idea, xp doesnt really matter that much since I made it to tier X. 

[witteria]

34 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Higher tier ships always deal more damage.

For you in general: You arent ready for high tiers yet. Its obvious from your stats. T3/T4 your performance is decent, eventhough already there your damage is a little bit on the light side. And that trend continues up the tiers: Your damage does not increase the way it should and your Winrate drifts towards 40 % - which is pretty much as low as it can get. You just need more experiance, which is no surprise at a little over 1000 battles. Most people get a hang of high tier games between 2000 and 3000 games - slowly. Thats just what Ive seen over and over again. So why dont you hang around T5 to T7 a while? its the same game anyway. Once you push yourself upwards of 50 % Winrate on that Tiers, you can step higher. You gonna have more impact, more damage, more XP and credits and im sure - a higher WR. win win right?

 

Decent advice, thanks!

[Spiritus_3]

Hello.
Please make the matchmaker so that player with similar skill and or number of games are put together. It's not enjoyable to play when you have players who dont know, have to postion, angle, when to push, defend and support.
Sometimes ships get destroyed so fast i cant do anything.  This is happening  in all tiers. Mostly is bad in high tiers its not fun, just sad. 
Thank you

[ColonelPete]

18 minutes ago, Spiritus_3 said:

Hello.
Please make the matchmaker so that player with similar skill and or number of games are put together. It's not enjoyable to play when you have players who dont know, have to postion, angle, when to push, defend and support.
Sometimes ships get destroyed so fast i cant do anything.  This is happening  in all tiers. Mostly is bad in high tiers its not fun, just sad. 
Thank you

I do not think it is a good idea to have only good players on one team and only worse players on the enemy team.

And the waiting time to get a full team of good players could be awful.

[Lootboxer]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

I do not think it is a good idea to have only good players on one team and only worse players on the enemy team.

And the waiting time to get a full team of good players could be awful.

This and whom from would those worse players learn? From each other?

 

[Spiritus_3]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

I do not think it is a good idea to have only good players on one team and only worse players on the enemy team.

And the waiting time to get a full team of good players could be awful.

Yeah nobady would like that ! You misunderstood ! This is what is happening now. I meant so the players will be evenly matched. ( Based on games played and WR... ) So it's not like one team is much more experienced as the other. But is probably not gona work, because newbies buy high tier ships...and then get destroyed in 5 mins. I rather wait more time.

 

[ColonelPete]

5 hours ago, Spiritus_3 said:

Yeah nobady would like that ! You misunderstood ! This is what is happening now. I meant so the players will be evenly matched. ( Based on games played and WR... ) So it's not like one team is much more experienced as the other. But is probably not gona work, because newbies buy high tier ships...and then get destroyed in 5 mins. I rather wait more time.

 

And that would not work either. With balanced teams, everyone would have 50% WR and that destroys the metric by which you setup the teams.