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Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

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12 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

But if you think, that bad players hide their stats, then it would only mean, that average stats would even be worse than they are now. 

I know re War Gaming and there stats.

 

I know a player that hides his / her, stats because they are so good, " they " worries he /she,  will get 100% focused and / or accused of cheating .

 

 

  

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8 minutes ago, CaptStevSmith said:

I know re War Gaming and there stats.

 

I know a player that hides his / her, stats because they are so good, " they " worries he /she,  will get 100% focused and / or accused of cheating .

 

 

  

I know that playets as well but if you play game and see that your team loosing 2-4 ships from the beginning and on the end see theirs stats you know it can be theirs poor knowledge, maybe they just want shoot, or happen as well that they don’t realise playing bad. And your WR will go down as well because of them. Most of the time guys with hidden stats are on the bottom after game.

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48 minutes ago, Sambor1966 said:

I know that playets as well but if you play game and see that your team loosing 2-4 ships from the beginning and on the end see theirs stats you know it can be theirs poor knowledge, maybe they just want shoot, or happen as well that they don’t realise playing bad. And your WR will go down as well because of them. Most of the time guys with hidden stats are on the bottom after game.

So are you advocating, that WG make an algorithm in match making, that only enables a player with in the same statistical skill level to play each other ? 

 

Which will open a whole new can of worms about how the " New Matching " is unfair, and how " I was a Unicum player but know, I am a low stats player and can not play with my friends~blar blar " 

 

I am cool with that I will fight any one in the game. 

 

Because I don't care what  " league " I am in, ... The game starts I move My ship and I try and kill all reds best I can, and although it can be very hard ( I admit it ) I try not to play other peoples games for them and endeavour to refrain, from opening My mouth in game chat or if I do, I try to keep it on the tactics at the time. ( focus the shimmer and such like )   ~ Life is simple in WOWS

 

I will admit I have got to a stage where I don't anticipate any help whats so ever, and when it happens I use my complement issue for them players.

 

:cap_tea:

Edited by CaptStevSmith
grammar error
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On 8/16/2019 at 11:27 AM, CaptStevSmith said:

I know re War Gaming and there stats.

 

I know a player that hides his / her, stats because they are so good, " they " worries he /she,  will get 100% focused and / or accused of cheating .

 

 

  

Yet there a people who stream this game daily and have to quite regularly deal with multiple stream snipers, and succeed in winning the majority of the time!.

Doesn't sound like this person has that much confidence in their abilities, i mean it's not like this game has tons of scope for stat padding.

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17 hours ago, KHETTIFER said:

Yet there a people who stream this game daily and have to quite regularly deal with multiple stream snipers, and succeed in winning the majority of the time!.

Doesn't sound like this person has that much confidence in their abilities, i mean it's not like this game has tons of scope for stat padding.

I think " stats padding " does happen, Seal Clubbing in lower tiers is common place,

 

Is it right? <rhetoric> I say its an opportunity,

 

Is it ethical < rhetoric > " Ganking " is not a new idea, Its not so easy in WOWS as it is in some other platforms, I think a player has to decide on his own if its ethical.

 

~

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2 minutes ago, CaptStevSmith said:

I think " stats padding " does happen, Seal Clubbing in lower tiers is common place,

 

Is it right? <rhetoric> I say its an opportunity,

 

Is it ethical < rhetoric > " Ganking " is not a new idea, Its not so easy in WOWS as it is in some other platforms, I think a player has to decide on his own if its ethical.

 

~

Considering the low battle count in Tier I to IV, I think it is rare.

Before WG changed the requirements for missions to Tier V, players played more Tier IV.

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On 8/18/2019 at 6:17 AM, KHETTIFER said:

Yet there a people who stream this game daily and have to quite regularly deal with multiple stream snipers, and succeed in winning the majority of the time!.

Doesn't sound like this person has that much confidence in their abilities, i mean it's not like this game has tons of scope for stat padding.

Many streamers make a delay in stream to avoid stream snipe. 

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I understand that All the players in a match can't be of equal skill. But it is really that hard not to put all the unicums in one side and all the potatoes in the other? 

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Since Ive been having a really really bad time in random battles the past few months because of constantly uncontrollable steamroll defeats. I started thinking about solutions. Why dont we change the MM to +/- 1 and then decrease the teams in each battle to say 8 in each team. Could even make the maps smaller if needed to make it more interesting.

I think the solution to this will be that the smaller teams will easier negate the longer queues with +/- 1 instead of 2 and it will also make the battles easier to carry and less steamrolly. And with smaller maps maybe itll also be more action?

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I think that WG dont have brain to see that every 2 game is a same situation, one side have far better players and other side have 7 players that are [edited]Potato in brain. Only solution that i see for MM that mm is not giving by Avg. WR of players because that WR is crap stats, MM is must have by avg. Damage per Battles in current ship that Player is driving. :)

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WG @MrConway shouldn't allowed grind ships by players with so bad stats over T5 if they can not learn basics. There are more and more players which bring just frustration to the game not fun and pleasure with playing WOWS. Small example from today morning. Guy played on Des Moines and another on Shima torping from second line and killed our Cleveland! Well done.

 

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_18_57.png

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_20_42.png

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_31_32.png

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29 minutes ago, Sambor1966 said:

WG @MrConway shouldn't allowed grind ships by players with so bad stats over T5 if they can not learn basics. There are more and more players which bring just frustration to the game not fun and pleasure with playing WOWS. Small example from today morning. Guy played on Des Moines and another on Shima torping from second line and killed our Cleveland! Well done.

 

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_18_57.png

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_20_42.png

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_31_32.png

Well those bad players that were stuck on low tiers eventually got into T10 (like that DM) but shima.... I'm surprised how he got the T10 with such bad results. Unless he got premiums that have him exp boost (+200% exp boost in 25 battles) and he exchanged dubloons for that. Idk.

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1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well those bad players that were stuck on low tiers eventually got into T10 (like that DM) but shima.... I'm surprised how he got the T10 with such bad results. Unless he got premiums that have him exp boost (+200% exp boost in 25 battles) and he exchanged dubloons for that. Idk.

We can see now each game a lot of players which go suicide, don’t cap if they can, don’t watch minimap and don’t read chat or ignore.. It’s sad that very often games finish after less than 10 minutes.

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Hi,

some days ago I played a ranked match where there were 3 guys of a clan in the opposite team and 1 of them in my team. Actually something like this happened already several times. But whatever, since there are no divisions in this ranked, the other team had an unofficial division of 3 while we got none. Huh.

But apart from this it might even be that the 1 lonely guy is ordered to play extra bad to make it a sure win for the 3 of them - and not a win for just 1.
(And yeah, for whatever reasons he scored the least points. But whatever, I score last place too from time to time even without ranked clan things. :D :D.)
But you see, 4 friends play, 3 win, 1 looses. Balance is +2 stars as an almost sure thing. Even further, from statistics it would mean that each of them earns half a star per match this way. And so ranked would be done after 98 matches.

Of course... this is less likely to happen. But it does happen from time to time and it is pretty much annoying to lose a star this way as a not involved player.

So I ask you to change the MM at least in a way that it evens this by putting the same amount of clan-mates into each team. Or even better, just one of them per match. :D

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I <3 people questioning win rate as a metric of skill, because 'insert random theory about how MM isn't random, presented with newly bought tinfoil hat'. And with how generally bad the xp system is to balance ( especially if you now suddenly want to make that somehow indicative of skill ) nah you're asking for more trouble based on not agreeing with  your win rate representing the skill level you actually seem to posses. XP is the worst metric to use, if not only because WG has never allowed tracking base xp through the external api, and how their XP system is constantly being changed without notice ( they won't even disclose exactly how it works, because they know it would be exploited ). 

 

On 8/16/2019 at 11:01 AM, Sambor1966 said:
Spoiler

But now we can see a lot of players with really low stats. Even with a few thousands of battles. But the worst is also ( just example) like today playing Musashi on my flank Mogador went to fight with Jutland and died quick, cruiser turned back and went behind island, Georgia went to other side of map for  lemingtrain. I didn’t have chance to stay alive for long without spotting and backup. On top of this nine fires! I wish I can do the same to other ships. After match when I saw Mogador stats I just give up! 125 battles 41WR. Overall enemy team had much better stats. I can not do some damage on some ships like before and my stats going down very fast. There is almost no communication at all as well. For me since CV rework everything changed. I like this game but if anything will not change in future I will quit this game. I don’t mind loose games but not like this! 

 

 

You're the other side of the coin. Stop using Matchmaking Monitor to check stats in game, it's useless to you in 99% of cases. Your statement about 'giving up' is exactly what is wrong with tools like those when used by the wrong people. Also, those 'bad streaks' you mention are just as much part of a random number sequence as a 'win streak', and thus are actually perfectly natural and expectable. 

 

On the other hand, if you ment with 'giving up' -> 'I recognized I was getting tilted and I stopped playing because playing tilted which negatively skew my results'? If you said that I should congratulate you.

 

I've raged after 15 game lose streaks, and I've been 'modestly satisfied' with a 25 games win streak. They just happen. And WG is already working more on MM to make sure you're not as often uptiered as you used to be, so MM is already way more friendly then it ever been. 

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On 8/22/2019 at 7:34 AM, Sambor1966 said:

WG @MrConway shouldn't allowed grind ships by players with so bad stats over T5 if they can not learn basics. There are more and more players which bring just frustration to the game not fun and pleasure with playing WOWS. Small example from today morning. Guy played on Des Moines and another on Shima torping from second line and killed our Cleveland! Well done.

 

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_18_57.png

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_20_42.png

Microsoft Edge 22_08_2019 06_31_32.png

This is one of the guys allowing you to be better than 50% WR on the other side

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52 minutes ago, Captain_Hook_ said:

This is one of the guys allowing you to be better than 50% WR on the other side

 Nah this is the guy that thanks to him there are 75-80% unicuums. Less ultra potatoes like that one - less ultra unicuums.

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2 hours ago, Captain_Hook_ said:

This is one of the guys allowing you to be better than 50% WR on the other side

The one of many pressing” full ahead and maybe I can shoot something before my ship will sunk”😉

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4 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

 Nah this is the guy that thanks to him there are 75-80% unicuums. Less ultra potatoes like that one - less ultra unicuums.

 

Sadly I have to say you might be right. I used to think for every 40% we had a couple of 55% to make up for them, but considering the amount of 40%'s I don't think there are enough 55% players around to otherwise even things out a bit. 

 

2 hours ago, Sambor1966 said:

The one of many pressing” full ahead and maybe I can shoot something before my ship will sunk”😉

 

Even those at least will be providing some vision you can use, the worst kind is actually the semi passive one which thinks he's better as he is. I've suffered from it, thinking I shouldn't commit because I doubted every other on my team and thus wouldn't be sure that even if I eventually died they wouldn't throw the game at the end. Anyway, 3xW is already a better player as the one who presses S once or more, or W zero times. 

 

Shooting is not the most important aspect of this game, it's positioning and being able to read the map. 

20 hours ago, McAllistair said:

Hi,

some days ago I played a ranked match where there were 3 guys of a clan in the opposite team and 1 of them in my team. Actually something like this happened already several times. But whatever, since there are no divisions in this ranked, the other team had an unofficial division of 3 while we got none. Huh.

But apart from this it might even be that the 1 lonely guy is ordered to play extra bad to make it a sure win for the 3 of them - and not a win for just 1.
(And yeah, for whatever reasons he scored the least points. But whatever, I score last place too from time to time even without ranked clan things. :D :D.)
But you see, 4 friends play, 3 win, 1 looses. Balance is +2 stars as an almost sure thing. Even further, from statistics it would mean that each of them earns half a star per match this way. And so ranked would be done after 98 matches.

Of course... this is less likely to happen. But it does happen from time to time and it is pretty much annoying to lose a star this way as a not involved player.

So I ask you to change the MM at least in a way that it evens this by putting the same amount of clan-mates into each team. Or even better, just one of them per match. :D

 

This is pretty glorious tbh. Yes, some clans might on TS while playing ranked, and those players may move into rooms with other players they know to be able to voice com. But there are MANY discords around which aren't limited to a certain clan, and it's perfectly possible to do this even when not in a clan. So punishing clan players disproportionally isn't the answer.

Nor is there a problem, you're trying to make it sound like the match been rigged. Show the result screen. How much did the guy from the clan who played solo against 3 of his clan members actually do in game? If you PROOF that he took a loss for his friends, it's actually a bannable offense ( rigging ). Since I don't see any proof. I'm going to assume that one guy did what I would have done -> try to kill as many clan members on the enemy team as possible. 

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Vor 56 Minuten, mtm78 sagte:

Yes, some clans might on TS while playing ranked, and those players may move into rooms with other players they know to be able to voice com. But there are MANY discords around which aren't limited to a certain clan, and it's perfectly possible to do this even when not in a clan. So punishing clan players disproportionally isn't the answer.


Of course not, but it is the least what can be done to prevent even more (unecessary) anger in the frustrationally overloaded ranked.
And it is not about punishing. BTW, punish for what? If changing the MM to prevent this behaviour, so to give them the same chances as everyone else, if this means punishing... what does it mean for normal players then?
It simply means that everyone is punished as of now, except those mentioned clan guys.

My thoughts of course, not my expectations nor any kind of demand. But worth thinking about it...
 

Zitat

Nor is there a problem, you're trying to make it sound like the match been rigged. Show the result screen.


Sure I have the screenshot, I even sent it to the support to ask what is going on there, glitching or whatever. But they said it is all okay, DEVs are aware but I should still post the issue here in the forum to bring it up since support can do nothing about it.

And no, I am not going to publish the screen since I don't want to mock the guys from that clan. I cannot proof that they did something wrong or whatever nor I want to. My intention was to tell about what the MM does and allows - not about any particular hypothetic abusive behaviour. (but FYI he scored 609 while our top 2 scored double of it. For whatever a score can tell... as you wrote in your post above, it is not all about shooting (I add: or "direct, personal" scoring) to win a match - when you support others by just assisting in what way ever. A smoke screen gives 0 points but might save one's a... anchor. From touching the bottom too early. So the score never tells the whole story of the match...)

And no, I don't want to say it was rigged. But it might be possible, yes.
But my point is:
(TL;DR)
when there is a team which plays half way organized by at least 50% (3 out of 6 players of the same clan) then you can tell how this will end.
Overall (-RNG) it is a more or less sure loss for the other team, regardless of how that other lonely guy will play.
So you could argue: maybe he or she is some kind of unicum-guy who is able to change the whole thing. Yeah. Maybe. But then the other three of would be too.
..

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2 hours ago, McAllistair said:

Sure I have the screenshot, I even sent it to the support to ask what is going on there, glitching or whatever. But they said it is all okay, DEVs are aware but I should still post the issue here in the forum to bring it up since support can do nothing about it.

 

Well this indicates there been no rigging involved and the behavior of the guy alone being in the same clan fought like he normally would. 

 

As I said, there doesn't seem to be a real issue here. The only reason supports direct to forum is so you can get told what I just did: I don't see an issue. Maybe if you get 100 people to like your post complaining about it, WG would consider it an issue ( but most likely they still wouldn't ). 

 

2 hours ago, McAllistair said:

Of course not, but it is the least what can be done to prevent even more (unecessary) anger in the frustrationally overloaded ranked.
And it is not about punishing. BTW, punish for what? If changing the MM to prevent this behaviour, so to give them the same chances as everyone else, if this means punishing... what does it mean for normal players then?
It simply means that everyone is punished as of now, except those mentioned clan guys.

 

No. Because as explained, if you actually catch someone rigging a match this is a bannable offense already, and even non clan players can be on the same discord ( back in CBT we had a very loyal and steady group of people on the public WG teamspeak server for instance ). 

 

So yes, it would ONLY punish clan players, because the MM would have to take into account which clan a player belongs and this will increase some of those players battle queue time. While if were on the public TS with a bunch of guys who are not in a clan, or who are all in different clans, we could still 'exploit' this sync drop hole. 

 

Exploit is questionable btw, because sync dropping has already been addressed once iirc ( adding a small random delay I think, but not sure ) and well WG themselves said the actual chance of getting against each other is the same as with each other. 

 

So not only is there no exploit to fix there is also no behavior in game to fix which isn't already a bannable offense ( rigging ).

 

edit: tl&dr getting people who coordinate on one team versus none on the other team results in skewed results -> duh. But it has no direct relation to clans. Even if a hypothetical MM could make queue's / battles where there would be zero instances of multiple clan members being stacked in one team ( and as explained, this wouldn't work ), what prevents me from doing the same with my affiliates from my clan / sub clans / or you know, 'just' friends who don't play in a clan. I can still be in voice com with those people, and MM can't take it into account. 

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Vor 26 Minuten, mtm78 sagte:

 

Well this indicates there been no rigging involved and the behavior of the guy alone being in the same clan fought like he normally would. 

Na, this does not indicate anything. They just said it's a known "feature" and that it is not about the support to change this. If so, then only the DEVs would/could could change this but they would only listen to the forum, not to tickets submitted to the support. Well... at least this is what the support claimed. Although there might be reasons to doubt this. xD But well... this is the official way then, to post it here.
 

Zitat

[...] and even non clan players can be on the same discord ( back in CBT we had a very loyal and steady group of people on the public WG teamspeak server for instance ). 


And you guys clicked on "Battle!" at the same time in competive matches to raise the chance to get into the same(!) match when there were no divisions allowed? (By the way, for what reason they don't allow divisions in this ranked, huh?)

Beside this you focus so much on rigging, I say: this is just one (minor) point. Even more impacting/important is the imbalance - because this _is_ there when those clan guys aren't allocated in an even way into the teams. 2-2 instead 3-1.
This kind of imbalance impacts. If they rig or not. And sure I read about your other posibilites... but... I wasn't aiming about making the MM perfect. :D Just a bit less frustrating - in ranked! Step by step, bit by bit. :D

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1 minute ago, McAllistair said:

And you guys clicked on "Battle!" at the same time in competive matches to raise the chance to get into the same(!) match when there were no divisions allowed?

 

 

There wasn't really a competitive scene back then, so idk what you would consider a competitive match. The first ranked season I think this was still widespread, I never really cared for ranked enough to be sure how long it lasted. I do recall WG changing the ranked queue mechanics to add slight random delays to deter sync dropping because as you say there is a reason divisions are not allowed ( this is logistical btw, nothing else.. ranked isn't skill based or anything ). 

 

WG has always been fine with sync dropping divisions in randoms, referring to that if people fight their fights like they should it doesn't matter ( adding to the math about how many times it would actually work as planned, and not put divisions against each other instead of with each other ). If players see others actually rigging matches, report them and WG will take action. That was my main reference, not limited to ranked only. 

 

3 minutes ago, McAllistair said:

Na, this does not indicate anything. They just said it's a known "feature" and that it's not about the support to change this...

 

So it indicates support didn't find any behavior which violated the terms of usage. 

 

6 minutes ago, McAllistair said:

Beside this you focus so much on rigging, I say: this is just one (minor) point. Even more impacting/important is the imbalance - because this _is_ there when those clan guys aren't allocated in an even way into the teams. 2-2 instead 3-1.

 

I focus on rigging because that is the only thing violating the terms of service. If the match results are fair, they are fair. If I leave my clan and go to another one, if I wanted to coordinate with people from my old clan wouldn't I jump on their discord when I'm in their team?

 

What's next, complain your team get's THESOS guys while the other team has OMNI / MDIV / TTT or any other known competitive clan? The only thing your limit would do is increase queue times for clan players, and if there would be an issue warranting that, you're still only addressing it in regards to people in a single clan which is entirely nonsensical. 

 

But hey, to each their own I guess. 

 

 

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So let's break it down to a simple example: playing with four tier X ships in a tier V battle would not violate your mentioned important terms of service too. But for some reasons WG says: noo...we don't want this. And so they mix a maximum of 2 ranks. And when they do, they don't allocate all the tier 8 carriers in the one team and the tier 6 destroyers in the other. They, respective the MM, balance it. And then, when they don't allow carriers in ranked, then there is no other way to get them into the match.

And so the same should apply to not wanted but (obviously) inofficially existing divisions too. If you can identify them that easily, just by the clan tag...
And if they can't sort out or allocate the discord buddies in a reasonable way (sure, how?) but then at least fix the obvious and allocate the clans in an even way.

 

Zitat

"what's next" "nonsensical" "each their own"


EOD, just take it as given that I wrote my impression and thoughts here and hope that 1 DEV might read it. :D Whatever he or she might think about... but I don't fight about anything in a forum. Except I get paid for - what I'm not. :D

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