Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[mariouus]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

That is what is called a random function. You cannot predict the outcome, not even when you know the code.

And when the function is well coded, not even statistical methods would note the difference. That is what is called random.

The Dispersion is Deterministic - server will always "know" where it is going do place the shots beforehand. And it will do it based on rules set in coding. So in extention, it is controllable, not by RNG, but by Devs. Hell, one can even make some amount of premade "fixed" dispersion patterns and just run them back-to-back. And it will still appare random in the long run. Being Deterministic, when Code is known, it can be predicted actually. 

 

You as a player percive it as being "Random". The fact that player percive it as Random - does not make Dispersion itself Random - it is still Deterministic - made do be percived as Random.

 

And now think what I talked earlier about companies playing with "Perception".

 

 

[SV_Kompresor]

4 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

See a torp boat there?

Bruh. Somers is a torpedo boat

[ThinderChief]

Just now, mariouus said:

The Dispersion is Deterministic - server will always "know" where it is going do place the shots beforehand. And it will do it based on rules set in coding. So in extention, it is controllable, not by RNG, but by Devs. Hell, one can even make some amount of premade "fixed" dispersion patterns and just run them back-to-back. And it will still appare random in the long run. Being Deterministic, when Code is known, it can be predicted actually. 

 

You as a player percive it as being "Random". The fact that player percive it as Random - does not make Dispersion itself Random - it is still Deterministic - made do be percived as Random.

 

And now think what I talked earlier about companies playing with "Perception".

 

 

 

Yeah... "Randomity", the new WoW goddess, I don't think that even NASA would pretend to be capable of developing an algorhytm with "randomity" at its core, for as long as it is written by humans, it won't be random.

[ThinderChief]

1 minute ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Bruh. Somers is a torpedo boat

 

Quote

A destroyer flotilla leader equipped with eight guns that had the largest number of torpedoes per salvo among all the ships of the U.S. Navy.

 

The largest number of torps doesn't make it a torp boat, what you better remember is "equipped with eight guns". 127mm vs 120mm 1800 dmg vs 1,750 Maximum HE Shell Damage. So much for a torp boat.

 

In short, I don't think a Shima or Halland can compete on a cap with that.

[PaxtonQuigly]

1 minute ago, ThinderChief said:

 

 

The largest number of torps doesn't make it a torp boat, what you better remember is "equipped with eight guns". 127mm vs 120mm 1800 dmg vs 1,750 dmg. So much for a torp boat.

Are you insinuating Somers is not a torpboat? Oh dear.

[SV_Kompresor]

1 minute ago, ThinderChief said:

 

 

The largest number of torps doesn't make it a torp boat, what you better remember is "equipped with eight guns". 127mm vs 120mm 1800 dmg vs 1,750 dmg. So much for a torp boat.

It's basically a shimakaze mate.

 

Also you're trying to make it sound like halland is a pure torpedo boat. The thing is quite a good DD hunter itself.

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, mariouus said:

The Dispersion is Deterministic - server will always "know" where it is going do place the shots beforehand. And it will do it based on rules set in coding. So in extention, it is controllable, not by RNG, but by Devs. Hell, one can even make some amount of premade "fixed" dispersion patterns and just run them back-to-back. And it will still appare random in the long run. Being Deterministic, when Code is known, it can be predicted actually. 

 

You as a player percive it as being "Random". The fact that player percive it as Random - does not make Dispersion itself Random - it is still Deterministic - made do be percived as Random.

 

And now think what I talked earlier about companies playing with "Perception".

• The server knows it after the calculation, not before, otherwise it would not need to do the calculation....
• And no programmer is stupid enough to write hundreds of lines of made up numbers. That is why they use a function. It is quicker.
• And no, the code is not enough to predict anything. You need the seed before the next calculation.
• When you cannot distinguish a line of results from random resullts, then that results is for all intents and purposes random.

[mariouus]

43 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

The evidence is this thread. But reading is not your forte

 

43 minutes ago, Aethervoxx said:

"Are you sure that's random?"

Considering that both MM and dispersion has alot of additional limitations, rules and additional potential variables. It is unlikely WG is using any sort of RNG (Random Number Generatior) based calculations (not do mention its needlesly resource hungry)

 

Rather, they have coded presets for MM and perceved Randomness is achived by people queing up at their own time and just assigning non-RNG variable for them.

 

For Dispersion - they probably just divide aiming circle based on Normal Distribution and assign hit percentages for those circles. And just use large set of coded presets for distribution in those circles. No-Random number calculator needed.

[ThinderChief]

3 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

It's basically a shimakaze mate.

 

Also you're trying to make it sound like halland is a pure torpedo boat. The thing is quite a good DD hunter itself.

 

Really? The slowest with the lowest HP is a DD killer...

 

And no this Somers is not a Shima, again it's about the number of torps in the US navy, 12 vs 15, the only advantage of the Shima is an extra 900HP, not the rest of the specs, now instead of arguing in the void, fit your Halland for torps and go take one of those down on a cap, then come back to us to tell us you get yourself a kill.

[Aethervoxx]

2 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Rather, they have coded presets for MM 

I agree. WoWS (WG) has coded 'presets' for their MM. There is no doubt, imho, of that.

[SV_Kompresor]

13 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

 Really? Thjje slowest with the lowest HP is a DD killer...

Yeah...can you imagine what it would be like if it had a heal? OP right?

 

13 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

And no this Somers is not a Shima, again it's about the number of torps in the US navy, 12 vs 15, the only advantage of the Shima is an extra 900HP, not the rest of the specs

Yes, yes she is a US shimakaze.

 

13 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

fit your Halland for torps and go take one of those down on a cap, then come back to us to tell us you get yourself a kill.

Easy (why would I spec it just for torps though if I wanted to go DD hunting?). Now why don't you take a gun specced somers and go hunt down gunboats and tell us how many you kill?

[ThinderChief]

Just now, Aethervoxx said:

I agree. WoWS (WG) has coded 'presets' for their MM. There is no doubt, imho, of that.

So this can perfectly involve nerfring, a good ewxample:

 

One play an Operation, Aegis, wait 30mn or something like it then try again, it might go well twice but the third time all the bots are going to fire focus on you, even if you're in the middle of the pack, so randomity is a myth.

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, mariouus said:

 

Considering that both MM and dispersion has alot of additional limitations, rules and additional potential variables. It is unlikely WG is using any sort of RNG (Random Number Generatior) based calculations (not do mention its needlesly resource hungry)

 

Rather, they have coded presets for MM and perceved Randomness is achived by people queing up at their own time and just assigning non-RNG variable for them.

 

For Dispersion - they probably just divide aiming circle based on Normal Distribution and assign hit percentages for those circles. And just use large set of coded presets for distribution in those circles. No-Random number calculator needed.

RNG for the MM is not calculated, it comes from the players pressing the battle button. WG cannot influence that.

And if they would use percentages, they would use a random number generator...

And no, RNG is not much math, when you compare it to the constant calculation of sighting between ships, distance, speed and position for 24 ships in a match.

9 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

 

Really? Thjje slowest with the lowest HP is a DD killer...

 

And no this Somers is not a Shima, again it's about the number of torps in the US navy, 12 vs 15, the only advantage of the Shima is an extra 900HP, not the rest of the specs, now instead of arguing in the void, fit your Halland for torps and go take one of those down on a cap, then come back to us to tell us you get yourself a kill.

When one does not notice that she has one of the worst gun DPM of all Tier X DD and still considers her gunboat, then your problems become obvious.

[PaxtonQuigly]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:08 PM, ThinderChief said:

Want to have a look at the winrates of the top DDs for a laugh? Let's.

Did you take into account for which resource those ships are available? It seems you did not. Steel is hard to come by and therefore mostly bought and played by seasoned veterans, pushing the winrate. So judging a ships strength based on wows-numbers statistics is useless.

On 9/27/2021 at 10:08 PM, ThinderChief said:

*edit*

Always those tryhards ruining the games eh? Totally not the thousands upon thousands of oblivous players who spend hundreds of euro's without a sliver of gameknowledge because they want to see ARP Yamato guns go boom boom. Nooooo, that can not be the cause of the ever increasing levels of monetization. It must be those few unicums. lol

 

 

[ThinderChief]

Just now, SV_Kompresor said:

Yeah...can you imagine what it would be like if it had a heal? OP right?

 

Just as well considering you're slower than everyone in the game and can't take fire...

 

Quote

Yes, yes she is a US shimakaze.

 

No she ain't I wonder if you even tried to play a Shima instead of Clemson, Akizuki and Småland, stiff with " Ridiculous rate of fire and DPM "...

[Aethervoxx]

16 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

RNG for the MM is not calculated, it comes from the players pressing the battle button. WG cannot influence that.

Players press the battle button, yes, but MM makes up the teams so WG can influence that. This is exactly where the 'arranging' begins. It continues with the hit resolutions in the battle.

[SV_Kompresor]

3 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

and can't take fire...

You can because you have a heal.

 

3 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

No she ain't I wonder if you even tried to play a Shima instead of Clemson, Akizuki and Småland, stiff with " Ridiculous rate of fire and DPM "...

Are you aware that somers's reload is even slower than shima's?

[Aethervoxx]

5 minutes ago, PaxtonQuigly said:

the cause of the ever increasing levels of monetization.

Easy answer  - exclusively due to the utter Greed  of WG to the   detriment of this game.  

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, Aethervoxx said:

Players press the battle button, yes, but MM makes up the teams so WG can influence that. this is exactly where the 'arranging' begins. It continues with the hit resolutions in the battle.

And still there is no RNG calculation involved.

Players are put into multiple queues (except Tier I) when they push the battle button.

The queue that results in a valid match setup first, is the one were a player fights in.

The validity is checked by the known rules.

[PaxtonQuigly]

Just now, Aethervoxx said:

Easy answer  - exclusively due to the utter Greed  of WG to the   detriment of this game.  

Exactly. And which segment of the playerbase is the easiest to influence and most profitable? Indeed, casual gamers with plenty of disposable income. This game isnt marketed towards the few college kids hunting purple stats. They are not the golden ticket wargaming is after.

[ThinderChief]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:43 PM, PaxtonQuigly said:

Did you take into account for which resource those ships are available? It seems you did not. Steel is hard to come by and therefore mostly bought and played by seasoned veterans, pushing the winrate. So judging a ships strength based on wows-numbers statistics is useless.

 

Blah, another one god-like unicum lecturing other on to do... Like the way you get this ship has anything to do with win rate, not everyone goes for the obvious or most pop, the fact is, your bunch never chose the weakest one but the opposite, in short you chose your ship for your winrate not because you like them.

 

Quote

Always those tryhards ruining the games eh? Totally not the thousands upon thousands of oblivous players who spend hundreds of euro's without a sliver of gameknowledge because they want to see ARP Yamato guns go boom boom. Nooooo, that can not be the cause of the ever increasing levels of monetization. It must be those few unicums. lol

 

*edit*

[ColonelPete]

9 minutes ago, ThinderChief said:

And I noticed that you couldn't help trying to imply that your knowledge of the game is so great. Seriously? There is 13.55% difference between our gun hit ratio and of course the that justiofies the 29.89% difference in winrate, you're so modest.

Games are not decided by gun hit ratio. Your lack of understanding what decides battles and what hit ratios mean is not surprising in relation to your posts.

[PaxtonQuigly]

On 9/27/2021 at 10:59 PM, ThinderChief said:

*edit*

Why are you being so rude and belittling? I simply try to explain something in a polite manner and you respond with mockery and insults.

On 9/27/2021 at 10:59 PM, ThinderChief said:

*edit*

How so? Don't we see hordes of really bad players in newly released ships every month? Arent those major cashcows for Wargaming? Or is Wargaming running off the expenditures of a few dozen unicum ego trippers buying their way to 65% wr?

On 9/27/2021 at 10:59 PM, ThinderChief said:

*edit*

I believe I know a thing or two about the game yes, which i would happily share with you but you do not strike me as the inquisitive type.

 

[inkedsoulz]

3 hours ago, ThinderChief said:

 

Really? The slowest with the lowest HP is a DD killer...

 

And no this Somers is not a Shima, again it's about the number of torps in the US navy, 12 vs 15, the only advantage of the Shima is an extra 900HP, not the rest of the specs, now instead of arguing in the void, fit your Halland for torps and go take one of those down on a cap, then come back to us to tell us you get yourself a kill.

 

This is full gunboat specc Somer:

 

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PASD510&modules=11111&upgrades=123221&commander=PCW001&skills=6445088&ar=100&consumables=111&pos=0

 

as you can see on the HE raw DPM section, this boat has 191.388 raw HE dpm.

 

 

Then we have full gunboat specc Halland:

 

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PWSD110&modules=11111&upgrades=123221&commander=PCW001&skills=6445090&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

 

as you can see on the HE raw DPM section, this boat has 279.107 raw HE dpm.

 

Since u said something about bringing a full torpedo specc Halland, ill give her DPM aswell:

 

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PWSD110&modules=11111&upgrades=124222&commander=PCW001&skills=4417696&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

 

as you can see on the HE raw DPM section, this boat has 210.000 raw HE dpm.

 

 

 

So, we reach the conclusion that in a 1 vs 1 cap contest fight, the Halland gun build(279.107dpm) destroys the Somers(191.388dpm).

Even in the worst situation and your Halland is full torpedo specc, you still have 210.000 dpm, and that is still superior than the Somers(191.288dpm), it might be a closer fight, but Halland still wins.

 

 

 

 

Halland is a great ship, you build it for guns and superintendent, and you will have a machine with great DPM, great survivality, decent torps and great AA.

 

[Aethervoxx]

MM Balance.  Where? When? What (balance)? Why (balance)? Who (with whom)?