Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

And again, point is that Wargaming does not have any reason to fix either matchmaking, map design or game mechanics. They are making game more irritating, more boring and objectively inferior with every new iteration simply for the sake of profit.

Which has nothing to do with MM manipulation.

1 minute ago, mariouus said:

But its not different - it is exactly the same.

Nope. Has nothing to do with MM...

 

[mariouus]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Nope. Has nothing to do with MM...

It does not have anything to do with MM. But it is the same

 

The thing is. WG is using alot, like really alot, methods that is usually used in Gambling and somewhat shady Marketing schemes. One does not really have do look too far, or analyse too deep do see them.

 

It is somewhat unlikely that they have not implimented them in MM in one or another form. Because there is buck to make. Why should they not? Specially, its completly undetectable - its server side. And in the end of the day - even heavily controlled and scripted MM, with some "Random" factors will still appeare "Random" in the long run.

 

For example - those Streakes. Can it be completly Random occurrence - ofcourse it can. Can it be a unwanted sideeffect of Scripted and Controlled MM - it actually can. Unless WG lets us check and Analyse their Servers - it is impossible do tell.

 

Basically this Topic is 232. pages of posts - that neither side can prove or disprove. The fact that you generally say "I have/I have not or I think/I think not as a proof - is funny, but in real world as no weight behind it. Just like my posts in fact - only thing is, that I do not try do pass my opinion as a Proof - I am completly willing do admit - I do not have any. I am merly pointing out, that those kind of thing can be done - and in many cases in industry have been done.

[Pushi2]

MMftw Collection

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, mariouus said:

It does not have anything to do with MM.

Good to agree on something, but why bring it up in the first place then?

 

1 hour ago, mariouus said:

It is somewhat unlikely that they have not implimented them in MM in one or another form. Because there is buck to make. Why should they not?

Because it does not make a buck, unless it is noticeable.

 

I find it funny that WG is accused of incompetence nearly every day, but despite that people think that WG is skilled enough to implement an unnoticeable MM manipulation that at the same time subliminaly encourages people to spend more money...

 

I wish people would make their minds up. Is WG incompetent or competent?

[Pukovnik7]

2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Which has nothing to do with MM manipulation.

It actually does, because it explains why they may try to manipulate the matchmaking. Of course, that is no proof they are actually doing it.

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

It actually does, because it explains why they may try to manipulate the matchmaking. Of course, that is no proof they are actually doing it.

No, it does not. To the contrary, it shows that WG has many options to reach their goal.

[mariouus]

30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I find it funny that WG is accused of incompetence nearly every day, but despite that people think that WG is skilled enough to implement an unnoticeable MM manipulation that at the same time subliminaly encourages people to spend more money...

Nobody have accused WG in incompetense in making money. Incompetence in Balancing - yes. Predatory monetazation - yes. But never incomeptence in making money. 

30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I wish people would make their minds up. Is WG incompetent or competent?

Or maybe you can quote me, where I have called WG incompetent in making Money?

30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Because it does not make a buck, unless it is noticeable.

Where did I sayed unnoticable? Suddle.

 

I talked about possibility of making some ships more (or less) enjoyabe by changing certain factors on the fly (this is completly factual - WG can change stats on every ships every single battle when needed).Do make gameplay perceivably less or more enjoyable depending on the goal. This is rather opposite of unnoticable. Don t you agree? It cant be, nor does it have to be, blatant. Like I sayed myself - many would not notice, many would not care - but even if 5 out of 100 percive it like that - it would add-up with fairly large playerbase. With very little effort. Lets be honest - quite a few people already think that Premium gives ingame performance boost - you need very small boost for those guys to sell the idea.

 

Suddle Changes in "experience" (manipulating) do meet their goals - depending on situation - is something that as been used in Gambling business for ages - cant say it does not work.

 

WG, as any big business, has a priority of making money. And in order do make most - one has to really streamline balance between enjoyment and frustration. And MM would be a really big portion where they can do it. Would be weird it they would not use it.

[ColonelPete]

11 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Nobody have accused WG in incompetense in making money. Incompetence in Balancing - yes. Predatory monetazation - yes. But never incomeptence in making money.

It is a change of the game mechanics, not just marketing.

12 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Where did I sayed unnoticable? Suddle.

When it is noticeable, you can measure it.

In 6 years I have not seen one attempt to measure it, because people know they cannot do it.

14 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Don t you agree?

No. How can I see the difference to bad RNG?

Bad RNG is common. Getting bad RNG does not make me spend money or I would need to spend money every three days and then wonder why it is still happening --> realizing pretty quickly that spending money does not change your RNG.

16 minutes ago, mariouus said:

quite a few people already think that Premium gives ingame performance boost - you need very small boost for those guys to sell the idea.

Thanks to people like you, there is no boost needed.

As I wrote:

4 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

And giving the impression of manipulation is the job of you guys.

There are probably quite a few people who buy premium because of that, just to make sure. WG should pay you for keeping these tinfoil hat theories alive

[mariouus]

6 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

When it is noticeable, you can measure it.

In 6 years I have not seen one attempt to measure it, because people know they cannot do it.

And compare to what? 

 

There is no actial "RNG" in gamecode. Everything is scripted anyway. It is copletly possible do scrips more "frustrating" game experience with-out exiting "Stated RNG spread".

 

But ofcourse, WG would not do that. Because nobody hase evered tampered with a thing that is effectivly unmeasurable...

 

6 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

No. How can I see the difference to bad RNG?

Bad RNG is common. Getting bad RNG does not make me spend money or I would need to spend money every three days and then wonder why it is still happening --> realizing pretty quickly that spending money does not change your RNG.

Where did I say that it would be constat? Hell, why should it be constant.

 

If you have not had Premium for some time, it is pointless trying do manipulate you like that. In order do manipulate somebody, they have do percive the difference.And if you allready have Premium why should anybody care about you anyway?

 

7 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Thanks to people like you, there is no boost needed.

As I wrote:

Yes, because person saying that you can be manipulated is so good for business.

 

If you actually notice - in no point did I say that having a Premium, gives you any advantages. Business percpective is - if you allready have it, why should anybody care. Manipulation only works, when person could percive the difference. It only works when it just ended. 

 

But yes, no business ever tryes do influnce customer into extending their subscription. Oh wait, they do...

 

I am talking about extremly common business practice here.

 

Question here is

1.Can it be done? Yes, mechanics for doing so is actually hardcoded into game.

2.Would it fall in line with known business practice? Yes. "Frustrating" or "Tepting" customers into extending subscription is very common.

3.Is it hard to do vs possible gain No, very easy infact - meaning that even if it only works for comparative few - it is still very cost-effective.

 

8 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

As I wrote

Ofcourse your right... Because arguing that well established business practice would not work. When only argument why it would not is - Because "I thinks so" is extremly reliable indeed...

[ColonelPete]

12 hours ago, mariouus said:

And compare to what? 

 

There is no actial "RNG" in gamecode. Everything is scripted anyway. It is copletly possible do scrips more "frustrating" game experience with-out exiting "Stated RNG spread".

 

....

 

As I told you, short term manipulation will not encourage anyone to buy premium, since short term variations in outcome are normal for the game. Or in other words, WG would not need to do anything, because it happens anyway, naturally.

 

And I suggest you look at the dispersion model before you claim there is no RNG in the code...

1 hour ago, ThinderChief said:

 

Really?

 

....

 

Except that the majority of players do NOT have a winning streak in their new premium ship.

 

Yes, some players are "nerfed", but not by the game. They are just bad players. And when you look at them playing, you know why they get bad results.

 

[mariouus]

58 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And I suggest you look at the dispersion model before you claim there is no RNG in the code...

I have.

 

Dispersion is designed only do appare Random. Meaning that shell placment is fully controlled by coding do confirm do "given" rules for"Randomness". 

 

The fact is, Dispersion is not Random AT ALL - it is fully Deterministic. Its apparent Random outcome comes from rules and that only makes it appare "Random".

Meaning: game will follow the rules and places "hits" deterministicly. For outside viewer, who do not know the given rule of placement, it will appare "RNG" because it is not possible do determin where it will land with-out knowing the rules. Random - not because it is "Random", it is controlled and Coded, but because it appares Random. And something appearing "Random" in the larger sample size - does not mean it is un-tampered. 

 

Beauty of "Random" is that quite a bit of tampering can be made. Because it can be just written-off as "Random" extreme. And if you do not go overboard, it will also appeare "Random" in big sample-sizes, well inside marging of error. How players percive stuff will vary however.

 

Dispersion in most of the games is designed like that. Beacuse it is faster and less resource consuming - than trying do impliment something that can pass as "Random". 

For example: in WoT aming circle is subdivided and there is separatly controlled probabily (percent) of "hitting" any given subdivided circle. Change the Rule - Change the Random factor. 

 

58 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

As I told you, short term manipulation will not encourage anyone to buy premium, since short term variations in outcome are normal for the game. Or in other words, WG would not need to do anything, because it happens anyway, naturally.

So, I would kind of advice you to take atleast small glance at different studies (from rather reputable organizations I might add) and theories about the subject. Your un-argumented "As I told you" somewhat pales when compared to them. Most companies would rather not wait for something do happen naturally.

 

There are many-many resources accessible in the internet. Not do mention - they make rather interesting read. I was rather surprised with some methods that are being employed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ColonelPete]

10 minutes ago, mariouus said:

I have.

 

Dispersion is designed only do appare Random. Meaning that shell placment is fully controlled by coding do confirm do "given" rules for"Randomness". 

 

The fact is, Dispersion is not Random AT ALL - it is fully Deterministic. Its apparent Random outcome comes from rules and that only makes it appare "Random".

Meaning: game will follow the rules and places "hits" deterministicly. For outside viewer, who do not know the given rule of placement, it will appare "RNG" because it is not possible do determin where it will land with-out knowing the rules. Random - not because it is "Random", it is controlled and Coded, but because it appares Random. And something appearing "Random" in the larger sample size - does not mean it is un-tampered.

That is what is called a random function. You cannot predict the outcome, not even when you know the code.

And when the function is well coded, not even statistical methods would note the difference. That is what is called random.

10 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Most companies would rather not wait for something do happen naturally.

There is no need for waiting. It happens daily, especially to inexperienced players.

[Aethervoxx]

51 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

when you know the code.

The only one who knows the code  (for the MM) is WG. WG's  so-called random MM is actually a patented code & they can say whatever they want about it (& they do).

 My take on WG random MM is the following;

"Over here we have our random MM generator."

"Green rated WoWS player, Green rated WoWS player, Green rated WoWS player, Green rated WoWS player, etc on the one team." 

Red rated WoWS player, Red rated WoWS player, Red rated WoWS player, Red rated woWS player, etc on the other team."

"Are you sure that's random?"

"That's the problem with  WoWS randomness. You can never be sure."

[ColonelPete]

On 9/27/2021 at 9:14 PM, Aethervoxx said:

The only one who knows the code  (for the MM) is WG. WG's  so-called random MM is actually a patented code & they can say whatever they want about it (& they do).

 My take on WG random MM is the following;

We already established that you have no idea how patents work or what random is.

[Aethervoxx]

5 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

We already established that you have no idea how patents work or what random is.

'We'? You & who else? Are you using the royal (pain in the rear) 'we', Pete? Another blanket statement from you, Pete, without any corroborating evidence - just your delusions. 'We'? ROFL

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, Aethervoxx said:

'We'? You & who else? Are you using the royal (pain in the rear) 'we', Pete? Another blanket statement from you, Pete, without any corroborating evidence - just your delusions. 'We'? ROFL

The evidence is this thread. But reading is not your forte.

[Aethervoxx]

12 minutes ago, Aethervoxx said:

The only one who knows the code  (for the MM) is WG. WG's  so-called random MM is actually a patented code & they can say whatever they want about it (& they do).

 My take on WG random MM is the following;

"Over here we have our random MM generator."

"Green rated WoWS player, Green rated WoWS player, Green rated WoWS player, Green rated WoWS player, etc on the one team." 

Red rated WoWS player, Red rated WoWS player, Red rated WoWS player, Red rated woWS player, etc on the other team."

"Are you sure that's random?"

"That's the problem with  WoWS randomness. You can never be sure."

 

[Bear__Necessities]

On 9/27/2021 at 5:33 PM, ThinderChief said:

*edit*

So why can players achieve almost a 70% WR solo in silver line ships without buying a single premium. And why does WG supposedly single out special little snowflakes for bad MM.... and not others. 

 

You need to put the foil hat away. 

 

And it's no wonder you are chat banned. I give it a couple of posts and it'll be a forum ban the way you've started in this thread. 

[Aethervoxx]

Just now, ColonelPete said:

The evidence is this thread. But reading is not your forte.

Point it out, Sherlock

[Aethervoxx]

6 minutes ago, Bear__Necessities said:

So why can players achieve almost a 70% WR solo in silver line ships without buying a single premium.

Point out these silver line ship  players by name & profile screenshots then Bear__Necessities. You want to play the 70% solo WR card then show your proof - you said 'players' (that's plural) so show us

& make sure they haven't bought even one premium - you say that too

 

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, Aethervoxx said:

Point it out, Sherlock

You did not even understand it back then. What is the point? But if you are interested you just have to find my answer to the last time you posted that nonesense.

[Aethervoxx]

1 minute ago, ColonelPete said:

You did not even understand it back then. What is the point?

ROFL. You can't, can you Pete? LOL So now you back out of your falsehood with your tail between your legs. LOL. Col Pete reputation for integrity = 0  ('zero'). ROFL

[SV_Kompresor]

19 minutes ago, Aethervoxx said:

Point out these silver line ship  players by name & profile screenshots then Bear__Necessities. You want to play the 70% solo WR card then show your proof - you said 'players' (that's plural) so show us

& make sure they haven't bought even one premium - you say that too

 

I've never actually bought any premium ships on this account directly. The only two ships I spent money on (tirpitz and murmansk) were recieved as gifts.

[Bear__Necessities]

5 minutes ago, Aethervoxx said:

Point out these silver line ship  players by name & profile screenshots then Bear__Necessities. You want to play the 70% solo WR card then show your proof - you said 'players' (that's plural) so show us

& make sure they haven't bought even one premium - you say that too

 

Vasili_One_Bonk_Only on NA. 

 

It's my account. I got a free Sims and Vanguard from a SC. 

 

All that losing I do. Ohhh all that MM woe....

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, Aethervoxx said:

ROFL. You can't, can you Pete? LOL So now you back out of your falsehood with your tail between your legs. LOL. Col Pete reputation for integrity = 0  ('zero'). ROFL

Why should I do what you are too lazy to do?

And since you downvoted these posts, you should know my answers anyway.