Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[DFens_666]

10 minutes ago, Takethatyoubeast said:

Does anyone know how the “split” into teams happens

 

- Maximum one division difference between teams

- Attempt to split same nations between the teams, so lets say there is an Iowa and a Georgia, then they (can/should?) get split up between the teams. Its not same ships, only nations matter, but even then its not always accurate IIRC. That can produce weird stuff like one team getting 3 Stalingrads and the other get 3 Smolensk, just as an example.

[ColonelPete]

36 minutes ago, Takethatyoubeast said:

Does anyone know how the “split” into teams happens

Had a mare of a day today with lots of sub 42% WR players but if they are counted the same way as someone in the same class and tier of ship but with a 62% WR it’s already going to be hard slog 

The MM fills the slots one after the other with players, who clicked the battle button.

[bloodynicknames]

17 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

The MM fills the slots one after the other with players, who clicked the battle button.

hahahahaha

yeah, sure, and the earth is flat. 

 

i'm still baffled by the fact that there's still people around failing to grasp how rigged it is. 

[ColonelPete]

2 minutes ago, bloodynicknames said:

hahahahaha

yeah, sure, and the earth is flat. 

 

i'm still baffled by the fact that there's still people around failing to grasp how rigged it is. 

I am still baffled that people still follow that made up theory without having any proof...

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, ColonelPete said:

I am still baffled that people still follow that made up theory without having any proof...

Guess that happens when people don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion. 

[geschlittert]

1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

hahahahaha

yeah, sure, and the earth is flat. 

 

i'm still baffled by the fact that there's still people around failing to grasp how rigged it is. 

Cant be your fault, am i right? Everyone but you is wrong :)

[SodaBubbles]

16 hours ago, bloodynicknames said:

hahahahaha

yeah, sure, and the earth is flat. 

 

i'm still baffled by the fact that there's still people around failing to grasp how rigged it is. 

its obviously not rigged. constructed with the usual WG contempt for the players, but not rigged

[ImTryingButYouDontHelp]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:57 AM, SodaBubbles said:

its obviously not rigged. constructed with the usual WG contempt for the players, but not rigged

I believe you mean "with the usual WG ineptitude"  And yes, it's as rigged as the Santa Makarov crates.

[ImTryingButYouDontHelp]

1 hour ago, RiggedSantaCrateGuy said:

I believe you mean "with the usual WG ineptitude"  And yes, it's as rigged as the Santa Makarov crates.

 

The level of edited* of some players at ranked is appalling, tbh. If WG thinks this is fun, it confirms they don't even play their own game.

 

edit: watch the language

[SodaBubbles]

14 hours ago, RiggedSantaCrateGuy said:

I believe you mean "with the usual WG ineptitude"  And yes, it's as rigged as the Santa Makarov crates.

Not really. Consider how many possible combinations of 14 players in teams of 7x7 there are, and then how many will result in balanced teams. WG would have to goose the MM quite a bit in order to get balanced teams -- especially when you consider elements such as radar and rank of players in Ranked.

A couple of years ago I collected two data sets for a total of 1000 games, and found that if the number of radars is less than 5, the team with the +1 advantage in radar wins 60% of the time. Ditto for Ranked players -- a +1 in players with the old Rank system rank of 5 or less means a 60% win rate (I dont think the new system means as much). I dont even have to go into divs for you.

A side issue is that the devs don't even know how to think about the problem because they dont play the game. One of the devs, I think Sub_O, said that the flood of radar was not a problem because sonar and radar ships together were not imbalanced -- the devs think sonar and radar are a single category. LOL.

But the main issue is that because there are so many possible combinations, the vast majority result in collapse teams, while only a minority offer fun, balanced gameplay -- and WG's business model depends on having short matches and collapses. Shorter matches mean better usage of costly server time and players back in the queue more rapidly. That is why we have detonations, the CV plague, HE spammers in smoke, and choked, channeled maps with clunky tall islands, all of which are horrible for game play but which WG loves because those shorten matches.

The business model running on churn means that the queue is the most important thing for WG, not the players.

In sum, in order for the MM to change, WG would have to have a different business model, one that nurtured good relationships with the playerbase and had a strong customer orientation that gave some care to game play. Instead, they have made it all about the churn. They don't care, and the MM is living evidence of it.

[Besserwisser3000]

Another day in the life of high quality MM made by WG.

 

I will surely recommend this game to friends.

But hey, at least the queue time was really short LOL

 

[Mr_Putyu]

Dear devs; Is it really edited* hard to balance players according to their winrate at least? Are you really this incompetent edited* who cannot even check 1 simple characteristic of the queued users and sort them out on the fly?

 

Playing on a loosing side for a few rounds are edited* frustrating. It is not much better experience to be on the winning side either when you are running for the damage and kill.

 

Lots of people are fed up and leaving the game but who cares until there is some edited* who pays for this crapshow and buy a single ship for the money of a complete game -btw I hold them completely edited* but it is their money to waste.

 

Even your contributors are criticizing you but you just ignore them and the player base as long ois you get the money from the transactions.

 

Edits: watch your language please

 

 

[DFens_666]

39 minutes ago, Mr_Putyu said:

Dear devs; Is it really f..king hard to balance players according to their winrate at least?

 

- Balance teams by WR

- Everyone gets 50% WR

- Balancing by WR is now useless, because good and bad players are both having 50% WR

then what?

[Camperdown]

14 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

- Balance teams by WR

- Everyone gets 50% WR

- Balancing by WR is now useless, because good and bad players are both having 50% WR

then what?

Been there, done that many times in this thread.

Use ELO system or make 5 skill classes you can promote to/demote from. Kinda like current ranked but then based on WR.

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, Camperdown said:

Been there, done that many times in this thread.

Use ELO system or make 5 skill classes you can promote to/demote from. Kinda like current ranked but then based on WR.

 

I just think, the issue is not so much difference in player skill level, that makes games so horribly unfun. Its the attitude of the players, who just suicide like bots (or are actual bots). They use every excuse in the book to suicide and get into the next game. So some players will still have to deal with those individuals.

- Using MMM, there is some discrepency between teams -> "ITS LOST, I SUICIDE/LEAVE GAME/BE AFK"

- Teammate doesnt do what they want -> "I SUICIDE, ITS LOST"

- They lose 1 or 2 ships first... -> same as above

- Being lowtier -> same as above

- Straight up suiciding into the enemies -> "noob team, no support"

 

What does putting them into different groups help with their attitude? It doesnt. They can be in a game, where everyone is 47-48% WR, and they will still yolo when they are lowtier -2. After that, next guy goes yolo because first guy yoloed...

And this attitude has gotten worse over the years. This didnt happen like 3-4 years ago, atleast not in the amount ive seen in the last 2 years.

Not to mention, we didnt even go into totaly inexperienced players with T8-9-10 ships because WG lets you buy them with money, what could possibly go wrong. If you add all things together, you get the state of the game we have now.

[GarrusBrutus]

2 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

This didnt happen like 3-4 years ago, atleast not in the amount ive seen in the last 2 years.

Remember where we come from. If people behaved then like they do now, the game would be dead.

[Excavatus]

7 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Remember where we come from. If people behaved then like they do now, the game would be dead.

RANGER AGAINST TAIHO!!! 

Thats a crime against humanity!!! and I like it 

[DFens_666]

9 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Remember where we come from. If people behaved then like they do now, the game would be dead.

 

That happens when everything is perceived as unfair, even when it comes to individual player skill.

[Camperdown]

4 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

I just think, the issue is not so much difference in player skill level, that makes games so horribly unfun. Its the attitude of the players, who just suicide like bots (or are actual bots). They use every excuse in the book to suicide and get into the next game. So some players will still have to deal with those individuals.

- Using MMM, there is some discrepency between teams -> "ITS LOST, I SUICIDE/LEAVE GAME/BE AFK"

- Teammate doesnt do what they want -> "I SUICIDE, ITS LOST"

- They lose 1 or 2 ships first... -> same as above

- Being lowtier -> same as above

- Straight up suiciding into the enemies -> "noob team, no support"

 

What does putting them into different groups help with their attitude? It doesnt. They can be in a game, where everyone is 47-48% WR, and they will still yolo when they are lowtier -2. After that, next guy goes yolo because first guy yoloed...

And this attitude has gotten worse over the years. This didnt happen like 3-4 years ago, atleast not in the amount ive seen in the last 2 years.

Not to mention, we didnt even go into totaly inexperienced players with T8-9-10 ships because WG lets you buy them with money, what could possibly go wrong. If you add all things together, you get the state of the game we have now.

You have got a valid point. My assumption would be that there is at least a correlation between attitude and winning battles. Of course some people with a crap attitude will still win a lot, but I think that would be a minority. People that consistently perform well would on average have a better attitude as well. And I think there would likely be a second order effect too: as the meta becomes less crappy, players start to behave better too.

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 6 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

 

I just think, the issue is not so much difference in player skill level, that makes games so horribly unfun. Its the attitude of the players, who just suicide like bots (or are actual bots). They use every excuse in the book to suicide and get into the next game. So some players will still have to deal with those individuals.

- Using MMM, there is some discrepency between teams -> "ITS LOST, I SUICIDE/LEAVE GAME/BE AFK"

- Teammate doesnt do what they want -> "I SUICIDE, ITS LOST"

- They lose 1 or 2 ships first... -> same as above

- Being lowtier -> same as above

- Straight up suiciding into the enemies -> "noob team, no support"

 

What does putting them into different groups help with their attitude? It doesnt. They can be in a game, where everyone is 47-48% WR, and they will still yolo when they are lowtier -2. After that, next guy goes yolo because first guy yoloed...

And this attitude has gotten worse over the years. This didnt happen like 3-4 years ago, atleast not in the amount ive seen in the last 2 years.

Not to mention, we didnt even go into totaly inexperienced players with T8-9-10 ships because WG lets you buy them with money, what could possibly go wrong. If you add all things together, you get the state of the game we have now.

 

If a yolo edgelord does that regularly, it will show in the stats, i.e. push them down.

Therefore, he will not rise. So I don`t see the point there.

 

The amount of bad players at T8-10 is horrible as it is already, I don`t see it become any worse with such a system.

What could possible be worse than getting 5-10 game losing streaks and permanent roflstomps, win and lose?

 

I just don`t get the defenders of the current MM. It is obvious that this game operates very similar to a gacha game: they make playing for rewards (e.g. the zf-6) frustrating for people with little time but money so those people spend more than a bit on this game. The whole MM is operating in a way that maximizes frustration. Nothing else. I have never seen such a thing in another game. Never played another game where I felt like "[edited]this" after 2-3 minutes  into the game, because I can already see it going south.

 

I would welcome ANY change to the current MM system. But it has become clear to me that WG is not clueless. They are doing it on purpose to milk customers.

And that, dear ladies and gentlemen, is just like most gacha games operate. A shame.

[ColonelPete]

9 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

The amount of bad players at T8-10 is horrible as it is already, I don`t see it become any worse with such a system.

What could possible be worse than getting 5-10 game losing streaks and permanent roflstomps, win and lose?

Skill based MM does not protect you from 5-10 matches losing streaks.

But it makes winning streaks much rarer for skilled players.

 

That makes playing for rewards for these players more frustrating.

[DFens_666]

19 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

If a yolo edgelord does that regularly, it will show in the stats, i.e. push them down.

Therefore, he will not rise. So I don`t see the point there.

 

Not sure what you mean here. You mean, if we had a league system, yoloers would be relegated into the lowest league? Yes ofc, i didnt deny that. What i said was, that those people would still play the same way, because their excuse to play badly doesnt change. Whats also true is, that there would be still people, who suffer from players like these. Only people like us wouldnt suffer from them anymore, which cant be the answer to this really. And WG certainly wouldnt do that either.

 

30 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

The amount of bad players at T8-10 is horrible as it is already, I don`t see it become any worse with such a system.

What could possible be worse than getting 5-10 game losing streaks and permanent roflstomps, win and lose?

 

Lets look at it this way:

If we had a league system, lets say 3 leagues. So 1/3 of the playerbase will be in each league. The best league would consist of players, who have 50% WR or more. Thats still an insane skill discrepency. The 2nd group would consist of players with 46-49% WR, and the 3rd group is 45% or below.

- How do you maintain 10 tiers if you split the playerbase in 3 leagues? We currently dont even have enough players for the lowest 5 tiers, so WG have to add bots during off-hours. Especially the top-league will suffer on all tiers below T7, because good players tend to play more hightiers.

- Skill discrepency is still too large in the top league. You will still get loss-streaks, and you will probably still get roflstomps, if one team has too many players around the 50% WR mark. Id also say, unicum stacked teams would be a more frequent thing, because smaller amounts of players to pick from.

- Especially in the top league, playing non-meta, weak or non-OP ships would become a (huge) disadvantage for one team. Would you play something like Seattle or Neptune in Typhoon/Hurricane CBs? I doubt that, but thats how it would be (roughly, but not that severe ofc).

- Not to mention, playing permanently on high CB levels only without communication doesnt actually sound like fun to me. Frustration levels would definitely rise, if you keep getting the weaker players in weaker ships over and over - same as now. Its still an inevitable loss, which you can see right from the start.

- Splitting the playerbase in even smaller groups wouldnt work either (reasons see above). If you would only want to play with the top players, you are basicly looking at 2-3% of the playerbase. Everyone below that has 57% WR or less. So you cant maintain an elite league anyway.

 

The only things that will change anything:

- Get bad players out of hightiers

- Ban Yoloers/Suiciders, temporarily, or atleast from playing hightiers.

- Make economy harder, so bad players cant maintain playing hightiers 24/7 like it should be. Ofc with premiums, permacamos and all the other stuff that ship has basicly sailed. The only thing which might still work is, to remove all rewards in a loss, so that people with 40% WR or less will feel it if they keep playing hightiers.

A combination of those would improve gameplay right away, without the need to fiddle with the MM, which would most likely not work anyway. And if there would be a way, im sure WG would not get it right, but make it worse - like they do with everything they rework.

[Camperdown]

22 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Not sure what you mean here. You mean, if we had a league system, yoloers would be relegated into the lowest league? Yes ofc, i didnt deny that. What i said was, that those people would still play the same way, because their excuse to play badly doesnt change. Whats also true is, that there would be still people, who suffer from players like these. Only people like us wouldnt suffer from them anymore, which cant be the answer to this really. And WG certainly wouldnt do that either.

 

 

Lets look at it this way:

If we had a league system, lets say 3 leagues. So 1/3 of the playerbase will be in each league. The best league would consist of players, who have 50% WR or more. Thats still an insane skill discrepency. The 2nd group would consist of players with 46-49% WR, and the 3rd group is 45% or below.

- How do you maintain 10 tiers if you split the playerbase in 3 leagues? We currently dont even have enough players for the lowest 5 tiers, so WG have to add bots during off-hours. Especially the top-league will suffer on all tiers below T7, because good players tend to play more hightiers.

- Skill discrepency is still too large in the top league. You will still get loss-streaks, and you will probably still get roflstomps, if one team has too many players around the 50% WR mark. Id also say, unicum stacked teams would be a more frequent thing, because smaller amounts of players to pick from.

- Especially in the top league, playing non-meta, weak or non-OP ships would become a (huge) disadvantage for one team. Would you play something like Seattle or Neptune in Typhoon/Hurricane CBs? I doubt that, but thats how it would be (roughly, but not that severe ofc).

- Not to mention, playing permanently on high CB levels only without communication doesnt actually sound like fun to me. Frustration levels would definitely rise, if you keep getting the weaker players in weaker ships over and over - same as now. Its still an inevitable loss, which you can see right from the start.

- Splitting the playerbase in even smaller groups wouldnt work either (reasons see above). If you would only want to play with the top players, you are basicly looking at 2-3% of the playerbase. Everyone below that has 57% WR or less. So you cant maintain an elite league anyway.

 

The only things that will change anything:

- Get bad players out of hightiers

- Ban Yoloers/Suiciders, temporarily, or atleast from playing hightiers.

- Make economy harder, so bad players cant maintain playing hightiers 24/7 like it should be. Ofc with premiums, permacamos and all the other stuff that ship has basicly sailed. The only thing which might still work is, to remove all rewards in a loss, so that people with 40% WR or less will feel it if they keep playing hightiers.

A combination of those would improve gameplay right away, without the need to fiddle with the MM, which would most likely not work anyway. And if there would be a way, im sure WG would not get it right, but make it worse - like they do with everything they rework.

If I could play all my games with +50% caliber players, I would be as happy as a young calf in a sunny spring meadow 

[Besserwisser3000]

Am 27.5.2021 um 01:34, DFens_666 sagte:

 

Not sure what you mean here. You mean, if we had a league system, yoloers would be relegated into the lowest league? Yes ofc, i didnt deny that. What i said was, that those people would still play the same way, because their excuse to play badly doesnt change. Whats also true is, that there would be still people, who suffer from players like these. Only people like us wouldnt suffer from them anymore, which cant be the answer to this really. And WG certainly wouldnt do that either.

 

 

To be honest, that`s not my problem.

I paid money enough money for  multiple AAA games for this game before and I think that I can reasonably expect to get a fair chance at having fun.

What happens to people who deal 20k damage at T10 is not of my concern anymore.

 

Am 27.5.2021 um 01:34, DFens_666 sagte:

The only things that will change anything:

- Get bad players out of hightiers

- Ban Yoloers/Suiciders, temporarily, or atleast from playing hightiers.

- Make economy harder, so bad players cant maintain playing hightiers 24/7 like it should be. Ofc with premiums, permacamos and all the other stuff that ship has basicly sailed. The only thing which might still work is, to remove all rewards in a loss, so that people with 40% WR or less will feel it if they keep playing hightiers.

A combination of those would improve gameplay right away, without the need to fiddle with the MM, which would most likely not work anyway. And if there would be a way, im sure WG would not get it right, but make it worse - like they do with everything they rework.

 

That could work, but WG will never do it.  Their whole business model is just like that of a gacha game. They are milking people by introducing overpowered units for ludicrous prices, breaking all promises made earlier (no premium above T8, no submarines, etc.). At the same time, they can`t punish bad play, because many of those customers who paid 200 EUR for one pixel ship are not exactly good players.

That`s why you can join a game in your T8 ship and have an unpreventable loss due to teammates that get 200 xp in a Petropavlovsk.

Or what I witnessed just now: A FdG missing 5 salvoes on a broadsiding Alsace 10km away. Every single salvoe landed short. He could not figure out in 5 salvoes that he should aim higher. Then he loaded HE and - guess what - it landed short again.

 

A good MM should not make you feel powerless to these kinds of external factors so often.

 

 

[Pukovnik7]

Thing is, after looking at it for the last few matches I played, I think the main reason for ROFLstomps is not matchmaking but rather map design. Many maps are designed in a way which punishes even the slightest mistakes, with the losing team having no place to run, regroup and recover, or to try and split up the enemy team and balance things. Incidentally, this map design also promotes the boring, camping-in-the-back playstyle - and people who are bored make mistakes. Well, I know that it happens to me.

 

So rather than trying to change and balance matchmaking (which is impossible, and will grow even more impossible as WarGaming destroys the game and people leave), it is map design that should be changed.