Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[CaTTiViKIT]

Alle 14/4/2021 alle 12:20, GarrusBrutus ha scritto:

Correct. That is why you increasing numbers of players with less than 20k average damage on Tier 10. Quite baffling if you ask me. But its a direct consequence of the direction WG is taking with the game: Push players to high tiers as soon as possible by making them spend as much as possible.

Congratulations to the WG for this crap, let's see how many will get fed up and stop this game

[Besserwisser3000]

There simply is no excuse for such "MM".

All 3 DDs on my team dead within 3 minutes. One kill on my whole team and 100% of my damage were to DDs, because I had to hunt them in a [edited]BB.

If only WG could employ some people who actually can do their jobs properly.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pukovnik7]

I have had bad experiences as well, and note that I have actually restarted playing from Tier I now. 

 

Most of the time, matches are landslides: either our team crushes the opponents, or the reverse happens. But either way, outcome feels predetermined and that is really annoying. I obviously like winning, and don't mind defeats even, but only so long as there is a sense of having to put in work for the result. So when there is this feeling that nothing you do matters because one team is a complete potato... it does not feel right.

[HystericalAccuracy]

On 4/9/2021 at 4:36 AM, xe_N_on said:

Aside from games, image a hobby musician, e.g. a violinist or a pianist.

(...)

While all other musicians in the orchestra train hard to play a piece together, this particular musician does not and simply disrupt the play of his fellow musician. One musician has fun. All other have not. How long do you think other musicians would tolerate such a person?

(...)

In a competitive pvp team game you should bring your self in to win. If you can't, you should have enough empathy for other player to stay at solo or at least PvE. This don't mean, you need to be a unicum ... but you should give your best.

For me this is one of the best posts in this thread so far.

 

Why is it not possible to at least remove trolls and obvious saboteurs? Few ranked seasons ago I had a team-mate which sailed into a corner and sat there. When I asked "whaddayado?" the answer was "I make screenshots" (brand-new T8-Premium). First I try it politely "mate, you can´t do this in ranked, you spoil it for your team". Answer "oh you mad you lose dumb kid? go cry to your mommy I effed her hard". Blacklist, in-game-report and proper report with screenshots to CS. Days later I run into the same guy again  

 

And yes, I do support bans.

[bloodynicknames]

The MM currently is so f'ed up there really are no words for it. 

just had 1 46% team go up against 55%(GJ WG!!!), I could do [edited]all cause  DDs just yoloed and we had no spotting, literally, 40k damage and not much else and still ended up #1 on my team by a long shot.

horrible players and the fact the MM doesnt account for WR or anything like that all is the worst part of this game by a wide margin. I can deal with crap ship designs and WGs questionable and greedy monetization but this is just too much

[SnuSnu_RIP]

That's what I'm saying since a long time, you need a division to play hightier games - not to dominate the enemy, no - to compensate the saboteurs and enemies in your own team. And even then it's hard to carry those teams. I wish that something will happen with the MM, so the invested time in Wows doesn't feel like a waste of time often. 

[HystericalAccuracy]

Not even first-graders would tolerate if their soccer-team had a "player" which just wants to lay on the grass and enjoy the sun.

The rest of the children gives their best, runs around and tries to play the game but that one makes a picnic and refuses to learn the game.

WG stands beside and plays the moral-teacher which punishes anyone who wants the kid to be removed from the team because they are too scared to lose that one membership-fee.

 

What happens to the ambition and the focus of the rest of the team? At some point they say eff it, with that potato we lose anyway. An attitude which I already noticed among some players and myself too. But this is incomprehensible to someone who does not take his eyes off his spreadsheet.

 

-

 

A bit off-topic but in the last days I rather watched the dumpster burn instead of sitting in it. Means: I listened to wows on twitch while doing other stuff, instead of playing myself. And what every single streamer was constantly repeating was "look at my team - what are they doing - why are they all flocking like sheep/Lemmings to that empty corner" etc. And I feel with them. All caps are red and five out of seven green ships sit behind the same island and call each other noob.

 

ofc WG will not change MM, but rather call the streamers and tell them not be so toxic, otherwise they´ll be Flamu-ed. You better not speak against the party, comrade.

 

And we will continue to get team-mates like this one while playing cOmPetiTivE ranked:

[Birkebein]

Periodically I make a mistake.... and post in this thread

 

We've been told that MM won't balance team WRs.  There are many players vehemently opposed to balancing WRs plus WG (which is all that matters).  

 

We've been told that the number in ships in divisions in each team is being balanced.  Seems like the MM couod make more of an effort to balance 3 player divs...

 

WG hasn't said they're opposed to balancing the number of premium ships, total captain skills, combat flags and camos, and percentage of mounted modules/upgrades on a per team basis - it would be nice if the teams were balanced in this way, then, at least, each team would bring similar combat assets to the fight and, sometimes "toxic", claims that something is unfair would be less valid.

 

Anyhow, I admit, posting here is a mistake... This is where the players with the most assets hang out so they'll claim that any balancing by the MM won't work as they're so smart they'll circumvent/game it plus they'll make the spurious claim that everyone will have to wait far too long for a match if the MM balances the teams more robustly, and, of course, WG won't respond and takes no notice (which is all that matters).

[Camperdown]

9 hours ago, VIadoCro said:

Not even first-graders would tolerate if their soccer-team had a "player" which just wants to lay on the grass and enjoy the sun.

The rest of the children gives their best, runs around and tries to play the game but that one makes a picnic and refuses to learn the game.

WG stands beside and plays the moral-teacher which punishes anyone who wants the kid to be removed from the team because they are too scared to lose that one membership-fee.

 

What happens to the ambition and the focus of the rest of the team? At some point they say eff it, with that potato we lose anyway. An attitude which I already noticed among some players and myself too. But this is incomprehensible to someone who does not take his eyes off his spreadsheet.

 

-

 

A bit off-topic but in the last days I rather watched the dumpster burn instead of sitting in it. Means: I listened to wows on twitch while doing other stuff, instead of playing myself. And what every single streamer was constantly repeating was "look at my team - what are they doing - why are they all flocking like sheep/Lemmings to that empty corner" etc. And I feel with them. All caps are red and five out of seven green ships sit behind the same island and call each other noob.

 

ofc WG will not change MM, but rather call the streamers and tell them not be so toxic, otherwise they´ll be Flamu-ed. You better not speak against the party, comrade.

 

And we will continue to get team-mates like this one while playing cOmPetiTivE ranked:

WG is poisoning the game and they don't give a f*ck. 

 

Too bad, we have to accept that.

[garfield06061991]

Good afternoon, to those players who find it difficult to play dd they can take out the vampir 2 to improve their game and more now, the matchmaking is rigged so that you have to play against tier 8 and 9 ships. It is proven that in tier pairings 8 and 9 the only tier 10 ship will always be the vampir 2. You already know if you want to make big games that is your ship. All the best

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[arttuperkunas]

On 4/23/2021 at 11:09 AM, Birkebein said:

stuff

Rubbish. I dare you to find more than a couple of people on this forum who are happy with the MM. By and large ppl want skill based mm, most have just accepted it is not going to happen. Don’t confuse indifference for endorsement.

[159Hunter]

2 hours ago, arttuperkunas said:

Rubbish. I dare you to find more than a couple of people on this forum who are happy with the MM. By and large ppl want skill based mm, most have just accepted it is not going to happen. Don’t confuse indifference for endorsement.

I don't want sbmm. I want people to learn how to play the game.

[Pukovnik7]

3 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

I don't want sbmm. I want people to learn how to play the game.

They won't do that by being frustrated. In my last game, I played a bloody Japanese destroyer (which is not exactly a type of a ship I like - I prefer being able to shoot my way past enemy destroyers), delayed an entire enemy flank, killed three enemy ships including at least one destroyer, yet we still lost. Oh, and the reason I died? I got torpedoed by a teammate while dodging enemy shellfire. Not that it is surprising, considering we had three purple players to none enemy ones.

 

So yeah. Matchmaking is garbage - unless you can literally carry the entire team, outcome feels largely predetermined. I actually prefer playing Operations to Random, because at least there, outcome does not feel predetermined.

[159Hunter]

Just now, Pukovnik7 said:

They won't do that by being frustrated. In my last game, I played a bloody Japanese destroyer (which is not exactly a type of a ship I like - I prefer being able to shoot my way past enemy destroyers), delayed an entire enemy flank, killed three enemy ships including at least one destroyer, yet we still lost. Oh, and the reason I died? I got torpedoed by a teammate while dodging enemy shellfire. Not that it is surprising, considering we had three purple players to none enemy ones.

 

So yeah. Matchmaking is garbage - unless you can literally carry the entire team, outcome feels largely predetermined.

Do you think those glue eaters were frustrated by another loss? Nope. They don't care:

Teamgame? F*** that. I play for my fun.

Or

Ohh pretty ocean and guns go boooom boooom. Niceeeee

 

[DFens_666]

12 minutes ago, Pukovnik7 said:

They won't do that by being frustrated.

 

Its more like WG promoting selfish play and removing teamplay as they go.

Just a couple of examples

- Playing to save the star in ranked - sucks for the team, but good for you. you save the star in a loss, and if your team carries you, you get a star. Thats win-win for playing for yourself

- Sitting in the back with your BB - you get to live the longest, noone can shoot you, DDs cant torp you, CVs wont attack you. But your team is worse because you sit behind an island in spawn? Well tough luck, the BB had fun atleast... also getting usually decent XP ontop, because being alive for the most part.

- DD flanking at the mapborder towards the CV (or wherever) - well ignoring the Cap and not spotting for the team, but [edited]the team. I play to have fun, and i want to kill that DAMN CV.

- I need to do x/y/z mission, so ill do that mission even if i have to play like a retard - again sucks for the team, but i get my mission done.

 

Those are just the worst examples imo, but you can see those all the time. They dont give a crap about teamplay. They play for their own enjoyment, for missions or rewards. And basicly even WG wants that aswell. Its not a game for them anymore, its just a money making scheme. The more money you spend, the happier they are. So they make you "work" for the stuff, and if you fail to get it, then you shall take your creditcard and buy the rest.

 

[Pukovnik7]

2 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Do you think those glue eaters were frustrated by another loss? Nope. They don't care:

Teamgame? F*** that. I play for my fun.

Or

Ohh pretty ocean and guns go boooom boooom. Niceeeee

 

To be fair, I also play for fun, but yeah, I really don't understand why fun and tactics have to be mutually exclusive.

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Its more like WG promoting selfish play and removing teamplay as they go.

Just a couple of examples

- Playing to save the star in ranked - sucks for the team, but good for you. you save the star in a loss, and if your team carries you, you get a star. Thats win-win for playing for yourself

- Sitting in the back with your BB - you get to live the longest, noone can shoot you, DDs cant torp you, CVs wont attack you. But your team is worse because you sit behind an island in spawn? Well tough luck, the BB had fun atleast... also getting usually decent XP ontop, because being alive for the most part.

- DD flanking at the mapborder towards the CV (or wherever) - well ignoring the Cap and not spotting for the team, but [edited]the team. I play to have fun, and i want to kill that DAMN CV.

- I need to do x/y/z mission, so ill do that mission even if i have to play like a retard - again sucks for the team, but i get my mission done.

 

Those are just the worst examples imo, but you can see those all the time. They dont give a crap about teamplay. They play for their own enjoyment, for missions or rewards. And basicly even WG wants that aswell. Its not a game for them anymore, its just a money making scheme. The more money you spend, the happier they are. So they make you "work" for the stuff, and if you fail to get it, then you shall take your creditcard and buy the rest.

 

Agreed. Personally I don't give a crap about missions, and the only statistics I came to truly care about are WR and PR, but from what I have noticed of the missions and other such garbage... the game feels more like a singleplayer with a multiplayer options, than a proper multiplayer. And it took me quite some time to start more-or-less ignoring things such as damage and kills.

 

Although, I can understand a DD going after a CV. Yes, it is a damn stupid choice unless a CV misplays by getting close to / into a cap, or otherwise just sitting in your path (and yes, it does happen), but still... CVs are damn frustrating. I have to play several BB / CL games after playing a few DD games with a carrier in them, simply to calm down from being constantly hounded by CV(s). Because if I don't, I might loose my cool and do precisely that. For a DD player, worst thing about a CV isn't their damage potential, it is sheer psychological pressure. Not even of being attacked by a CV, but simply of being (perma)spotted to death.

[Timber_MG]

On 4/23/2021 at 9:12 AM, SnuSnu_RIP said:

That's what I'm saying since a long time, you need a division to play hightier games - not to dominate the enemy, no - to compensate the saboteurs and enemies in your own team. And even then it's hard to carry those teams. I wish that something will happen with the MM, so the invested time in Wows doesn't feel like a waste of time often. 

The sunken cost fallacy and the occasional engaging game experience is what keeps some people trying. I'm really tired though, the ratio of good in game experiences vs poor is just diminishing.

 

The metric I look at (median PR of player in a random game compared to average) has steadily been in decline. Unfortunately this matches the in-game experience with ever more people playing WASD+ mouse click boom boom.

 

WG focuses on whales looking for high buck dopamine fixes. Those playing the game for other reasons are irrelevant and the game development is simply eroding the basis leaving behind a sea of mediocrity. Good enough for division rolls with friends but no longer fun nor engaging enough to be more than a bit of nostalgia solo.

[bloodynicknames]

such fun 

[arttuperkunas]

Are there any numbers on what is the median winrate? It sure as crap isn’t 49%... 

[ColonelPete]

3 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Are there any numbers on what is the median winrate? It sure as crap isn’t 49%... 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/dense_winrate_20210220_e.png

[ForlornSailor]

2 hours ago, Timber_MG said:

The metric I look at (median PR of player in a random game compared to average) has steadily been in decline. Unfortunately this matches the in-game experience with ever more people playing WASD+ mouse click boom boom.

Are we surprised? The guys with higher PR are frustrated by the state of the game and keep away from Randoms more and more. They are beeing replaced by people with 100 games, that bought a high tier premium after the 4th game in T2.

 

56 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

Are there any numbers on what is the median winrate? It sure as crap isn’t 49%... 

The overall median is like that. If we would take a snapshot of players playing in the past 24 hours, it sure as hell isnt even close to 48/49%.

[arttuperkunas]

2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Are we surprised? The guys with higher PR are frustrated by the state of the game and keep away from Randoms more and more. They are beeing replaced by people with 100 games, that bought a high tier premium after the 4th game in T2.

 

The overall median is like that. If we would take a snapshot of players playing in the past 24 hours, it sure as hell isnt even close to 48/49%.

I find it surprising that it's close to 48/49, it feels like you get a lot of players who are in the 43-46% bracket each match, and some unicums. I guess that's the limitation of subjective experience (as I am likely to look at profiles for win rate when I am particularly disappointed in the quality of a match).

 

That said, I also expect the numbers are actually quite differentiated, for example most players who are out of protected matchmaking are (I would expect) going to land below 50% winrate in their first 1000 matches, where I would expect that number to go down as a player accrues matches (on average - I know where are incorrigible potatoes out there). It would be interesting to see average and median winrates differentiates by games played (200-1000, 1000-3000, 3000-10000+). That would show how much experience affects the quality of a player, on average.

[DFens_666]

31 minutes ago, arttuperkunas said:

It would be interesting to see average and median winrates differentiates by games played (200-1000, 1000-3000, 3000-10000+). That would show how much experience affects the quality of a player, on average.

 

If you scroll down on the pic Colonelpete posted, you can see the WR for players with >1, >10, >100 and so forth battles played. Indeed, the more battles, the higher the WR is. With players above 20k battles its above 51%.

[Timber_MG]

Just to clarify, the median PR of team players in a selection of 12 served up by MM compared the the game average is indicative of the lowering in skill of that which one encounters. Hard data doesn't lie and its by no means low play count players. Plenty of peeps with 5k, 10k or more battles with  stats indicative that they're in this game for reasons other than normally developed people. Plays so hair-raising that one wonders how these people function and what they get out of participating are the norm, not the exception.

 

As an average player I look forward to balans in the sense of meeting up on a battlefield with people who at least try play an objective or apply some stratagem other than spam the battle button and die.

[Birkebein]

4 minutes ago, Timber_MG said:

As an average player I look forward to balans in the sense of meeting up on a battlefield with people who at least try play an objective or apply some stratagem other than spam the battle button and die.

Despite not being as much of an "average player" as some people... I agree with you, "balans" would be great, but would like to suggest that sometimes people end up playing without camo, without modules, without combat flags, and without a skilled captain in absurd non-meta ships for "reasons", and it'd be great if the MM did its best to match those players who appear to simply, "spam the battle button" without the aforementioned "assets".  Let's not worry about the "reasons" and just balance the combat assets; reality is that WR/"skill" balanced teams won't happen, so let's focus on lobbying to achieve a more balanced playing field, "balans", by other means.

 

Oh, by the way, let's try to agree not to focus on the "reasons"... it won't be productive - unless page after page of posts saying, "the solution is players need to git gud" seems productive