Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[aler1x]

Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

Well +/-2 also depends very much on the ship in question. Ofc T7 vs T9 is worse than T7 vs T8, but overall id say, T7 vs T8 has more issues than 5 vs 7 or 8 vs 10. I think the counterplay options are easier for those tiers.

DDs, as i mentioned before, usually have better concealment, made a quick list (didnt take russian/EU DDs)

 

 

Only the Shira can beat 3 T5 DDs in concealment, and only the Jaguar has worse concealment than 2 T7 DDs (+ on par with Jervis). All others often have an acceptable window to spot the T7 DD without too much risk involved. And lets not forget, Shira is one of the most squishy DDs around with only 12800 HP or 15250 with SE. Which is much less (from now on all with SE) than the Jaguars 18350, and only slightly more than Nicholas' 14850 while having less DPM. Jianwei loses the race with only 14250 HP and really low DPM.

T7 vs 8?

Even the worst (Le Fantasque) only loses against 3 T7s, while Jervis is so close that you basicly can not avoid being spotted or losing the spot right away. Meanwhile, 4 of them have basicly better concealment than all of the T7s. Even Akizuki can outspot all T7s except Shira, and Z-23 can ouspot all but Shira and Gadjah.

Allright, specifically for DDs you're probably right and concealment-wise T7 to T8 is actually a much bigger jump than T5 to T7 or T6 to T8. But I'd argue that this is a specific problem of DDs and then specifically a problem of concealment (which is, admittedly, quite important for a DD), and the same is probably true for T7-T8 CLs and their pen in context of 32mm plating. But for other classes and other transitions my argument that a two-tier jump is in almost every single case worse than any one-tier transition in my opinion still holds true:

 

Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

Cruisers ofc struggle often anyway, as we basicly agreed on. Its often just a question of being shat on, or being shat on harder. Either way it requires cautious play, and only very few exceptions give them room for being aggressive (Balti vs 380mm caliber BBs f.e.)

Which is a very important distinction in my opinion, as it means the difference between having to play cautiously against BBs (as cruisers should always have to do, regardless of their or the BB's tier) and getting randomly nuked across the map.

 

Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

BBs it really depends... some are kinda tanky even when uptiered (Germans/Russians)

It's probably my fault as I tend to be quite an aggressive player, but Bismarck against T10 ships or Sinop against T9 ships, no matter the class, really isn't fun. Don't have Vladi yet, so I can't comment on that.

 

Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

Others struggle even against sametier (KGV/DoY, and also Colo/Nagato to some degree). And those 4 can be really screwed seeing T8 BBs due to mentioned overmatch.

My problem with those when low-tier though isn't so much overmatch (Although you have to most certainly keep that in mind of course) and more the sheer difference in alpha, DPM, health pool and other individual ship stats between those T7s especially T9s, again regardless the class.

 

Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

While -2 tier BBs ofc often lack in HP/tanking power, their armor on T5 is still good. Most of them actually have a midsection which cant get overmatched by T7s (except US, and Kongo does have a fairly large area bow/stern), most others only have small areas bow/stern to be overmatched or even non at all... looking at you Pyotr, aka russian iron ball.

But they lack so much HP and tanking power that regardless of overmatch they can't fight T7 BBs and in some cases even get outgunned by well-played T7 cruisers, which is exactly my point: Yes, I don't die immediately in a T5 BB facing T7s, but I'm not fighting a fair fight either. And while I'm never fighting an exactly fair fight, especially also not in +-1, in that case the differences, in my opinion, would be small enough to not feel oppressive.

 

I'm curious because I'm not sure whether you stated this somewhere above: Are you saying that +-2 MM is not a problem and therefore there is no need to change to +-1, or are you actively against +-1?

[DFens_666]

8 minutes ago, aler1x said:

I'm curious because I'm not sure whether you stated this somewhere above: Are you saying that +-2 MM is not a problem and therefore there is no need to change to +-1, or are you actively against +-1?

 

Overall, im not entirely against +/-1MM.. the only issue i have with it is, that i can think of is this:

- T9-10 will mostly play amongst each other, for the simple reason that T10 is the highest tier, and i believe, its also the most played tier these days. So they will suck up the T9s most of the time. Not a big deal imo, T9 can handle T10.

- That inevitable results in T7-8 facing each other --> thats why i mostly use that as an example argueing against +/-1 MM. The last MM change already made it much harsher for T7 MM, and i think it would get even worse with this.

- T5-6 see each other most of the time, which is not really a big issue ofc, T5 was always in that spot and for T6 it would get much easier, even if they would see T7 sometimes.

 

+/-2 MM is not that bad, depending on the tiers in question. I think, 5vs7 and 8vs10 are ok, 6vs8 and 7vs9 are not. For +/-1 MM, T7 would need a rework, and the big stepping stone from 7 to 8 needs to be lowered. Like the 5th slot modules could be accessable for T7 ships aswell. Then buff BB plating and give Cruisers the ability to pen 32mm with IFHE HE. That would probably be a good change overall, making all tiers comfortable to play... but WG doesnt want that anyway, they want people to be miserable everywhere except T9-10.

[MIAteam]

Vor 1 Minute, aler1x sagte:

It's probably my fault as I tend to be quite an aggressive player, but Bismarck against T10 ships or Sinop against T9 ships, no matter the class, really isn't fun. Don't have Vladi yet, so I can't comment on that.

 

some T8 BBs scale really bad when uptiered, Bismarck is one example, Massa another one imo. On the other hand, both are monsters in T6 games. Iz balanz comrade.

 

Vor 4 Minuten, aler1x sagte:

Allright, specifically for DDs you're probably right and concealment-wise T7 to T8 is actually a much bigger jump than T5 to T7 or T6 to T8. But I'd argue that this is a specific problem of DDs and then specifically a problem of concealment (which is, admittedly, quite important for a DD), and the same is probably true for T7-T8 CLs and their pen in context of 32mm plating.

 

It must be some kind of WG policy to make people leave T7 ASAP and move to the higher tiers. There is hardly any other explanation for the drawbacks T7 ships suffer compared to T8s.

DDs have the lack in concealment, cruisers got shafted with the IFHE rework and lost their pen and BBs have the overmatchable plating while they cant overmatch the T8 BBs. Conclusion: by design, thus will never change.

 

Vor 7 Minuten, aler1x sagte:

But they lack so much HP and tanking power that regardless of overmatch they can't fight T7 BBs and in some cases even get outgunned by well-played T7 cruisers, which is exactly my point: Yes, I don't die immediately in a T5 BB facing T7s, but I'm not fighting a fair fight either. And while I'm never fighting an exactly fair fight, especially also not in +-1, in that case the differences, in my opinion, would be small enough to not feel oppressive.

 

At this point of the game, it might be interesting to not talk about who is in favour or against +-2/1, but how that would effect matchmaking overall. It would isolate T10 into an T9/T10 environment. T8 cant see T10 anymore but also no T6 either. This actually sounds really good. I mean it would make some tiers interesting again. T6 comes to mind but also T7.

 

 

[ColonelPete]

15 hours ago, aler1x said:

What business has a T5 ship, almost any T5 ship, in fighting a T7 ship?

Good business.

 

When the following Tier V end up in a Tier VII match, then

• all cruisers are prey for the Tier V BB
• all DD are valid targets for Tier V BB
• Tier V and VI BB are valid targets for Tier V BB
• the Tier V BB should stay away from Tier VII BB, which is easy when one has experience with playing cruisers (see next)
• all cruisers are valid targets for Tier V cruisers, HE will work fine and AP depends on the targets armor and position at the attackers guns and not on the Tier
• all DD are the prime target for Tier V cruisers
• all BB a threat to the Tier V cruisers, nothing changes
• all cruiser are a threat to the Tier V DD, which is not exactly new, yes, the few TIer VII cruisers with radar are an extra threat, but the earlier you learn how to handle radar, the better
• all BB are prey to the Tier V DD
• all DD torpboats are prey to the Tier V gunboats
• all DD gunboats are a threat to Tier V torpboats

[aler1x]

Vor 4 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

Overall, im not entirely against +/-1MM.. the only issue i have with it is, that i can think of is this:

- T9-10 will mostly play amongst each other, for the simple reason that T10 is the highest tier, and i believe, its also the most played tier these days. So they will suck up the T9s most of the time. Not a big deal imo, T9 can handle T10.

Honestly, I'd even consider giving MM a bias towards creating T10 only battles, firstly to avoid that kind of problem, secondly because T10 is, as you said, the most played and the "veteran tier", and thirdly because the step from T9 to T10 is fairly major overall, almost as big of a one-tier step as T7-T8. The exact numbers of such a system probably would need some fine-tuning and some actualisation based on battles played, but this seems to be fairly little work and the system could maybe even be automatically tied to the relative number of battles played.

 

Some measure of this kind already has to be in place: I don't know the exact up-to-date numbers, but until fairly recently T9 had exactly the problem you're describing because of a high number of T8 players, an even higher numberof T10 players and a much lower number of T9 players, creating a situation where T9 almost exclusively played against T10 while the other tiers where mostly evenly spread out. But unless as of late the number of T9 players has massively increased, something stopped this effect, because lately there are quite a number of T9 battles without T10 interference.

 

Besides, without any measures, such an effect would be to expect exactly the same way with +-2 MM, especially since the number of battles played per tier goes up with tier (except for T9, of course).

 

Vor 17 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

For +/-1 MM, T7 would need a rework, and the big stepping stone from 7 to 8 needs to be lowered. Like the 5th slot modules could be accessable for T7 ships aswell. Then buff BB plating and give Cruisers the ability to pen 32mm with IFHE HE.

I'd say rather nerf T8 tier bonuses slightly (say, T8 BBs only get 30mm plating or something) than buff T7 that much, since otherwise you're just creating the same kind of friction between T6 and T7. But I guess a BB plating buff for T7, at least up to 27mm, would be warranted anyway, 26mm is ridiculous and a value selected just to troll T7 BBs.

 

Vor 22 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

That would probably be a good change overall, making all tiers comfortable to play... but WG doesnt want that anyway, they want people to be miserable everywhere except T9-10.

Probably.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Are the current matchmaking rules known in full and where can I look them up?

[ColonelPete]

as linked a couple of times in this thread:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Matchmaking

[Greuter29]

10 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

as linked a couple of times in this thread:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Matchmaking

Or watch the video:

 

[zekai7498]

27.11.2020 saat 04:41'de, Greuter29 dedi:

Or watch the video:

 

''The MM only considers ship tiers'' means i may put you in a potato bag and make you suffer;

Dont tell me its only 3 game,they were disaster:(

[ColonelPete]

14 minutes ago, zekai7498 said:

''The MM only considers ship tiers'' means i may put you in a potato bag and make you suffer;

Only when you think a potato bag is worth to be Tier VIII or any Tier at all...

[zekai7498]

25 dakika önce, ColonelPete dedi:

Only when you think a potato bag is worth to be Tier VIII or any Tier at all...

Its only a matter of $.Example;

T10 Arp potato.

[ColonelPete]

9 minutes ago, zekai7498 said:

Its only a matter of $.Example;

T10 Arp potato.

That is Tier X. I do not see the problem.

[KayaYautja]

Another Matchmaking quirk which is super fun and exciting. One team gets two or three radars, other team gets none. Makes complete sense.

[Nov_A]

MM Status: bork

 

Spoiler

 

[DFens_666]

54 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

MM Status: bork

 

Stop doing faildivs?

[GarrusBrutus]

1 hour ago, Nov_A said:

MM Status: bork

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Nice division anchoring.  let the tier 7 pick a tier 6 ship and you'll have a game within 2 minutes. 

[Nov_A]

9 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Nice division anchoring.  let the tier 7 pick a tier 6 ship and you'll have a game within 2 minutes. 

But 10 minutes for this?

 

I later switched to a Massa and we got stuff like a 9v9 in T10 with the New Orleans. In another game I went with Shokek and it was a T10, New Orleans  got machted against a Kagero, no other DDs.

[DFens_666]

17 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

But 10 minutes for this?

 

I later switched to a Massa and we got stuff like a 9v9 in T10 with the New Orleans. In another game I went with Shokek and it was a T10, New Orleans  got machted against a Kagero, no other DDs. 

 

Could be, because MM wants you to be lowtier -2 (or someone else from your div)?

[GarrusBrutus]

3 hours ago, Nov_A said:

But 10 minutes for this?

 

I later switched to a Massa and we got stuff like a 9v9 in T10 with the New Orleans. In another game I went with Shokek and it was a T10, New Orleans  got machted against a Kagero, no other DDs.

How difficult is it to pick ships of the same tier?

You know how hard it is for the Matchmaker to make even matches, why make it more difficult by picking different tiers in the same division?

 

[Nov_A]

1 minute ago, GarrusBrutus said:

How difficult is it to pick ships of the same tier?

You know how hard it is for the Matchmaker to make even matches, why make it more difficult by picking different tiers in the same division?

 

The other guy was re-grinding his New Orleans and I dont play T7.

[GarrusBrutus]

2 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

The other guy was re-grinding his New Orleans and I dont play T7.

Fair enough, but how is that the fault of the matchmaker?

[Nov_A]

13 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Fair enough, but how is that the fault of the matchmaker?

Well, he could give us a game and not forcefully prolong the time as our division can only be uptiered into T9, when we face an equally dumb division, due to CV exception and T6 MM roster. So he was clearly trying to put us in a T9 game instead of a T5-T8, which is very rude.

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

Well, he could give us a game and not forcefully prolong the time as our division can only be uptiered into T9, when we face an equally dumb division, due to CV exception and T6 MM roster. So he was clearly trying to put us in a T9 game instead of a T5-T8, which is very rude.

 

Thats why i assume, your T7 buddy wasnt allowed to be midtier ship any longer (or toptier for that matter). Since they changed MM, you get a certain amount of top-/mid-/lowtier, and with a T6-7 Div, the T7 ship would either be toptier (5-7) or midtier (6-8).

[GarrusBrutus]

2 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

Well, he could give us a game and not forcefully prolong the time as our division can only be uptiered into T9, when we face an equally dumb division, due to CV exception and T6 MM roster. So he was clearly trying to put us in a T9 game instead of a T5-T8, which is very rude.

Maybe it could but wouldnt it be unfair for your teammates who get put up with your T6 divisionmates in their T9 game? You'd negatively influence their chances of winning by bringing such a division.

That wouldnt be fun for you, your teammates and the enemy team.

But be glad there is a simple trick to circumvent this nasty side effect of uneven matchmaking:

pick.

same.

tier.

ships.

[arquata2019_]

1 minuto fa, GarrusBrutus ha scritto:

Maybe it could but wouldnt it be unfair for your teammates who get put up with your T6 divisionmates in their T9 game? You'd negatively influence their chances of winning by bringing such a division.

That wouldnt be fun for you, your teammates and the enemy team.

But be glad there is a simple trick to circumvent this nasty side effect of uneven matchmaking:

pick.

same.

tier.

ships.

+3 tier or +2 tier mm speak for himself