Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[ForlornSailor]

6 minutes ago, surfer_gr said:

guys i give up really every battle the same i cant win on my own watch those replays and tell me what you see really cause  iam puzzled with this i start thinking iam playing this game wrong lols

 

Yea I stopped watching after 5 mins. You are litteraly the last BB in your team, litterly going in the map border for no reason. You let your team die, posing no threat to the enemy cruisers in the cap. Enemy team contests cap, kills your DD, outnumbers the pushing Yamato and kills that off too. Yes, literally your fault that you lost the game, with your passive play, that isnt passive but actually cowardly. I mean you asked for feedback but I hope you can take it. I used to play my BBs like that, when I had like ~50 to 100 games in the class. I has like 42% WR and started to think "dude, you are doing something wrong". So I went to search some videos and twitch of people that have >60% WR in BBs and over night, just by copying their positioning, I went to a 55% WR BB player. Rest came with time. Im sorry, it might sound harsh but thats the truth of what im seeing. Never too late to learn I guess, try it out and you will see.

[DFens_666]

10 minutes ago, surfer_gr said:

20201117_233816_PFSB510-Bourgogne_51_Greece.wowsreplay

 

seriously?

Do i really have to point it out? I guess so, since you want to hear it:

 

1. Total misusage of the reloadbooster, using it for BBs at >20km is absolutely useless

2. For almost 1:30 you didnt move from spawn - thats not how you can have early game impact. Either you go with speedboost on the flank, or you go ahead and support your DD. Doing neither and then try to go for the flank without speedboost yields nothing.

 

3. kiting into the mapborder for no apparent reason. You have guns, which can not overmatch anything, and you go for a place, where you will shoot enemies BOW-ON! You are lucky the Salem gifted you the kill by being dumb. A bow-on battle shooting HE you would have actually lost.

4. You try to shoot 20km, but you dont take enough lead so... not useful.

 

[surfer_gr]

sure i can take it what i did i show all the team lemming to one side of the map went to support them the shima that was asked to go to A everyone went to the area we already had you did not watch very clossely i think asnd went on my consealment range not the edge of the map the dd had crossed over went for salem mino and puertorico that was the threat of the dd

[surfer_gr]

i spawned next to c when i saw that everyone turned towards c i went towards a to support used the speedboost to get in position you did not watch clossely ans see the positioning of the rest of the team i did 180k damage with ap maybe i should do 300 who knows lols

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, surfer_gr said:

i spawned next to c when i saw that everyone turned towards c i went towards a to support used the speedboost to get in position you did not watch clossely ans see the positioning of the rest of the team i did 180k damage with ap maybe i should do 300 who knows lols

 

Nah I did watch closly. Here is the thing: farming damage in lost games is often easier then getting decent damage in a won game. If you´d push straight into B, on the greece game, supporting your Shima, you could have taken down the Halland with the reload boost. Easilly, Bourgogne is a monster against a spotted DD. The islands would have protected you from ARP Yamato, there were no crossshots from C/D side, since enemys are outnumbered and run.

 

Here is the position you could have been at: all the cruisers broadsiding. There was no threat from the D side, as I mentioned, and you saw that already way earlier, then ships started beeing spotted.

 

 

 

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, surfer_gr said:

i spawned next to c when i saw that everyone turned towards c i went towards a to support used the speedboost to get in position you did not watch clossely ans see the positioning of the rest of the team i did 180k damage with ap maybe i should do 300 who knows lols

 

No, the replay didnt show speedboost being used. I have a screen, still shows 4 speedboosts after 7 minutes played

Spoiler

 

At best, it would be a replay bug, but the replay didnt show you going over 30kts, so even if you did use it, you didnt use it properly.

 

Damage is mostly irrelevant. You only have 34k after 6:30. And then takes several more minutes till Salem and PR are dead, trading yourself in the process. Staying central at B would have opened up a crossfire way earlier, possibly deleting the Salem/Mino broadside too.

Overall, the position is way too passive imo. Either close to B where your Yamato was, possibly in kiting position, or just go with the flow. Most random people dont want to go first, because they are too afraid and die. If you lead them, they often will follow.

[surfer_gr]

see the time stamps look at the positioning of the team we had lost only 2 ships and all of them was in c trying to push d but failed would have made no difference i killed salem puerto rico and almost deleted mino he was lucky lols plu about 40k on the rep that killed hindy at the start

[surfer_gr]

btw i went on the boarder cause i was dodjing shell fire on the way while i was shooting back i was the only target the crusers had in range anyway went dark and turned in to wait for salem .puerto and mino and went near those islands to be in a position to doge the halland torps and not allow mino to use its torps one by one and not give broadside to mino since i was perma spotted

[surfer_gr]

my plan was to kill mino as well but he was lucky LOL  then use a couple of repairs and flank the remaining bbs at A well mino was lucky to escape LOLs  but as you saw on the minimap i was alone with 7 ships in the visinity and in a range of max 17kms to 20 tops from the montana and the  yama after rep died

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, surfer_gr said:

20201117_231550_PFSB510-Bourgogne_52_Britain.wowsreplay

 

I think with a little bit smarter play, you might have been able to help enough so it would be a win.

The key point for me was, turning in too early here:

You turn in, while you just popped a heal and DCP is also still on CD. Also randomly blindifiring into the smoke even tho you were undetected does not help at all. Especially after DCPing one fire.. Its too many small mistakes snowballing out of control.

And you definetely dont use enough HE with your Bourgogne. Angled BBs, start using HE. Even if its not that great against Kremlin, it could help especially if you have a Thunderer and a DD with you, which both can also get DoTs in on a ship.

I think using an HE salvo on the Monty would have prevented you getting a permafire from his secondaries in the last second. Or not rushing him and a Z down. Thunderer had full health, let him do something. The closer you get, the more likely it is that they shoot you, and the more shells they can hit.

Also shooting a Harugumo when he is angled is favourable when you have AP loaded, as you got 2 pens for almost 8k just before he died. When you wait till he turns, you only get overpens like in the beginning for like 4k.

 

So in essence:

- You waste your HP too fast, like in the other game. You end the game using 2 heals, even tho you could heal more, but you close the distance, making it impossible to disengage and heal up. Especially in the other game.

- Focus more on using HE aswell, Bourgogne has to do it because of the small caliber. If you want to stand out, you need to use both ammos.

- Dont waste your reloadbooster. crap always happens, suddenly a ship goes dark, but overall you gain very little out of it.

- Too aggressive at times, the only way to get more game influence is to not die.

[POIfection]

MM has broken me ..  I'm going back to the rule of two .. losses in a row means play another game .. just spent 2 hours fighting to get back to a 50% WR for today after losing the first 7 games .. its been like this for a few weeks .. oh MM Lord what did I do to offend you :)

 

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

So this happened last night.
It might have been later on, but that's no excuse. There were other ship types queuing at the time.

Recently had a game with 5 DDs, 1 CA and 5 BBs per side.

I think WG really don't give a toss about players.

[159Hunter]

10 hours ago, DB2212 said:

So this happened last night.
It might have been later on, but that's no excuse. There were other ship types queuing at the time.

No CVs: check

No DDs: check

No HE spamming CLs: check

 

All in all, a dreamgame for a BB I'd say

[ColonelPete]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:55 PM, BlueManCa said:

Well that's cray : you have NO EXPERIENCE of CV and you talk about it.

RIDICULOUS.

Try a CV tier VI in a battle against Tier VIII and come back to tell me after your impressions.

You are going to be disapointed. ^^

I suggest you ask the CV player who was just on my team:

Spoiler

 

[__Hercules_]

On 11/17/2020 at 3:39 PM, BlueManCa said:

I bought recently :

- Loewenhard

- Ark Royal

They are tier 6, When you are in a MM with tier 8, you loose ALL YOU SQUADRON without shooting any rocket or torp.

 

I bouht too Florida.

When you are in a gasme with Tier iX, the game is too difficult.

 

I am not the only one to enouce the unfair of the MM. So, whuy dont you change it thew way i suggest ?

 

In Loewenhard i have no problem in T8 matcher but im are fairly good in CV too so i know which ship i can attack and not attack in the start. looking on your stats and i did see you dont have any reguler CV so now you are a P2D. So go play normal low tier and learn from sratch how to play CV. But yee the are difficult when the are too many T8 but you get good credits in that matcher too.

 

I still want a skill based MM now in Corona time agin the Matcher are horrible 24/7 now and not only weeken 

[zekai7498]

weekend is coming...

 

A Graf Zeppelin player...

[KayaYautja]

Most fun I've ever had in a game! Such wonderful matchmaking, nothing wrong there at all. 

 

May as well have just quit out straight away and saved myself 3 minutes of annoyance.

 

Two in a row now, what am I supposed to do in those matches? Run for the rear border? Just accept my fate and die? edited* (language please)

[DFens_666]

50 minutes ago, KayaYautja said:

Two in a row now, what am I supposed to do in those matches? Run for the rear border?

 

Try to not get spotted so the CV wont go for you (anyway as its a parseval it should be unlikely, since he doesnt have any decent planetype against you)

Then use torps. Or if possible later on, use islands to be unspotted and give fire support.

[KayaYautja]

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Try to not get spotted so the CV wont go for you (anyway as its a parseval it should be unlikely, since he doesnt have any decent planetype against you)

Then use torps. Or if possible later on, use islands to be unspotted and give fire support.

It's a french DD, you get spotted from space. There is no hiding in this ship. Once he finds you he doesn't even need to strike you, which is exactly what happened. Kept me lit up and I got chewed apart by the Cruisers.

[Sambor0]

8 battles lost in row now! I think that's why we don't see now to many good players, which left this game already. Guys with 3k-40k battles with low WR but PR below 1000 is now normal thing. WG joke! They don't give crap anymore for our community! 

 

[aler1x]

On the topic of +-2:

 

I have to say personally I'm mostly fine with MM not accounting for radar differences since the problem there in my opinion lies more on the side of the general balance of radar and radar ships. I'm fine with not having skill-based MM since I don't think it would actually lead to that much of an improvement in terms of game quality and almost any system thinkable to achieve this can be cheesed in some way or another. There also has been some talk about MM not accounting for in-class differences between ships and therefore for example matching gunboats aganist torpedo boats or CLs against supercruisers, but I'm mostly fine with that aswell since it is my impression that such differences have to be adapted to, but they don't pose an inherent advantage for one constellation as long as the relevant ships are properly balanced overall.

 

What I do think would lead to a general improvement in terms of gameplay quality would be a general reduction of MM spread to +-1, not just for T4 and below. What business has a T5 ship, almost any T5 ship, in fighting a T7 ship? Meanwhile most T5 ships are just fine fighting T6, and T5s can't just steamroll across T4s as they could very well do with T3s. Almost every transition from one tier to the next is smooth enough to warrant those two tiers being thrown into one battle together, but contrary to that the jump two tiers up is a really major one across the board, up to the point where, as said above, a direct matching is often outright unfair. And yes, of course for every T8 in one team there is a T8 in the other team, but the whole point of throwing a T6 and a T8 into one game is to create fighting between them, if the argument was that the T6s can go battle the enemy T6s and the T8s can go and battle the enemy T8, then why not give them separate games to do so?

 

Now the main two arguments against +-1 I'm aware of have always been ship diversity and MM time. The first is, in my opinion, not a problem anymore: There are by now so may different ships from so many different tech trees in the game that there you will always have enough opponent diversity even if you only saw +-1 tiers in battle. The second could pose a problem, but I for my part would be happy to wait half a minute for a game if I was then guaranteed to only have a +-1 MM spread. And for the less populated times of the day: Maybe just do it as it is with other MM restrictions already: If MM can't find a game, allow it to ignore restrictions one by one - just please let +-1 not be the first of those.

[DFens_666]

23 minutes ago, aler1x said:

What I do think would lead to a general improvement in terms of gameplay quality would be a general reduction of MM spread to +-1, not just for T4 and below. What business has a T5 ship, almost any T5 ship, in fighting a T7 ship? Meanwhile most T5 ships are just fine fighting T6, and T5s can't just steamroll across T4s as they could very well do with T3s. Almost every transition from one tier to the next is smooth enough to warrant those two tiers being thrown into one battle together, but contrary to that the jump two tiers up is a really major one across the board, up to the point where, as said above, a direct matching is often outright unfair.

 

I think the transition from T7 to T8 is the biggest one, even considering +/-2 except for T6 seeing T8. T8 vs T10 or even T5 vs T7 have less issues than T7 vs T8.

- DDs have worse concealment because T8 get the 5th slot module

- Cruisers cant pen BBs.

- T7 BBs cant overmatch T8 ones, but do get overmatched in return.

Those issues arent really issues for T5 vs T7 or T8 vs T10.

T5 vs T7:

- DDs have better base concealment, and they are smaller too.

- Cruisers can pen BBs, unless they have dreadnought style armor, but overall they can be penned somewhere. And tbf, Cruisers often do struggle anyway, but funnily enough, bigger guns vs thin armor can often create more overpens.

- T5 BBs sometimes even have better sidearmor, thus overmatch is less of an issue. While T5 BBs cant overmatch T7 BBs, they also dont have that many places that can get overmatched (genrally speaking, there are some BBs which are a bit more squishy than others)

T8 vs10:

- Again, DDs tend to have better concealment at T8, which makes fighting higher tier DDs slightly... less hard?

- Same as T5 really, except they lack the heal. Then again, they also lack the heal vs their T9 brethren, so even +/-1 MM wouldnt chage much if they are placed against T9s.

- BBs cant overmatch one another, with the exception of Yamatosushikima, but they also overmatch T9 and T10 BBs.

 

MM was better before they changed it. T5 seeing T7 often was ok, as was T8 seeing T10. Sure, being constantly lowtier does suck, yes, but thats why you should alternate between tiers imo. T6 and T7 got thrown under the bus really hard, while T8 is slightly better, and T9 is kinda the new best tier these days. Fairly often hightier and doesnt encounter CVs that often.

 

Also, while it doesnt seem to make much sense at first glance, +/-2 MM does make it easier at times for the bad/average players. If there is difference in skill, a better player will prevail if the ships are more balanced between each other. But a slightly bigger imbalance, like having a 2 tier higher ship, makes it a bit easier if the person with the lower skillset.

One could also say, being lowtier by 2 does present its own challenge and rewards. You have to do much less than being toptier or even same tier to get a decent amount of XP.  Thats pretty much the reason, why T10 MM is so horrible these days. Thanks to WGs changes, you get a lot of T10 only matches. And too many incompetent teammates, who cant use those ships properly, will inevitable cause roflstomps. 

[159Hunter]

4 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Also, while it doesnt seem to make much sense at first glance, +/-2 MM does make it easier at times for the bad/average players. If there is difference in skill, a better player will prevail if the ships are more balanced between each other. But a slightly bigger imbalance, like having a 2 tier higher ship, makes it a bit easier if the person with the lower skillset.

One could also say, being lowtier by 2 does present its own challenge and rewards. You have to do much less than being toptier or even same tier to get a decent amount of XP.  Thats pretty much the reason, why T10 MM is so horrible these days. Thanks to WGs changes, you get a lot of T10 only matches. And too many incompetent teammates, who cant use those ships properly, will inevitable cause roflstomps. 

This

[aler1x]

Vor 8 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

I think the transition from T7 to T8 is the biggest one, even considering +/-2 except for T6 seeing T8.

Actually I don't think so, the transition is just of a different kind. The transition T5-T6-T7, just like T9-T10, is mostly characterised by a steady increase of the ship's individual stats, while T7-T8, just like T8-T9, is less of an individual increase of the ship and more of a tier-based increase, such as access to the 5th module slot, better plating, some lines getting access to their respective gimmicks etc. for T8-T9 and access to the 6th module slot, a big increase of health pools and DPM values across the board and cruisers getting their heals for T8-T9, and you can play around these tier-based increases. Apart from that the individual increase T7-T8 is absolutely notable, but in my mind again fairly manageable on its own, at least compared to two-tier jumps. The overall increase is notable but exceptionally manageable exactly because of this mixture of tier-based and individual increase: On paper, T8 ships are overall often much stronger than their T7 counterparts, but to me it seems easier to play around those advantages than playing around two-tier-jump advantages. As you mentioned though, some ships are of course hurt way worse than others by the tier-based increases, like badly concealed T7 DDs, 15inch BBs or T7 CLs.

 

Vor 9 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

T8 vs T10 or even T5 vs T7 have less issues than T7 vs T8.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd say it's exactly the other way 'round: T5 vs T7, T7 vs T9 or T8 vs T10, especially with certain ships, feels REALLY oppressive,while T7 vs T8 is a very notable, yet manageable difference most of the time (excluding some slightly more stupid things like Cossack's concealment): You are at a disadvantage, but if you are aware of that and play to your strengths you can still have a good game, while playing against +2 most od the time means playing extremely cautiously or outright hiding somewhere unles you want to get utterly murdered.

 

Vor 9 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

T9 is kinda the new best tier these days. Fairly often hightier and doesnt encounter CVs that often.

Agreed. Not having to play against CVs nearly as often is obviously an advantage.

 

Vor 9 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

Also, while it doesnt seem to make much sense at first glance, +/-2 MM does make it easier at times for the bad/average players. If there is difference in skill, a better player will prevail if the ships are more balanced between each other. But a slightly bigger imbalance, like having a 2 tier higher ship, makes it a bit easier if the person with the lower skillset.

You're right, I forgot this argument before. But to meit doesn't seem to work: Firstly, statistically for every time a payer can enjoy his tier-based advantage in a high-tier battle they have to endure this advantge playing against them in a low-tier battle. The dynamic you're describing could only work in a single-player game or if battles were systematically filled with low-tier bots. Otherwise you can only have this skill-mediating systematic in favor of T10 players, and then it statistically flies in the face of players of lower tiers.

 

Vor 9 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

Thanks to WGs changes, you get a lot of T10 only matches. And too many incompetent teammates, who cant use those ships properly, will inevitable cause roflstomps. 

I don't see why this should be a specific problem of single-tier battles, as the theoretical power balance of two teams is independent from their MM spread, so that bad players, regardless of their ship's tier, will always be a mark against their team compared to a better player they are directly matched against. And while a good T10 player can obviously accomplish way more for their team in a T8-T10 battle than in a T10 only battle, a bad T10 player in a T8-T10 can be a much bigger liability for their team in a T8-T10 battle than in a T10 only battle on the flip side. Basically, the team with the better players will always have the advantage, regardless of tier or MM spread, because by tier battles are matched evenly.

 

Vor 9 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

One could also say, being lowtier by 2 does present its own challenge and rewards. You have to do much less than being toptier or even same tier to get a decent amount of XP.

One could most certainly say that. This is just really not the kind of challenge I enjoy, but I guess maybe that's just me again ?

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, aler1x said:

Maybe it's just me, but I'd say it's exactly the other way 'round: T5 vs T7, T7 vs T9 or T8 vs T10, especially with certain ships, feels REALLY oppressive,while T7 vs T8 is a very notable, yet manageable difference most of the time (excluding some slightly more stupid things like Cossack's concealment): You are at a disadvantage, but if you are aware of that and play to your strengths you can still have a good game, while playing against +2 most od the time means playing extremely cautiously or outright hiding somewhere unles you want to get utterly murdered. 

 

Well +/-2 also depends very much on the ship in question. Ofc T7 vs T9 is worse than T7 vs T8, but overall id say, T7 vs T8 has more issues than 5 vs 7 or 8 vs 10. I think the counterplay options are easier for those tiers.

DDs, as i mentioned before, usually have better concealment, made a quick list (didnt take russian/EU DDs)

 

 

Only the Shira can beat 3 T5 DDs in concealment, and only the Jaguar has worse concealment than 2 T7 DDs (+ on par with Jervis). All others often have an acceptable window to spot the T7 DD without too much risk involved. And lets not forget, Shira is one of the most squishy DDs around with only 12800 HP or 15250 with SE. Which is much less (from now on all with SE) than the Jaguars 18350, and only slightly more than Nicholas' 14850 while having less DPM. Jianwei loses the race with only 14250 HP and really low DPM.

T7 vs 8?

Even the worst (Le Fantasque) only loses against 3 T7s, while Jervis is so close that you basicly can not avoid being spotted or losing the spot right away. Meanwhile, 4 of them have basicly better concealment than all of the T7s. Even Akizuki can outspot all T7s except Shira, and Z-23 can ouspot all but Shira and Gadjah.

 

Cruisers ofc struggle often anyway, as we basicly agreed on. Its often just a question of being shat on, or being shat on harder. Either way it requires cautious play, and only very few exceptions give them room for being aggressive (Balti vs 380mm caliber BBs f.e.)

 

BBs it really depends... some are kinda tanky even when uptiered (Germans/Russians) while others struggle even against sametier (KGV/DoY, and also Colo/Nagato to some degree). And those 4 can be really screwed seeing T8 BBs due to mentioned overmatch. While their caliber can be the same or even exceed it (vs Bismarck and co f.e.), its still not enough.

While -2 tier BBs ofc often lack in HP/tanking power, their armor on T5 is still good. Most of them actually have a midsection which cant get overmatched by T7s (except US, and Kongo does have a fairly large area bow/stern), most others only have small areas bow/stern to be overmatched or even non at all... looking at you Pyotr, aka russian iron ball.