Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[mil71]

Lost 8 games today, won 1.

If it keeps it up I won't be playing again for a long time.

First game a friendly Republique tried to tk a friendly and killed himself.

Next game a friendly DD torped a CV

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

- No no no no, if you match on WR, everyone will converge on a 50% WR. No, in this system the old WR is no longer relevant, it is replaced by class and rating within class.

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

- But but but, my cherished, polished WR will evaporate. Yes it will, but you will be 5. Expert and may rank top of the tops instead. 

 

That is mutual exclusive.

So my WR wont drop, but then my WR will drop? Which one is it.

 

Also you forgot divisions f.e. with players from group 3 and 5.

[Sea_w0lf]

15 minutes ago, mil71 said:

Lost 8 games today, won 1.

If it keeps it up I won't be playing again for a long time.

First game a friendly Republique tried to tk a friendly and killed himself.

Next game a friendly DD torped a CV

Won 7 today lost 2.
So because you had 2 potatoes in your battles this is not fault of matchmaking parameters.. The system can't enter in the brain of each player to see how will play the battle, if will yolo or play serious, its absolutely random.

[binky121]

5 hours ago, Camperdown said:

 

No, I will not try to convince you why it would work. I don't like repetetive discussions.

 

But I will try to explain once more why I think it would work and why the arguments it won't are invalid. Do with it what you like.

So here goes nothing.

 

My proposal is:

All players shall fall into 5 classes: 

1. Noobs and glue sniffers

2. Meh

3. Average

4. Gud

5. Expert

 

When introduced, players are distributed on current winrate, each class 20% of players. New players start in 1. Noob. If you win, your rating within your class rises, until you are top of your class, and you promote to the bottom of the next class. Same, if you lose, you rating drops untill you hit the bottom of your class and get demoted to a lower class. Each class keeps 20% of the players. This is a sort of ELO rating system.

 

Matchmaking takes place preferentially with players of comparable rating. So within your class if there are enough players online. If there are fewer players online, you may be matched with adjacent classes as well. So, if you are 3. Average, you may be matched with 2. Meh or 4. Gud as well. So you will be matched with 40% of the player base. If there are not even enough players for that and waiting times become to high, you may be matched with any player, basically the current frustrating mess. But that will only happen at slow hours. The rest of the time, you will be playing against opponents of much more comparable skill level. 

 

Now the arguments against.

- No no no no, if you match on WR, everyone will converge on a 50% WR. No, in this system the old WR is no longer relevant, it is replaced by class and rating within class.

- This no possible, waiting times will skyrocket cause you can only match with part of the player base. No, if there are too few players available, the MM system will dynamically broaden the players you can be matched with, so that queue times stay acceptable. Waiting times will go up a bit because you are matched to a smaller section of the player base, but worst case you have the current yuck and you play against all comers.

- But but but, I have a 30% WR in ship X and 60% in ship Y. So I will be cr@p in ship X. Yes you will be, and your rating will sink when you play, just as your average WR will in the current system.

- But but but, my cherished, polished WR will evaporate. Yes it will, but you will be 5. Expert and may rank top of the tops instead. 

 

Let me know if I missed any relevant objections.

 

The great advantage of this system is that most of the time, you will be matched with teams of more or less comparable skills. The current rofl stomp frustration of noobs playing with unicums causing games that are brutish, nasty and short* will be gone most of the times. Game experience will get a lot more satisfying for all. You want to goof around and have phun^TM? Go ahead, knock yourself out in the 1. Glue sniffer class. You want to play seriously and have serious games? Go ahead and conquer my lad. You are an average guy? Noone is yelling at you any more (at least if you play on busy hours).

 

Now for some reason WG and a lot of players and a certain moderator that shall not be mentioned dont like this. Why, beats me. I would love to be rid of the current mad house MM.  

 

* yes, educated readers, that was a reference to Hobbes

Perfect :) now all we have to do is force wargaming to implement it :D shame its never going to happen :(

 

[GotLANFloppy]

I just want to whine a little on the good old +2/-2. When you have a match as for example a t7 and you are up tiered/down tiered (so 9s or 5s) but there are no 8s/6s it sort of feels a tad unfair. In the screenshot below you'll see a case of this where the game wasn't so much about what team was the best but rather "wich team had the best tier nines". I've played this game for five years now and the MM has come along way so it's not such a big complaint/rant (I mean I know how this game works). Anyway enjoy this screenshot of glorious MM ;)

I would also love for there to be tiered player levels as suggested above :)

[GarrusBrutus]

7 hours ago, Camperdown said:

The current rofl stomp frustration of noobs playing with unicums causing games that are brutish, nasty and short* will be gone most of the times. Game experience will get a lot more satisfying for all.

 

 

Now for some reason WG and a lot of players and a certain moderator that shall not be mentioned dont like this. Why, beats me. I would love to be rid of the current mad house MM. 

Oh you sweet summer child... I wish they could implement your proposal for lets say...a month. It would actually be funny to watch.

7 hours ago, Camperdown said:

Now the arguments against.

- No no no no, if you match on WR, everyone will converge on a 50% WR. No, in this system the old WR is no longer relevant, it is replaced by class and rating within class.

So the placement or ranking within your system is based on winning and losing aka winrate. So winrate is the best indicator of a players' skill? A lot of people on this forum have argued otherwise since its too easy to rig.

What happens if you put all current 35% player in a pool and let them fight amongst each other? Hey presto, they all get more or less 50% wr. Sounds great right? They've gained 15% more winrate! Everyone loves winning more games. However, in the long run all players will be in their own league having 50% WR's. At that point it doesnt matter how bad they play, eventually they'll face an equally abysmal team.

 

What would prevent me from intentionally losing my way down to the noobs, so I could enjoy an epic winstreak back up to the pros, rinse and repeat?

 

The matchmaking will still put random players in a team albeit from a smaller group. Players will still complain: "I lost 10 times in a row because matchmaking put me in the losing team. Its unfair.". Or should such a scenario be impossible because this player is fighting same skill opposition only? Which would imply the results over the long run are predetermined.

It's different in clanbattles where you participate as a team. Its different in ranked due to the progression system and starsaving system.

 

But most of all: Where is the incentive to try and win? Where is the incentive to learn from your mistakes and get better? If i win I get "rewarded" with tougher opposition. Why would I want that when I just want to chill out after a hard days work. If I want to test my skill I can play clanbattles and/or ranked battles and/or third party tournaments such as KotS. Why would a new player try to learn new tricks to become that great player? I learned a lot by playing with and against way better players. How will you ever learn those things as a beginner with an ELO system in place?

Or do you get more XP/credits when playing amongst pro's? Imagine the outrage lol. "I should be in 5th tier but matchmaking keeps putting me in bad teams so im stuck in 4th tier.". Or do all tiers get the same amount of credits/xp? Because then i could just lose games on purpose and farm some easy credits/xp down with the beginners.

7 hours ago, Camperdown said:

- This no possible, waiting times will skyrocket cause you can only match with part of the player base. No, if there are too few players available, the MM system will dynamically broaden the players you can be matched with, so that queue times stay acceptable. Waiting times will go up a bit because you are matched to a smaller section of the player base, but worst case you have the current yuck and you play against all comers.

So if you can only play during the morning/night its too bad. Sadly the system only works during the afternoon/evening when most people are online. Or be prepared to wait half of the night for a few games. Yikes.

8 hours ago, Camperdown said:

- But but but, I have a 30% WR in ship X and 60% in ship Y. So I will be cr@p in ship X. Yes you will be, and your rating will sink when you play, just as your average WR will in the current system.

What would be a players' incentive to play one of their "bad" ships that hurts their rating in the elo system?

8 hours ago, Camperdown said:

- But but but, my cherished, polished WR will evaporate. Yes it will, but you will be 5. Expert and may rank top of the tops instead. 

So those players who are good at the game and who like winning get rewarded by playing amongst themselves and .....win less? Okay. But what is the reward for reaching that?

All an ELO system does is making a casual gamemode "Randoms" less casual by implementing a zero sum game behind it. With skill-based matchmaking, players are exposed to nothing but difficult matches. There is only one match style: intense, difficult, and sweaty. Would you like that?

8 hours ago, Camperdown said:

Now for some reason WG and a lot of players and a certain moderator that shall not be mentioned dont like this. Why, beats me. I would love to be rid of the current mad house MM.  

Ofcourse you do. You play solo. You are average. All it would do is remove divisions, the better and the worse players out of your games. But that doesnt mean it works the same for all other players.

Some of us like to play in divisions with friends which would be no longer possible.

[159Hunter]

11 hours ago, Camperdown said:

My proposal is:

All players shall fall into 5 classes: 

1. Noobs and glue sniffers

2. Meh

3. Average

4. Gud

5. Expert

 

When introduced, players are distributed on current winrate, each class 20% of players.

Just out of curiousity, do you know what group would be linked to the current distribution of players' WR.

11 hours ago, Camperdown said:

New players start in 1. Noob.

So you will let players who don't know the game play with the worst of the pack. How on earth are they to improve if all they get is terrible examples of gameplay?

 

The one main point you failed to adress with your issue is that we have multiple classes and tiers in this game.

I've met countless players who, on account WR look unicum, until you see that:

- they've played 1000's of games at tier I and suck at anything above it,

- players statpadding in CVs and sucking at everything else,

- some ppl just do bad in high tiers,

- some ppl play tons of "OP premiums" and suck at everything else

-....
So if you think the frustration from meeting people who play terrible in your games will go away, you're in for shocker.

[Bear__Necessities]

12 hours ago, Camperdown said:

 

No, I will not try to convince you why it would work. I don't like repetetive discussions.

 

But I will try to explain once more why I think it would work and why the arguments it won't are invalid. Do with it what you like.

So here goes nothing.

 

My proposal is:

All players shall fall into 5 classes: 

1. Noobs and glue sniffers

2. Meh

3. Average

4. Gud

5. Expert

 

When introduced, players are distributed on current winrate, each class 20% of players. New players start in 1. Noob. If you win, your rating within your class rises, until you are top of your class, and you promote to the bottom of the next class. Same, if you lose, you rating drops untill you hit the bottom of your class and get demoted to a lower class. Each class keeps 20% of the players. This is a sort of ELO rating system.

 

Matchmaking takes place preferentially with players of comparable rating. So within your class if there are enough players online. If there are fewer players online, you may be matched with adjacent classes as well. So, if you are 3. Average, you may be matched with 2. Meh or 4. Gud as well. So you will be matched with 40% of the player base. If there are not even enough players for that and waiting times become to high, you may be matched with any player, basically the current frustrating mess. But that will only happen at slow hours. The rest of the time, you will be playing against opponents of much more comparable skill level. 

 

Now the arguments against.

- No no no no, if you match on WR, everyone will converge on a 50% WR. No, in this system the old WR is no longer relevant, it is replaced by class and rating within class.

- This no possible, waiting times will skyrocket cause you can only match with part of the player base. No, if there are too few players available, the MM system will dynamically broaden the players you can be matched with, so that queue times stay acceptable. Waiting times will go up a bit because you are matched to a smaller section of the player base, but worst case you have the current yuck and you play against all comers.

- But but but, I have a 30% WR in ship X and 60% in ship Y. So I will be cr@p in ship X. Yes you will be, and your rating will sink when you play, just as your average WR will in the current system.

- But but but, my cherished, polished WR will evaporate. Yes it will, but you will be 5. Expert and may rank top of the tops instead. 

 

Let me know if I missed any relevant objections.

 

The great advantage of this system is that most of the time, you will be matched with teams of more or less comparable skills. The current rofl stomp frustration of noobs playing with unicums causing games that are brutish, nasty and short* will be gone most of the times. Game experience will get a lot more satisfying for all. You want to goof around and have phun^TM? Go ahead, knock yourself out in the 1. Glue sniffer class. You want to play seriously and have serious games? Go ahead and conquer my lad. You are an average guy? Noone is yelling at you any more (at least if you play on busy hours).

 

Now for some reason WG and a lot of players and a certain moderator that shall not be mentioned dont like this. Why, beats me. I would love to be rid of the current mad house MM.  

 

* yes, educated readers, that was a reference to Hobbes

So punish good players with super long waiting times and reward the bad players...... Right. You loon. 

[Excavatus]

15 hours ago, Camperdown said:

But I will try to explain once more why I think it would work and why the arguments it won't are invalid. Do with it what you like.

So here goes nothing

My 2 main arguments about how it won't work, which I've repeated numerous times has never ever been address by anyone, 

 

1st: teams should stay intact for a SBMM to work, for teams to stay balanced. In a game with no respawn and high RNG you cannot have balanced teams. First ship dies, the balance goes off the roof. With High RNG, lets say, me as a tier 8 carrier, detonate your tier 10 DD with my second salvo.. just about 1:30 into the game.. what now? where is the balance? or what happens when one of your players goes AFK? how about one TKs another in the first 3mins.. If these players are not coming back into the game? where is the balance. The SBMM will actually increase the snowball effect not decrease... 

 

2nd: how do you plan to measure skill? to put people in? I'm gonna give the same example... Myself.. people said we can measure with WR.. ok.. general WR? Ship WR? tier WR? Class WR? how? because.. for example, If you get general WR, 

 

My General WR: 

 

 

how about when I play Entreprise, or midway..? 

 

or how about taking class WR? lets say I wanna play cruisers..? 

Where do you put me in my moskva.. or in my helena? 

 

 

How about 2 tier 10 BBs for me? same class, same tier.. 

 

Montana and GK

 

Or lets say, I want to play DDs... 

Kagero or yugumo.. basically very similar DDs.. 

 

 

Where do you think the MM will put me? what to take into considerations? 

 

Summary of my second point is, an ELO or whatever you call system, cannot work with ships.. 

in other games, they have Stats to consider of a SINGLE player.. 

 

We have 4 different types (with some subtypes), 10 different tiers, with different MM brackets... 

It won't work.. 

 

[Camperdown]

3 hours ago, Excavatus said:

My 2 main arguments about how it won't work, which I've repeated numerous times has never ever been address by anyone, 

 

1st: teams should stay intact for a SBMM to work, for teams to stay balanced. In a game with no respawn and high RNG you cannot have balanced teams. First ship dies, the balance goes off the roof. With High RNG, lets say, me as a tier 8 carrier, detonate your tier 10 DD with my second salvo.. just about 1:30 into the game.. what now? where is the balance? or what happens when one of your players goes AFK? how about one TKs another in the first 3mins.. If these players are not coming back into the game? where is the balance. The SBMM will actually increase the snowball effect not decrease... 

 

2nd: how do you plan to measure skill? to put people in? I'm gonna give the same example... Myself.. people said we can measure with WR.. ok.. general WR? Ship WR? tier WR? Class WR? how? because.. for example, If you get general WR, 

 

My General WR: 

 

 

Quote

 

Where do you think the MM will put me? what to take into considerations? 

 

Summary of my second point is, an ELO or whatever you call system, cannot work with ships.. 

in other games, they have Stats to consider of a SINGLE player.. 

 

We have 4 different types (with some subtypes), 10 different tiers, with different MM brackets... 

It won't work.. 

 

 

No system is going to be perfect.

I think my proposal trades a bit of extra waiting time for more evenly matched teams. 

 

As to your 1st point: this is no different in my proposal from the current situation. At some point teams will start to lose ships and the battle becomes unbalanced. However, this will happen much more quickly and decisively in the current system, because glue sniffers play unicums. With all players on both sides having roughly comparable skill, it will happen less quickly. So it will not fix it, but it will improve it to the point we will see much fewer stomps as we see now.

 

As to your 2nd point: I propose to simply use average score (ELO, WR within class, however you arange it). Yes, everyone will have quite some variation in WR between classes and ships. Again, it will not be perfect and fix this completely, but it will be enough of an improvement to avoid some of the worst MM mess we have now. Yes, if you play a ship that you are not very good at, you will do worse. But you are on average a very good player, so even in a less suited ship you will not be as terrible as some of the 40% average WR players. On average, the teams will be better matched.

[Camperdown]

7 hours ago, Bear__Necessities said:

So punish good players with super long waiting times and reward the bad players...... Right. You loon. 

 

Well, thats a classic strawman attack and a gratuitous insult to boot. I remember now why I was reluctant to re-enter this discussion

 

No, if waiting times get too long, the MM will broaden the range of players you are matched with. So, in busy hours, you will be matched to your own skill class and perhaps 1 adjacent class, so 20-40% of the player base. During low traffic hours the MM will broaden to 60, 80 or even 100% of the player base and waiting times will be managed.

 

And how exactly does this reward bad players ???

[Camperdown]

8 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Just out of curiousity, do you know what group would be linked to the current distribution of players' WR.

So you will let players who don't know the game play with the worst of the pack. How on earth are they to improve if all they get is terrible examples of gameplay?

 

The one main point you failed to adress with your issue is that we have multiple classes and tiers in this game.

I've met countless players who, on account WR look unicum, until you see that:

- they've played 1000's of games at tier I and suck at anything above it,

- players statpadding in CVs and sucking at everything else,

- some ppl just do bad in high tiers,

- some ppl play tons of "OP premiums" and suck at everything else

-....
So if you think the frustration from meeting people who play terrible in your games will go away, you're in for shocker.

 

Yes, new players will start at the bottom with the 40% WR crowd. This gives them much easier targets than the unicums they may also face now. Once they get better, they will quickly promote to the next class. I see many new players with quite decent WR (low forties). That will already qualify them for the 2. Meh class.

 

Your other point I have addressed in my answer to Excavatus. Yes, players will have varying results with different ships. But that is already the case in the current system. My proposal will not make it perfect, but improve the MM enough to avoid the worst cr@p.

[Camperdown]

11 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Oh you sweet summer child... I wish they could implement your proposal for lets say...a month. It would actually be funny to watch.

So the placement or ranking within your system is based on winning and losing aka winrate. So winrate is the best indicator of a players' skill? A lot of people on this forum have argued otherwise since its too easy to rig.

What happens if you put all current 35% player in a pool and let them fight amongst each other? Hey presto, they all get more or less 50% wr. Sounds great right? They've gained 15% more winrate! Everyone loves winning more games. However, in the long run all players will be in their own league having 50% WR's. At that point it doesnt matter how bad they play, eventually they'll face an equally abysmal team.

 

What would prevent me from intentionally losing my way down to the noobs, so I could enjoy an epic winstreak back up to the pros, rinse and repeat?

 

The matchmaking will still put random players in a team albeit from a smaller group. Players will still complain: "I lost 10 times in a row because matchmaking put me in the losing team. Its unfair.". Or should such a scenario be impossible because this player is fighting same skill opposition only? Which would imply the results over the long run are predetermined.

It's different in clanbattles where you participate as a team. Its different in ranked due to the progression system and starsaving system.

 

But most of all: Where is the incentive to try and win? Where is the incentive to learn from your mistakes and get better? If i win I get "rewarded" with tougher opposition. Why would I want that when I just want to chill out after a hard days work. If I want to test my skill I can play clanbattles and/or ranked battles and/or third party tournaments such as KotS. Why would a new player try to learn new tricks to become that great player? I learned a lot by playing with and against way better players. How will you ever learn those things as a beginner with an ELO system in place?

Or do you get more XP/credits when playing amongst pro's? Imagine the outrage lol. "I should be in 5th tier but matchmaking keeps putting me in bad teams so im stuck in 4th tier.". Or do all tiers get the same amount of credits/xp? Because then i could just lose games on purpose and farm some easy credits/xp down with the beginners.

So if you can only play during the morning/night its too bad. Sadly the system only works during the afternoon/evening when most people are online. Or be prepared to wait half of the night for a few games. Yikes.

What would be a players' incentive to play one of their "bad" ships that hurts their rating in the elo system?

So those players who are good at the game and who like winning get rewarded by playing amongst themselves and .....win less? Okay. But what is the reward for reaching that?

All an ELO system does is making a casual gamemode "Randoms" less casual by implementing a zero sum game behind it. With skill-based matchmaking, players are exposed to nothing but difficult matches. There is only one match style: intense, difficult, and sweaty. Would you like that?

Ofcourse you do. You play solo. You are average. All it would do is remove divisions, the better and the worse players out of your games. But that doesnt mean it works the same for all other players.

Some of us like to play in divisions with friends which would be no longer possible.

 

Your incentive to win is the same as now: it is fun to win and it will improve your standing. If you dont want to win, why play this game?

If you want to try to manipulate the system: go ahead: statistically the impact will be manageable.

Your incentive to play a ship you are bad in is no different from the current system. If you play a less successful ship your WR suffers. 

Divisions is a good point, I think there are various ways to handle that. You could average the ranks of the div and match based on that, or perhaps limit the difference in class within a div to 1 or 2, e.g. if you are 5. Expert you can only div up with classes 3-5. Many people like playing in divs, so there should be a good solution for that. 

 

[ForlornSailor]

19 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

If you dont want to win, why play this game?

 

I ask this every time a 40% Kartoffel is throwing the win away. Usually I get insulted in return and told to leave him alone, since he has more fun then I do.

 

And you gave the perfect reason, why all of us having a predermined 50% WR is boring and would eventually lead to the death of the game. 

 

Overall, I dont understand why some people want to mess with the random game mode. You have Clanbattles after all if you look for skill based match ups.

 

And Ive asked this question about 20 times in this topic and yet to receive an answer - I wonder why? Why do you think its good to punish good player for them beeing good? Every skill based mm system, no matter how many have been preseted, punish good players and and rewards bad players. In your system, bad players get the same rewards as the good players, possibly even better. In a game, where everything turns around XP and credits - how would that be acceptable? Or you want to lower XP constantly so that the bad players in group 1 are hardly above Coop XP, effectivly locking them out of any XP-based missions. Alternative, you need to give players in super unicum group base XP up to 5000~6000 on a win.

[Camperdown]

31 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I ask this every time a 40% Kartoffel is throwing the win away. Usually I get insulted in return and told to leave him alone, since he has more fun then I do.

 

And you gave the perfect reason, why all of us having a predermined 50% WR is boring and would eventually lead to the death of the game. 

 

Overall, I dont understand why some people want to mess with the random game mode. You have Clanbattles after all if you look for skill based match ups.

 

And Ive asked this question about 20 times in this topic and yet to receive an answer - I wonder why? Why do you think its good to punish good player for them beeing good? Every skill based mm system, no matter how many have been preseted, punish good players and and rewards bad players. In your system, bad players get the same rewards as the good players, possibly even better. In a game, where everything turns around XP and credits - how would that be acceptable? Or you want to lower XP constantly so that the bad players in group 1 are hardly above Coop XP, effectivly locking them out of any XP-based missions. Alternative, you need to give players in super unicum group base XP up to 5000~6000 on a win.

 

Ah, thanks, as a win oriented player I had overlooked the XP and credit point. Sorry, just now I realise that would negatively impact very good players. 

I assume you would have to compensate for that. I dont know how the math would work on this, but could you increase the rewards for higher class players to compensate?

 

As for everyone having a 50% WR: no, I dont think that would need to be the outcome. If you are a unicum now, you would be a class 5. Expert in the new system, and you could also show your relative position in classes. So you would be top rank in the expert group. I guess that would be enough distinction.

 

Why I would like to have a better random MM: I am a solo player, I dont want the restraints of clan battles. Random is the standard play type, and I think it stinks that MM is so poor in randoms. 

But that is just my preference. The question I responded too was: it cannot work. I think it can. But WG wont do it, and many people here seem to prefer the current system. So, there you are 

[DFens_666]

8 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

and many people here seem to prefer the current system.

 

The system is indeed not the problem - the playerbase is, or ultimatively WG is, since they allow anyone without experience to play T9-10 with whaling (more or less).

If you would move all those players down to midtiers, who have no business in hightiers, game would be pretty nice. You have less but better players in hightiers and more players in midtiers, who are atleast more capable than if they would play their Yamato.

And you might aswell just ban people, who refuse to play when they are lowtier, who constantly go AFK and all that other crap they pull.

[Excavatus]

@Camperdown

 

just one question.. 

Have you ever heard the utter disaster called "Armored Warfare"? 

[GarrusBrutus]

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

Your incentive to win is the same as now: it is fun to win and it will improve your standing. If you dont want to win, why play this game?

Havent you played the game lately? It seems like most of the players currently do not want to win to the point where it is beyond inability. It is sheer reluctance to be somewhat competetive in a game. Full blown solo sailing simulator 2020 behavior.

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

If you want to try to manipulate the system: go ahead: statistically the impact will be manageable.

Yet it will yield the same problems we face today. Players sabotaging games for their own interest.

Do you know why some players rush in and die every game? Because they get more xp and credits playing 10 games an hour like this than when they play 3 "normal" games. That is the issue here.

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

Your incentive to play a ship you are bad in is no different from the current system. If you play a less successful ship your WR suffers. 

Lets assume im in the expert bracket here. To stay there I have to play my best game every time. If I cant, due to playing a ship im not good at, I drop down. Now why would I want that? So no, there is no incentive for me to play weak ships. Each bracket will have a meta, just like in ranked and clanbattles. Making the game stale. Now it is exactly how it should be: Random. I can play random ships against random people.

59 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

As for everyone having a 50% WR: no, I dont think that would need to be the outcome. If you are a unicum now, you would be a class 5. Expert in the new system, and you could also show your relative position in classes. So you would be top rank in the expert group. I guess that would be enough distinction.

Sorry Camperdown, but how can you not understand how such a thing would turn out:

If you put all current 60% SOLO wr players in teams against each other, everyone will eventually stagnate around 50% wr. It is simply how math works.......... Or they get tired of having to play their best game every game and they drop down a bracket, until eventually they'll have a 50% WR there as well.

 

It is not fun. It kills the game.

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

Why I would like to have a better random MM: I am a solo player, I dont want the restraints of clan battles. Random is the standard play type, and I think it stinks that MM is so poor in randoms. 

I dont want the stress of clan battles. Random is the standard play type for leisure games.

Matchmaking is perfect as it is, too bad the playerbase gets increasingly worse as time goes by.

 

 

Just to be clear: I hate rofl stomps as much as the next guy. But its not the fault of matchmaking. Its completely WARGAMINGS fault for the way they designed the reward-system in this game. Financially its brilliant. Thousands and thousands of cashcows addicted to buying the next best shiny ship. But over the years you get increasingly more totally inadequate captains in high tier ships. That is the root of the problem. Not matchmaking. Not the unicums. Not the average joes. No, its wargaming selling their products to these inexperienced players without properly teaching them their game.

[ForlornSailor]

58 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

But WG wont do it, and many people here seem to prefer the current system.

 

"prefer" is too much to say. Im not defending the current system per se, its just I dont see an improvement since it will change nothing about the core problem: the questionable skill and will to learn the basics of the playerbase.

 

This morning I saw some super questionable gameplay of an loyang player. The game wasnt even 15 sec old and I could spot his mistakes. Checked his stats after wards and it confirmed. I thought, ill try to approach him and wrote him a port message. I was prepare for the discussion to go any way. But it turned out, that player had problems understanding the game and what was going on. I actually calmed down a bit and threw him so links to education videos (the basic WG series). He had never heard of them and was super happy that I did started to talk to him. I explained a few basic things, that ive seen him doing wrong in the game, which seemed to have an "aah I see" effect on him. Thats the end of about an hour back and forth, questions answered, links send. Im actually happy, I did made the decision to write him and did so in a rather friendly way, not telling him how he s**** etc. Most people dont play bad because they chose so or like it, its because they dont know better. WG does a really bad job at explaining how to actually play the game...

 

[Camperdown]

6 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

@Camperdown

 

just one question.. 

Have you ever heard the utter disaster called "Armored Warfare"? 

Nope

 

[GarrusBrutus]

4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

WG does a really bad job at explaining how to actually play the game...

QFT

It would be sooooooooooo incredibly beneficial for this game when wargaming just takes the worst performing 25% of the playerbase by the hand and shows them how the basics work.

[SV_Kompresor]

I have an alternative solution to the "matchmaking problem", as it's not the fault of MM for the poor experiences in game but rather the players themselves. The solution is to simply double (or otherwise appropriately increase) ship research costs (or increasing purchase costs via credits). Now hear me out before you grab your pichforks. Just like with FXP, there's been a massive XP inflation. Simply put, you get more and more of it with every patch, while research costs remain the same. (WG somewhat countered the FXP inflation by increasing the cost of freemium ships). This causes bad as well as new players to get up the tiers way too fast without having learned anything along the way. Increased research costs would slow them down and force them to get used to the ships they're in. Now, I know that many of you will argue that "this is just adding grind and is another way for greedy WG to want to sell FXP" and I will say that no, it is not adding grind...it is returning it. Back to the way it was. The whole point of this game is grinding (and hopefully having fun doing it). A veteran getting to tier 10 in 30 battles is way too fast. A new player getting to tier 10 in 500 is also way too fast. It's been getting progresively easier and faster to grind upwards and while many might like that, it was clearly bad for the game. If it wasn't we wouldn't need this thread.

[DFens_666]

53 minutes ago, domen3 said:

The solution is to simply double (or otherwise appropriately increase) ship research costs

 

Im pretty sure its by design, that earning XP is easier these days. If you can progress faster than you can earn credits, you are kinda being forced to spent money to get credits, be it premium acc, premium ships or outright credits.

[Bear__Necessities]

7 hours ago, Camperdown said:

 

Well, thats a classic strawman attack and a gratuitous insult to boot. I remember now why I was reluctant to re-enter this discussion

 

No, if waiting times get too long, the MM will broaden the range of players you are matched with. So, in busy hours, you will be matched to your own skill class and perhaps 1 adjacent class, so 20-40% of the player base. During low traffic hours the MM will broaden to 60, 80 or even 100% of the player base and waiting times will be managed.

 

And how exactly does this reward bad players ???

 

So your solution to long waiting times is MM becomes the same.... right. Yeah. So the whole point was again?....

 

And it rewards bad players by giving them better waiting times for games. Not rocket science. For the record, my NA account that I currently grind is within the 0.07% of players. My 2nd main clan account on NA is within the top 0.2% and this account, my EU account is within the top 1.1%. That includes players who have since left. So, how long do you think It's going to take to find me a suitable MM bracket, especially as quiet times which for me is when I play due to shifts....

 

In short, your arguments have been picked apart from multiple angles by multiple experienced players and you have nothing but stubborn refusal to acknowledge it's not suitable for this game. Like I said, loon. 

[159Hunter]

@domen3 how is increasing XP research cost going to help? If all ppl with over 10000 games would be good I could see the point, but there's plenty of utter tatos with huge amounts of games.

So playing more will not make them play better. It will not keep them out of high tier games as WG just throws high tier premiums and freemiums around.