Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[Floofz]

7 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

I am a bit lost here, @Floofz what is your solution?

 

Make ranked/ranked sprint a constant mode, like a season, where divisioning is allowed. Could even not have CVs or subs in it. There would be no rank 1, youd rank in accordance to WR (or something else I dont know) compared to other players.

 

Remove stats entirely from random battles and make it untrackable. WR, average XP, average damage, everything. Make random a place to farm, relax and and have fun with no pressure. Doesnt matter that much if you win or lose (only that you get less xp/credits). The purpose would be to make the playerbase less angry and frustrated. I know Im talking about myself here but I am not the only one to think this game is more frustrating than it needs to be.

 

I would love to do the other things I wrote about preventing bad players from reaching higher tiers etc but its impossible to do at this point unfortunately. Loss of revenue for WG and the fact that so many players already are at high tiers.

[GarrusBrutus]

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

You are aware I actualy agreed with this? That SBMM would kill the game for that exact reason? You did read that right? I did also go on to say THAT ME PERSONALLY would prefer such a system because I dont GIVE A SH*T about winning or losing, I want an actual BATTLE, where stuff happens and tactical play matters.

I DO NOT want the battle to be over in 5 minutes with one side losing all their ships, or noone takes caps because they dont even understand what caps do.

And THAT IS what happens now, so CLEARLY this system doesnt work EITHER.

Ah so now you agree that SBMM wouldnt work in this game, good. Also interesting how you do not care about winning or losing. Because everybody cares to some extend.

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

Fun fact, I have NEVER used an MM monitor before or during the game. I only see it after the game.

Yeah sure. So you just use it to confirm your team had "AlL tHe GoOd PlAyErS"?

 

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

Tanks does not have fast techtree and research dude, it takes FOREVER to get to tier 10. Ive played over 2k battles in tanks and my highest tank is tier 8. It takes under 30 games to get to tier 10 in warships. Yet the quality of games regardless of tier is exactly the same.

WoT has exactly the same amount of steamrolls as WoWs. I know that, and its had it for longer, which is exactly why I brought it up as an example. Because it doesnt have the same issues you claim cause bad players, it simply doesnt.

I didnt state anything about any tech trees or  research speeds. Why do you twist my words?

I wrote:

"- huge skill disparity between players

- no respawn mechanic

- fast ttk

WoT has exactly the same issues that cause steamrolls, hence the game is plagued by steamrolls just like wows."

The longer these kind of games exist the worse the steamrolls are going to get. Its the format of the game and its lifecycle. You can trhow a tantrum on the forum about it but that will not change a thing sadly.

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

No I base it on one simple thing. That I used to love this game, that I used to come home every day to play it and enjoy it. I could play 20 battles in an evening and not get angry. 

Yeah well, a lot of people who used to love the game quit. (In my friendslist in the game about 80% of the players have quit.)

Yet, a lot of people who just started the game absolutely love it, despite the amount of stomps.

Maybe its just your time to find another game to play.

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

Something quiet clearly changed.

Yes, as said many times by now: The average player is getting worse every day.

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

And the fact that CCs are also talking about the huge number of steamrolls lately I think there is an issue.

Yep its an issue but at the same time its a paradox, as explained some time ago by Flambass (tldr: for the game to survive and thrive it has to be accessible, for the gameplay to become better the game has to become less accessible):

1 hour ago, Floofz said:

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence, congrats.

*sigh*.

Please tell me where exactly.

" No its not about winning or losing. Its about feeling your performance matters. If i know up front it doenst matter if i play good or not because mm will make sure i win 50% nonetheless, i dont feel like its worth playing. And so does everyone else, be it positive or negative. " --> If the results is predetermined by MM in the grand scheme of things, no matter what i do i will always end up with 50% winrate. How is that fun? Despite battles being close fought wins or defeats? Then it becomes some sort of simulator where everybody just tries to do random shenanigans because winrate doesnt exist anymore. Sorry, but that would kill the game for me. The fun i get out of the game is having the feeling my skill makes a difference.

1 hour ago, Execute0rder66 said:

Steamrolls or landslide wins/losses or whatever the proper name is, it always existed in WoWs. It existed when it came out in '15. later in '16', 17 and still exists. The difference according to my memory is, it used to be less. Now, I can't present you a number or percentage about how much less, but it was less to the degree one can notice. Then, assuming my own observation is true, what would cause the increase of steamrolls over the years? There are several reasons; one of them is the increase in average and peak player size. On contrary to this increase, many top/great/good players quit. Many new ship lines introduced over the years and casual players who do not regularly play and grind these lines usually have no idea how to play them which causes more incompetency in overall game player base. While there are new players, there are also old players who joined the game years ago but have only a couple of K battles in total and share the same incompetency with new players. Also, as noted it became much easier/quicker to grind to T10 ships than years ago. When we combine all these factors, it sort of explains the current steamroll games and their frequent occurrences and the MM indirectly.  

Exactly what I've been saying all along.

[TunaRoll]

Hello guys,

 

i would like to share something insightful from the german MM thread. A player found out, that the matchmaking in T7 (and prob in every mid tier) is completely broken and unfair because you get to play at least 75% of your games against players one or two tiers higher than yours. This could also be the reason why a lot of new players skip mid tiers (T5-T7) in its entirety because it feels unfair und annyoing to play as a lowtier ship "all the time". Therefore new players rush to higher tiers (T8-T10) with the help of XP-signals and premium time or by purchasing premium ships ($$$ to WG). Of course these players had nearly no time to learn this game and its mechanics. To be honest, i cannot blame them at all to rush like that. I testet T7 and T6 for a couple of days lately and its awful. T9 and T8 is pretty much every game your oponnent. Most of the time there are about 8x T8 and T9 and only about 4x T7 (or lower) ships in team. When you are on the loosing side, you have nearly zero impact or chance to change something for the better since you are "out-tiered". New players get pressured by the pretty much unfair working matchmaking system to rush up to the high tiers, which have a way better tier-spread, and after they arrived, they just suck completely and kill the game for the majority - because they had no time to learn the game in low and mid tiers as they should. Playing mid tiers nowadays is very frustrating.

 

Here are two tests to prove what im saying. In the german MM thread there are about 40+ pictures of every single round on page 437 and 438. You can check them out:

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/114961-matchmaking-in-der-kritik/?page=437

 

Test 1: 75% of all games you pay vs ships one or two tiers higher than yours: 40% T+2 , 35% T+1

 

 

Test 2:  75% of the games you play against ships one of two tiers higher than yours again: 40% vs T+2 , 35% T+1

 

 

 

This is an alarming and awful matchmaking. WG tries to push every player into T8,T9 and T10 for obvious ($$$) reasons. Either you buy signals and premium to progress faster or you need to buy premiums ships directly from the store. If you dont do that, you need weeks and months to grind thru those awful matches, which can and will be very frustrating and demotivating. WG needs to change that.

[novents]

Literally every person who ever asked for SBMM - it’s been the result of losses. Not one person has asked for SBMM when they’re top tier and get to farm broadsides of less capable players for a nice 200k dmg kraken/confed game which they post on their discords. Therefore what people want is better teammates (to carry them in one case, to survive long enough for them to carry in another case). What people don’t realise they’ll have instead - is better opponents. 

 

SBMM won’t remove roflstomps. Most roflstomps are a direct result of having players (on both sides) that are not comfortable playing at high tiers. Whether it’s a result of having “bought into” high tiers via premium shop. Or abundance of flags/camos/economy that allows significantly quicker grind than 2-3 years ago. 

 

Why is there far less roflstomps at T6? Because ships aren’t usually capable of punishing mistakes from 20km. And mid tiers are more forgiving. Why are there so many roflstomps in T10 where one team gets zero’d in 5mins? Because all it takes is 1-2 devstrikes early on, or for friendly DD to go on 10-line excursion on epicentre, etc etc. And the game collapses like a house of cards. 

 

The single biggest and most positive change WG could introduce is restrict players from buying a premium ship unless they have at least one (or more) tech tree ship of corresponding tier and type researched. Or after X battles in said tier.

- Want to buy a Kaga after 100 battles? - grind Lexi or Shokaku first and play 20 battles. 

- Want to buy Alaska when your highest played ship is Nassau? Tough luck - grind a T9 cruiser first so you’re not a liability to everyone. 

 

Same goes for early access mechanic when new tech tree lines get released. Someone with 5 battles in T3 and more money than sense can “simply” get themselves a Riga or Ostergotland by throwing some doubloons at the game. Then you see them - camoless, clanless, clueless, useless. Because 5 battles in T3 - big surprise - doesn’t prepare you for T9-T10 games. No wonder you see Asashios and Yueyangs torping DDs. And people wonder where roflstomps come from. 

 

But it’s money we’re talking about - and WG will never willingly restrict players from spending money. So just git gud and carry harder I suppose? Idk..

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, novents said:

The single biggest band most positive change WG could introduce is restrict players from buying a premium ship unless they have at least one (or more) tech tree ship of corresponding tier and type researched. Or after X battles in said tier.

 

Maybe, WG should extend that protected MM.

If you buy a premium, play with bots. Why does it matter for them? They cant contribute anyway. All they do, is drag their teammates down. Make protected MM filled with bots, rising for each tier, f.e.

max 200 games T1-T4 (like they currently changed)

300 games T5

400 games T6

500 games T7

700 games T8

900 games T9

1000 games T10

 

So lets say you have 400 games played, and you pick a T4 ship, you will play with humans. But if you play a T8 ship, you have protected MM with bots filling the game. WG already has different level of bots, so if you play hightiers, you could have strong bots.

[Captaindanz]

48 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Ah so now you agree that SBMM wouldnt work in this game, good. Also interesting how you do not care about winning or losing. Because everybody cares to some extend.

Yeah sure. So you just use it to confirm your team had "AlL tHe GoOd PlAyErS"?

 

I didnt state anything about any tech trees or  research speeds. Why do you twist my words?

I wrote:

"- huge skill disparity between players

- no respawn mechanic

- fast ttk

WoT has exactly the same issues that cause steamrolls, hence the game is plagued by steamrolls just like wows."

The longer these kind of games exist the worse the steamrolls are going to get. Its the format of the game and its lifecycle. You can trhow a tantrum on the forum about it but that will not change a thing sadly.

Yeah well, a lot of people who used to love the game quit. (In my friendslist in the game about 80% of the players have quit.)

Yet, a lot of people who just started the game absolutely love it, despite the amount of stomps.

Maybe its just your time to find another game to play.

Yes, as said many times by now: The average player is getting worse every day.

Yep its an issue but at the same time its a paradox, as explained some time ago by Flambass (tldr: for the game to survive and thrive it has to be accessible, for the gameplay to become better the game has to become less accessible):

*sigh*.

Please tell me where exactly.

" No its not about winning or losing. Its about feeling your performance matters. If i know up front it doenst matter if i play good or not because mm will make sure i win 50% nonetheless, i dont feel like its worth playing. And so does everyone else, be it positive or negative. " --> If the results is predetermined by MM in the grand scheme of things, no matter what i do i will always end up with 50% winrate. How is that fun? Despite battles being close fought wins or defeats? Then it becomes some sort of simulator where everybody just tries to do random shenanigans because winrate doesnt exist anymore. Sorry, but that would kill the game for me. The fun i get out of the game is having the feeling my skill makes a difference.

Exactly what I've been saying all along.

That's why people still think the stalingrad is op, they don't understand it can punish targets from 23 KM quite easily and the easiest way to counter it is just to use wasd hacks or not to give flat broadside to begin with.

I get that tbh, all those newbies starting to play this game might just get bored before they unlock t5-6 ships so WG might as well just take their money before they will stop playing this game, after those newbies will buy 2 premium ships and bunch of bundles they will become committed, now they will have to buy more doubloons and more credits.

[Darkeid]

Matchmaking imbalance/fail on the 2nd match of the day , this is getting disgusting, this is not playing a game , this is hoping the MM RNG will side on your favor , game skills have no effect on the outcome.

[gabberworld]

47 minutes ago, Darkeid said:

Matchmaking imbalance/fail on the 2nd match of the day , this is getting disgusting, this is not playing a game , this is hoping the MM RNG will side on your favor , game skills have no effect on the outcome.

well some people just don't want win, they solo drive and don't care about others. it's all in players hand, even if mm unbalanced and i hate that, if they make better balance it not makes players play better, basically if its more balanced then better players still need carry bad players

[gabberworld]

21 hours ago, GarrusBrutus said:

 

 

agree with Flambass

[Sea_w0lf]

1 hour ago, Darkeid said:

Matchmaking imbalance/fail on the 2nd match of the day , this is getting disgusting, this is not playing a game , this is hoping the MM RNG will side on your favor , game skills have no effect on the outcome.

 

2 battles today, winrate and battles in my team less than enemies (with big difference) and we won. I agree with @gabberworld ''it's all in players hand''

[gabberworld]

3 minutes ago, Sea_w0lf said:

2 battles today, winrate and battles in my team less than enemies (with big difference) and we won. I agree with @gabberworld ''it's all in players hand''

yes, i been too in this kind battles , enemy team have much higher winrate and we managed win

[AirSupremacy]

Players always rush to the highest tier in games,

nobody would hang out on level 22 in Diablo or WoW.

 

Its always about the last tier or level and the best gear in games.

 

In Random Mode one has to make up for 3-6 players, if one wants or can carry a match.

 

 

[DFens_666]

5 minutes ago, AirSupremacy said:

nobody would hang out on level 22 in Diablo or WoW. 

 

Except there is a difference between naturally progressing through a steadily growing difficulty level, and just jumpstarting into the highest difficult without a clue.

The equivalant would be, playing a character on the hardest difficulty, which is not able to cope with the enemies he faces.

[AirSupremacy]

Players find ways in their game title to progress fast and effectively.

If something can be loopholed or purchased to level fast,

the astute player will use any opportunity to progress.

 

Its nice when top gear comes broadside, to shell/torp or bomb it to bits.

Weekends there is lots of top gear stuff around to sink :D

[ObiWankov]

1 hour ago, Darkeid said:

Matchmaking imbalance/fail on the 2nd match of the day , this is getting disgusting, this is not playing a game , this is hoping the MM RNG will side on your favor , game skills have no effect on the outcome.

 

But its the enemy player’s skill that lets them have the higher stats in the first place, no?

 

19 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Except there is a difference between naturally progressing through a steadily growing difficulty level, and just jumpstarting into the highest difficult without a clue.

The equivalant would be, playing a character on the hardest difficulty, which is not able to cope with the enemies he faces.

 

as a long term veteran of diablo 2, playing it even to this day, I can tell you that people skipped all the acts but the end game. getting to late game with a lvl 1 and just leeching from there on out (leeching from high lvl team mates that is) ... would that be sbmm?

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, ObiWankov said:

as a long term veteran of diablo 2, playing it even to this day, I can tell you that people skipped all the acts but the end game. getting to late game with a lvl 1 and just leeching from there on out (leeching from high lvl team mates that is) ... would that be sbmm?

 

Having playing Diablo2 myself A LOT, there it didnt really matter if you had people leeching from you. Highlevel characters were perfectly capable in beating the enemies alone even with the buff they received for having more people in the game. In Offline mode, you could even buff the enemies to higher difficulty with a command.

Also i doubt, that new players would have done that to such an extent. For veterans it made sense, because they dont want to play normal/hard difficulty over and over.

 

Imagine going into a party in any MMORPG, and you start leeching from them. Happened in games i played, those people usually get kicked and killed. In WOWs, we have to live with those players, cant kick or teamkill them

[AirSupremacy]

I bought Diablo 2...6 times at launch day, to have more total storage chests.

All Diablo comments in this thread reflect hardcore players.

At work everybody was playing D2, it was amazing fun.

Maphack,Autoloot...

 

Thanks to D2, this title and many other games calculate important stuff on company servers.

 

Let noobs sail broadside in their high tier premiums, everyone wants to have fun :)

Everybody started as a noob in this or any other game title.

 

Happy WoWs !

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, AirSupremacy said:

Everybody started as a noob

No. Everyone start as novice, or newbie if you will. Noob refuses to learn, either from advice or his own mistakes.

[kraco]

nice game?? 

 

 

and after that superb matchmaking game is over for 7 minuts,

 

[Fatal_Ramses]

Nice MM tonight. Games are lasting 5-8 minutes, I guess I can play more these fun and enjoying games per night.

I'm starting to give serious thought to play T4 CVs and Kamikazes only.... you know, spread to enjoyment an fun to other tiers also.

[Eikkuu]

To be honest yes this MM is so hard. When you have bad people with you everytime and they do nothing it's boring...But when you alway have a T8 vs T10 battle is more anoying then anything in the game. l play 7 games today in a T8 and l has 6 T10 battles for 1 T7/9 with 5 defeats and 2 wins...That make me stop playing for today because l wanna keep my nerfs safe.... That just not logic to have +2/-2 tiers battles and sometime with a miracle we have a full T8 battle (same for another tier).

 

This can be a good MM about with tier battle l think :

 

Tier played	Tier minimum :	Tier maximum :
1	1	1
2	2	3
3	3	4
4	4	5
5	5	6
6	6	7
7	7	8
8	8	9
9	9	10
10	10	10

 

If the MM can't be apply, the actualy MM can be use (like no enough player for exemple). But still play with +1 or -1 maximum.

[Excavatus]

On 7/14/2020 at 11:39 PM, Az_Akagi said:

To be honest yes this MM is so hard. When you have bad people with you everytime and they do nothing it's boring...But when you alway have a T8 vs T10 battle is more anoying then anything in the game. l play 7 games today in a T8 and l has 6 T10 battles for 1 T7/9 with 5 defeats and 2 wins...That make me stop playing for today because l wanna keep my nerfs safe.... That just not logic to have +2/-2 tiers battles and sometime with a miracle we have a full T8 battle (same for another tier).

 

This can be a good MM about with tier battle l think :

 

Tier played	Tier minimum :	Tier maximum :
1	1	1
2	2	3
3	3	4
4	4	5
5	5	6
6	6	7
7	7	8
8	8	9
9	9	10
10	10	10

 

If the MM can't be apply, the actualy MM can be use (like no enough player for exemple). But still play with +1 or -1 maximum.

right now the most boring games in the game are single tier X games... 

followed by tier IX - X games.. 

 

+-1 tier will make the game boring even more. 

always remember this.. 

When you go in a battle as a bottom tier.. 

your initial job is not to fight against +2 tier ships.. 

Bottom tier, Mid tier, Top tier, they all have different approaches... 

Which makes game diverse If you ask me.. 

[gabberworld]

issue is not really in MM the +-2 but more like, ship advantages, captain skills, signals, modules, and yes the player own skills.

 

ship advantages, captain skills, signals, modules, not possible fix because queue would take forever.only what  they should todo in this game a little balance with players status.

 

also yes, in real world in war you really can't choose the enemy, so maybe we not need balance at all but just improve own skills

 

[Ruth_clifton]

y  green  and   reds  got  no  upgrades

[GarrusBrutus]

1 hour ago, gabberworld said:

so maybe we not need balance at all but just improve own skills