Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[Seepheerd]

Someone said: only idiots playing random anymore. I think it is not true. MM collects idiots and put them together :)

 

 

[Darkeid]

On 7/7/2020 at 8:27 AM, Excavatus said:

Show me any other online game with NO RESPAWN mechanic, and divided into 10 tiers and hundreds of different ships? 

That is the point you (not you in personal but people asking SBMM in general) refuse to see.. 

You cannot implement SBMM in this match system... 

Someone tried with another tank game, They've lost players faster than shooting stars.. They've tried to revert it into random.. but it was too late for them. 

They've come out the idea "WE HAVE THE SBMM YOU'VE BEEN ASKING FOR YEARS" people ran there.. 

then ran back.. 

 

Let me give you an example.. 

What are you gonna use as indicator.. like many people suggested.. WR? 

 

Here, my general WR: 

 

So where this MM supposed to put me in? 

 

you may suggest, the MM shoud look into not only global WR but also into Tier WR, Ship WR, Class WR.. 

Can't you see how long it would for MM to put together a match, especially at certain hours.. 

 

But regardless of these above.. 

I want to stress it out again.. 

you cannot put SBMM into a game without a respawn mechanic.. 

SBMM is founded on the idea of creating equal and fair teams.. 

The teams will be equal and fair, until you lose one ship... then equal and fair flies out the window.. 

poof.. gone.. SBMM will strengthen the snowball effect.. 

@Excavatus meanwhile , while we are discussing that nothing can be improved these matchups happen



The "work on your game only and dont pay attention to teams composition" argument wouldn't make any difference here ?

[DFens_666]

6 minutes ago, Darkeid said:

@Excavatus meanwhile , while we are discussing that nothing can be improved these matchups happen

 

So 1 out of 114 battles you played the last 7 days was worth mentioning?

And you almost only show, when MM is "against" you. That you get lucky matches with bad results are ofc not in your favour, i guess you carried them while not doing anything?

You have +52% WR last 21 days with mostly average/mediocre results - what else do you want really?? Incidently, if you look at your Hindenburg, you have a high WR while having good damage and high avg kills... cant be connected?

[ObiWankov]

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

Ah.

So if you were suddenly playing my little pony that would also fit your definition of random? 

statistically random not literally random

[Camperdown]

14 minutes ago, ObiWankov said:

statistically random not literally random

You are missing my point.

Random can mean a range of things. I prefer it not to mean completely random in this game (tools and unicums mixed) but playing against random adversaries of roughly comparable skill.

[spadadone]

Since Yesterday, while i'm playing fubuki (t6) , i'm constantly in t8 games full of Tallinn, or in games with 2 CVS per side, 1 T8 and the other One T6 or t8. 

Most of the games were likes 5 cruisers ( 3 or 4 tallinns), 3 BBS (T8) , 1 or 2 CVS and 1 or 2 dds.

 

Why i'm supposed to play only in T8 games? Does the pr mean something or is It completely random?

[Excavatus]

14 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

of roughly comparable skill.

That needs to be tampering with the MM pool.. 

which negates the definition of the RANDOM

 

 

This is a perfectly fine result for a RNG

 

 

All these outcomes have the same probability in a RNG 

 

Lets give another example.. where people really have hard time to grasp.. 

When you ask people, "When you toss a coin... what is the possibility of having 10 tails in a row.."

People say, should be miniscule.. practically impossible.. 

actually no.. , 

 

lets make it 3 tosses (to keep my sanity because I'm just gonna write it here) 

Possible results are, 

 

1) TTT

2) HHH

3) THH

4) TTH

5) THT

6) HHT

7) HTH

8) HTT

 

So basically, all these 8 outcomes have the same possiblity..

 

When it is 10 tosses (or 10 battles in a row), people say, (I've lost 10 battles in a row.. it should be impossible statistically)

 

and they believe, 

 

1) TTTTTTTTTT

2) HTTHTHHTTT

while the #1 should be statistically impossible, the #2 is perfectly fine :) 

even though they have the same possibility.. 

 

PS: Statistics is my hobby, I'm facinated by them :) 

A little off-topic funfact.. 

If there are 24 or more people in a room, go ahead and ask for someone to go in a bet with you, for "At least 2 people have the same birthday here"

When people think about.. wow.. 20 people roughly.. and 365 days.. yeah.. I'll win.. and they'll take the bet.. 

But in reality, having the same birthday possibility in a room full of people, hits %50 at 23 people :) 

you'll win more than you lose with 24 or above people.. in the long run I mean :) 

[Camperdown]

1 minute ago, Excavatus said:

That needs to be tampering with the MM pool.. 

which negates the definition of the RANDOM

 

 

This is a perfectly fine result for a RNG

 

 

All these outcomes have the same probability in a RNG 

 

Lets give another example.. where people really have hard time to grasp.. 

When you ask people, "When you toss a coin... what is the possibility of having 10 tails in a row.."

People say, should be miniscule.. practically impossible.. 

actually no.. , 

 

lets make it 3 tosses (to keep my sanity because I'm just gonna write it here) 

Possible results are, 

 

1) TTT

2) HHH

3) THH

4) TTH

5) THT

6) HHT

7) HTH

8) HTT

 

So basically, all these 8 outcomes have the same possiblity..

 

When it is 10 tosses (or 10 battles in a row), people say, (I've lost 10 battles in a row.. it should be impossible statistically)

 

and they believe, 

 

1) TTTTTTTTTT

2) HTTHTHHTTT

while the #1 should be statistically impossible, the #2 is perfectly fine :) 

Yeah, yeah, I know you are a great fan of the current mess, I will not go there again 

[Floofz]

To you people who are defending the MM and is religiously claiming its not rigged I have one question. Who do you think youre helping? Do you think all these people who are fed up with the MM and claims its rigged, or all the people who just quit playing because of the constant steamrolls, do you think these people will read your posts and go "hmm, I guess it is random, Ill go back to playing"? Really?

At this point it doesnt really matter if its rigged or not, random or not. Enough people are sick and tired of it, we have record low activity in our clan, theres talk about CCs leaving the game (Flambass in his latest youtube video). Now ofcourse its not all due to the MM but its part of it. Stick your head in the sand and pretend its not real all you want, it wont help you when theres noone left to play the game

[Excavatus]

1 minute ago, Camperdown said:

Yeah, yeah, I know you are a great fan of the current mess, I will not go there again 

Don't get me wrong.. I'm not for or against the current MM, I'm just a realist.. I accept this is the best we have right now.. and I haven't see any idea to make it better since I started to play WOT around 9 years ago... 

should MM be improved... yes continuously If you ask me.. 

But my experience tells me.. May be we reached to the top on MM improvements.. 

Because in wot, in the end.. the new MM changes (at that time) what made me quit the game for good.. 

I'm talking about that 3-5-7 MM.. 

 

I'm thinking this is the best MM we get (again not saying MM is great - but this is the best they can do) because almost %99 of the complaints in the MM topic or in this forum, are not caused by the MM but by the people in it. :) 

Trying to fix the MM is like, you have an 18wheeler driver in the seat of a fighter jet, and believing the problem is on the afterburners... 

[Taliesn]

5 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Yeah, yeah, I know you are a great fan of the current mess, I will not go there again 

 

He's also a fan of probability and maths, you see.

[gabberworld]

one guy tell that this game is easy, he can read book and play game at same time, we lost battle and he was last in list. in this kind situation there no way mm can resolve that issue. some people just want lose and they don't care

[Excavatus]

Just now, Taliesn said:

 

He's also a fan of probability and maths, you see.

aren't they fascinating though... 

There is nothing so real but so subjective and so unreal at the same time.. 

Statistics can be the biggest weapon for any kind of propaganda.. for the good or for the bad :) 

[ForlornSailor]

1 minute ago, Floofz said:

Who do you think youre helping? Do you think all these people who are fed up with the MM and claims its rigged, or all the people who just quit playing because of the constant steamrolls

 

Well, if the matchmaker will be rigged the way some people want it - you would be among the first to rage & quit the game. Since you would have the bad players constantly on your side, while fighting >50% ppl each and every battle, thus losing way more games when winning for a long period.

 

2 minutes ago, Floofz said:

At this point it doesnt really matter if its rigged or not, random or not. Enough people are sick and tired of it, we have record low activity in our clan , theres talk about CCs leaving the game (Flambass in his latest youtube video).

Might it be, that it has something to do with:

- WG ruining clanwars

- WG ruining clanwars again

- WG ruining operations

- Summer is finally here

- WG introdicing stupid SAP

- WG introducing the teamkiller no1 back in the game

- WG introducing subs

- CV rework

- WG ruining operations again

- WG ruining low tiers

- WG ruining mid tiers

- WG ruining AA

- WG introducing BBs with SAP

 

I think I missed some things.

[Taliesn]

2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Well, if the matchmaker will be rigged the way some people want it - you would be among the first to rage & quit the game. Since you would have the bad players constantly on your side, while fighting >50% ppl each and every battle, thus losing way more games when winning for a long period.

 

Might it be, that it has something to do with:

- WG ruining clanwars

- WG ruining clanwars again

- WG ruining operations

- Summer is finally here

- WG introdicing stupid SAP

- WG introducing the teamkiller no1 back in the game

- WG introducing subs

- CV rework

- WG ruining operations again

- WG ruining low tiers

- WG ruining mid tiers

- WG ruining AA

- WG introducing BBs with SAP

 

I think I missed some things.

 

Subs incoming

[Camperdown]

2 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

aren't they fascinating though... 

There is nothing so real but so subjective and so unreal at the same time.. 

Statistics can be the biggest weapon for any kind of propaganda.. for the good or for the bad :) 

I also like Kahneman's observation: people are really bad understanding chance and statistics.

[Excavatus]

3 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

I also like Kahneman's observation: people are really bad understanding chance and statistics.

I do not want to de-rail the thread.. but 
I have a book, "teaching using statistics to be a conman" 

 

basically it is based on human "understanding" of the chance and statistics 

[Floofz]

25 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Well, if the matchmaker will be rigged the way some people want it - you would be among the first to rage & quit the game. Since you would have the bad players constantly on your side, while fighting >50% ppl each and every battle, thus losing way more games when winning for a long period.

 

I dont care about actualy losing. Ive said it before, the top 3 players in the team could be rewarded as a defeat and the result not counted to a win or a defeat, thus not affecting the statistics.

There are things I care about with the current system and that is the fact that WR is somehow used as an E-peen, a measurement of skill and because so many battles nowadays are completely out of your control, it becomes increasingly frustrating when you lose since your stats are constantly going down the drain.

But the absolute biggest issue I have today with the matchmaking is the onesided matches. Half of our games yesterday we got slaughtered so hard that in most games me and my divisionmates were the only ones left alive against the entire enemy team, surrounded from all sides and shot up because all of our teammates just rushed in and died. THIS is the main reason I play maybe 5-10 random games a MONTH nowadays and farming most of my directives in operations and co-op. Yesterday divisioning didnt even help, we got slaughtered anyway no matter how hard we tried to carry.

There NEEDS to be a way to make random battles less frustrating for people who care about their performance. Farming Co-Op and operations gets boring very fast, especially since all operations are always the same tier and the same maps over and over again.

 

But if Im the only one in this thread who thinks this then I will be quiet and stop posting.

[Camperdown]

35 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

I do not want to de-rail the thread.. but 
I have a book, "teaching using statistics to be a conman" 

 

basically it is based on human "understanding" of the chance and statistics 

Ah, now everything falls into place 

[DFens_666]

34 minutes ago, Floofz said:

Yesterday divisioning didnt even help, we got slaughtered anyway no matter how hard we tried to carry. 

 

Didnt you recently claim, MM puts all the good players on one team?

I think the reality is more like, people became so absolutely bad in this game, that roflstomps are inevitable. Half of them are suiciders and the other half campers. One team has too many of either, they are screwed.

[Floofz]

5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Didnt you recently claim, MM puts all the good players on one team?

I think the reality is more like, people became so absolutely bad in this game, that roflstomps are inevitable. Half of them are suiciders and the other half campers. One team has too many of either, they are screwed.

 

Yes except for 2-3 players, as Ive always said. Those 2-3 players were us, in all of those games.

 

[ForlornSailor]

47 minutes ago, Floofz said:

But if Im the only one in this thread who thinks this then I will be quiet and stop posting.

 

By all means - dont let me or anyone else stop you. Im just saying, that what you wish for might not be something you actually like. I might ofc be wrong aswell. Anyway.

 

47 minutes ago, Floofz said:

But the absolute biggest issue I have today with the matchmaking is the onesided matches. Half of our games yesterday we got slaughtered so hard that in most games me and my divisionmates were the only ones left alive against the entire enemy team, surrounded from all sides and shot up because all of our teammates just rushed in and died. THIS is the main reason I play maybe 5-10 random games a MONTH nowadays and farming most of my directives in operations and co-op. Yesterday divisioning didnt even help, we got slaughtered anyway no matter how hard we tried to carry.

 

Then you still play more randoms then I do. Here is the problems, that I have and which I think, has an influence on the entire game: You can hardly play anything else then high tiers these days. Low tiers is ruined. Its the CVs and the stupi mm restrictions which creates totaly absurb games like 5x5 with 2 CVs 1 BB and 2 DDs. Even winning is not viable since you dont get damage, thus no XP and credits. And besides that, skill is multiplied to heavy in such an environment. Say a sealclubbing Hosho or a sealclubbing DD - theyll run the show alone. It drives people away from low tiers, doesnt matter if they grind or just want to play a low tier game to have some diversity (I used to be one of those).

 

But where do you go to? You cant play T7 really unless you like to shoot yourself in the foot either. T7 DDs are cucked thanks to no concealment module. Cruisers are heavily effed since the IFHE rework. BBs have overmatchable plating. And T7 sees T9 all the time. Why would you want to play that to have fun? Its out of the question aswell. So you have to go T8+. And thats whats everyone is doing. The freshest of the fresh players aswell. And you cant blame them? There is simply no fun to be had below T8. I betcha they feel good doing 30k with a Tirpitz because the option is doing 5k with a Kaiser while beeing constantly bombed and torped from Hoshos and Kamikaze-alikes. Or driving around in a Helena while seeing the T9 counter part has faster realod, more health, more pentration (on same caiber guns) and heal. Like come on.

 

WG has creates such hostile environments below T8, that new players and veterans alike will stay away from it. So now you have the high tiers, where everyone is gathering. People that have no idea how to play the basics and the hard core veterans. People with 10k games in all T10s and players, that used their credit card to grab any T9 at sale. So are we really wondering, why there are roflstomps? When half of your team has not understood the concept of concealment and the get proxy spotted in their Asashio from a BB and killed? I understand you want to prevent roflstomps from happening. I do aswell. But the basis isnt there. The current playerbase simply is too bad, there is the underlying problem.

[Beaker71]

3 games today - all in a tier 7 Euro DD i'm grinding, all bottom tier, all with lots of radar, and two with a CV.  Three loses.

 

Does this encourage me to play more games, knowing the MM might even out and i might be middle tier, or heaven forbid - top tier. Does it ****

 

It makes me stop playing the game.

[ForlornSailor]

10 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

3 games today - all in a tier 7 Euro DD i'm grinding, all bottom tier, all with lots of radar, and two with a CV.  Three loses. 

 

Yea, thats what I mentioned im my post above: grinding T7 DDs is insanity. And it got worse over the years (if someone wants to say, that it was always like that). The T7 DDs with good concealment are enough to make the regular T7 DDs utter trash. You are not suppose to grind them. Pull out your credit card, get some free XP and move on.

 

10 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

It makes me stop playing the game.

 

And thats the part where WGs greed fails, since we all can just walk away once we are pissed off enough.

[DFens_666]

21 minutes ago, Floofz said:

 

Yes except for 2-3 players, as Ive always said. Those 2-3 players were us, in all of those games.

 

 

So you say is, your group (arguably the best players in the game atleast most of the time) + the worst vs everything between you and the worst?

TBH, that sounds like skillbased MM to me. And thats whats happening in ranked sprint aswell IMO. Once i started checking, almost every time it was the same picture. The few games were it wasnt, were complete walkovers, and usually after horrible losing streaks...

one can but wonder, but i already think, MM is not random. Not sure if it ever was, maybe it was 3 years ago.