Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[gabberworld]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

Can someone explain to me one thing.

 

Why you play this game if you believe it is rigged AGAINST you?

 

because it makes sometimes so angry that i want take monitor and throw that to out window. so you feel that you still alive and not braindead.

 

i guess that why i still play this.

[Camperdown]

On 7/7/2020 at 7:27 AM, Excavatus said:

Show me any other online game with NO RESPAWN mechanic, and divided into 10 tiers and hundreds of different ships? 

That is the point you (not you in personal but people asking SBMM in general) refuse to see.. 

You cannot implement SBMM in this match system... 

Someone tried with another tank game, They've lost players faster than shooting stars.. They've tried to revert it into random.. but it was too late for them. 

They've come out the idea "WE HAVE THE SBMM YOU'VE BEEN ASKING FOR YEARS" people ran there.. 

then ran back.. 

 

Let me give you an example.. 

What are you gonna use as indicator.. like many people suggested.. WR? 

 

Here, my general WR: 

 

but here my WR for Helena : 

 

and my moskva : 

 

My Iowa : 

 

My Harugumo: 

 

M kremlin : 

 

My Musashi: 

 

And My bismarck : 

 

So where this MM supposed to put me in? 

 

you may suggest, the MM shoud look into not only global WR but also into Tier WR, Ship WR, Class WR.. 

Can't you see how long it would for MM to put together a match, especially at certain hours.. 

 

But regardless of these above.. 

I want to stress it out again.. 

you cannot put SBMM into a game without a respawn mechanic.. 

SBMM is founded on the idea of creating equal and fair teams.. 

The teams will be equal and fair, until you lose one ship... then equal and fair flies out the window.. 

poof.. gone.. SBMM will strengthen the snowball effect.. 

Hi,

 

Respectfully, I disagree about SBMM. You can introduce a system with 5 skill groups where MM will preferentially match you:

1: within your own skill group

2: with the adjoining skill group

3: if everything else fails and waiting times become to long, with any skill group and you simply have the same mess as we have now.

 

In cases 1 and 2 you would have much more satisfying games with people of comparable skill. I for one would applaud such a system.

[Camperdown]

5 hours ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Are you for real? Show me another online game? How about YOUR devs figure that out? What are they paid for? [edited]?

 

I had three games today: All complete roflstomps, all losses. Oh, how fun it is to have 3 [edited] as DDs while being bottom tier as an Odin. How fun is it to have a 800 PR [edited] Monarch spam you with HE and burn down your pathetic 52k hp so fast you can`t even use your heals? Thank you very much, I can see that you value my investment of 8k doubloons and that you value me as a customer.

On the other hand, no. I will never spend on this [edited] game ever again. And I am currently in contact with my bank to discuss chargeback due to fraud and false advertisement. Your company deserves this for Odin alone.

 

And yes, you are representative of WG. I don`t care what your official job title is. Customer service - upon my complaint - redirected me to this forum. And you are a mod on this forum. Do the math. For me, as a customer, it doesn`t matter if WG pays you or not.

You even banned my second account (after temp banning this acc). How are you not with them?

 

 

You guys at WG are [edited] and deserve to go bankrupt.

 

 

Imo Excavatus is one of the most reasonable and decent moderators I know. I do not appreciate your attitude towards him. Please cool down and act like you are addressing a fellow human being.

[Excavatus]

1 hour ago, Sir_Grzegorz said:

Can someone explain to me one thing.

 

Why you play this game if you believe it is rigged AGAINST you?

That is the question I've asked so many times here and still waiting for an answer :) 

27 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Hi,

 

Respectfully, I disagree about SBMM. You can introduce a system with 5 skill groups where MM will preferentially match you:

1: within your own skill group

2: with the adjoining skill group

3: if everything else fails and waiting times become to long, with any skill group and you simply have the same mess as we have now.

 

In cases 1 and 2 you would have much more satisfying games with people of comparable skill. I for one would applaud such a system.

you've quoted me but you didn't answer my main question. If you did, I didn't understand then.. 

Where should the SBMM put me.. I play horribly in my moskva.. but very very good in harugumo.. 

I'm generally above average but in someships I'm very good.. in some I'm extremely bad.. 

What should SBMM do with me? 

19 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

Imo Excavatus is one of the most reasonable and decent moderators I know. I do not appreciate your attitude towards him. Please cool down and act like you are addressing a fellow human being.

Thanks for the kind words mate.. 

 

[Camperdown]

2 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

That is the question I've asked so many times here and still waiting for an answer :) 

you've quoted me but you didn't answer my main question. If you did, I didn't understand then.. 

Where should the SBMM put me.. I play horribly in my moskva.. but very very good in harugumo.. 

I'm generally above average but in someships I'm very good.. in some I'm extremely bad.. 

What should SBMM do with me?

 

Fair point: I guess you would have a tougher time in the ships you suck in. My instinct is however that your general skill level would be well matched to your teammates and opponents. I assume that on average you would do well but would struggle in some ships. However, I would prefer that to avoid the clueless behaviour I now have to put up with in about 50% of my games.

I absolutely suck in CVs, haven't played them since the rework. If I would ever try them again in SBMM I would have a very tough time. Probably play coop to practice and after that stay in T4 for as long as it takes.

[Excavatus]

1 minute ago, Camperdown said:

I would prefer that to avoid the clueless behaviour I now have to put up with in about 50% of my games

Yeah the thing is, 

When we (me and others who think like me) oppose the SBMM thinks we like to have extremely bad players on our teams :) 

no we don't.. but with the unique setup of this game.. we see nothing better is possible with the MM. 

The only way is to educate the players.. and we know the possibility of this :) sadly.. 

 

and another point.. whatever you program your SBMM to do, 

you cannot disregard the fundamental fault it has been built on.. 

we know good / very good players are a minority... 

these guys will always be teamed up with worse and worse players.. 

Basically.. 

when there are 4 guys in the queue with the following WRs.. 
%50, %40, %55, %65.. 

%65 WR guy will ALWAYS be teamed up with the %40 guy.. there won't be any exception.. Until his WR drops.. 

This is in my book, punishing that guy because he is good.. 

[DFens_666]

19 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Where should the SBMM put me.. I play horribly in my moskva.. but very very good in harugumo.. 

I'm generally above average but in someships I'm very good.. in some I'm extremely bad.. 

What should SBMM do with me? 

 

9 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

My instinct is however that your general skill level would be well matched to your teammates and opponents

 

Had a guy in ranked sprint, who played absolutely horrible, basicly just died doing anything. So i checked his stats, and a big fat 65% bumped into my face. I was like "wtf, what is that supposed to be". Then i scrolled down, and it was clear what happened:

80% of his games in T1 ships with ~75+% WR. The moment he leaves T1, he is useless.

 

We all know, that he is not a good player. But then you would need the MM to understand that aswell. And this is a fairly easy case to identify. What do you do with people, who have 60-70% WR playing certain OP sealclubber ships (Orion, Nikolai, Hosho, Gremy, Kamikaze, GC....) but once they play hightiers, they drop below 50%?

The variety is just too great to put people into a certain category. So the only real option would be, to educate people, but as Excavatus pointed out, we all know how likely thats gonna be - from both points: WG educating them, and them being willing to learn.

[Camperdown]

6 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Yeah the thing is, 

When we (me and others who think like me) oppose the SBMM thinks we like to have extremely bad players on our teams :) 

no we don't.. but with the unique setup of this game.. we see nothing better is possible with the MM. 

The only way is to educate the players.. and we know the possibility of this :) sadly.. 

 

and another point.. whatever you program your SBMM to do, 

you cannot disregard the fundamental fault it has been built on.. 

we know good / very good players are a minority... 

these guys will always be teamed up with worse and worse players.. 

Basically.. 

when there are 4 guys in the queue with the following WRs.. 
%50, %40, %55, %65.. 

%65 WR guy will ALWAYS be teamed up with the %40 guy.. there won't be any exception.. Until his WR drops.. 

This is in my book, punishing that guy because he is good.. 

OK, I think you have a different picture of SBMM than I have.

I would not propose it without further changes. I would propose 5 skill classes, with 20% of players in each class. In the top group, experts, you would find the best players. They will preferably be matched within their own skill class, or if needed also with the adjoining group.

If you play well enough in your class, you get to the top of this group and get promoted to the next group. In this way, you are most of the time matched to players of comparable skill. The noobs and tools stay in the bottom group, and the game is more fun for everyone.

I know this system from a car racing game, Gran Turismo (GT Sport). Works as a charm there.

[Excavatus]

2 minutes ago, Camperdown said:

I would not propose it without further changes. I would propose 5 skill classes, with 20% of players in each class

Great idea.. but now we are facing another problem :) 

This game does not have enough people even in peak hours to fullfil that league system.. 

 

because we have tiers.. which means, there won't be 5 classes but will be (lets take it over tier 4) 35 classes.. 

How long people can wait before getting bored? 

They even removed the odd tier CVs because of the low player numbers.. 

Because people were waiting in the queue for minutes.. especially in the odd hours.. 

 

Yes, league system can be an answer, but you need more online players for that.. much much more.. 

at least 10 times more than a regular game because of the tiers and classes we have.. 

 

 

[Camperdown]

5 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

Had a guy in ranked sprint, who played absolutely horrible, basicly just died doing anything. So i checked his stats, and a big fat 65% bumped into my face. I was like "wtf, what is that supposed to be". Then i scrolled down, and it was clear what happened:

80% of his games in T1 ships with ~75+% WR. The moment he leaves T1, he is useless.

 

We all know, that he is not a good player. But then you would need the MM to understand that aswell. And this is a fairly easy case to identify. What do you do with people, who have 60-70% WR playing certain OP sealclubber ships (Orion, Nikolai, Hosho, Gremy, Kamikaze, GC....) but once they play hightiers, they drop below 50%?

The variety is just too great to put people into a certain category. So the only real option would be, to educate people, but as Excavatus pointed out, we all know how likely thats gonna be - from both points: WG educating them, and them being willing to learn.

Yep, I see this could be a problem. Would this not be the exception, though, rather than the rule? 

In addition, if this guy plays out of his comfort zone, his rating will plunge, and he will drop down a class. If he does play his favourite thing, he will be good enough. Good luck to him btw being matched with expert T1s 

I guess it would take some hard thinking to get this system right. But I would really like to be rid of the clueless  that don't want to learn and git gud.

[Camperdown]

11 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Great idea.. but now we are facing another problem :) 

This game does not have enough people even in peak hours to fullfil that league system.. 

 

because we have tiers.. which means, there won't be 5 classes but will be (lets take it over tier 4) 35 classes.. 

How long people can wait before getting bored? 

They even removed the odd tier CVs because of the low player numbers.. 

Because people were waiting in the queue for minutes.. especially in the odd hours.. 

 

Yes, league system can be an answer, but you need more online players for that.. much much more.. 

at least 10 times more than a regular game because of the tiers and classes we have.. 

 

 

Not really.

As I said earlier, there would not be hard matching within your league. It would be:

1: within your group in peak times

2: with the next group if there are not enough players

3: up to completely mixed if there are very few players.

In this way, in busy times you can have much better matched teams, while in low hours you have the current mess at worst.

 

Edit:

One of the most lamented things in WoWs is the roflstomps, the clueless players and the lack of team play. I think this system would vastly improve the game experience. I think many players would think a limited increase in waiting time would be well worth it.

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 2 Stunden, Allied_Winter sagte:

One post had to be edited. When you're disagreeing with either WG or one another, do so without using insults.

Did you just honestly give me a strike?

 

Ok, that`s one strike for WG on the way to chargeback.

You can give me strikes? I can do the same.

For me it will have zero consequences, I will get every single cent I spent on this game.

 

Welcome to the real world, where you can`t treat paying customers like dirt.

 

You honestly think that you can give me games like the one in the screenshot (just now) and then expect me to remain polite?

Why do I need to show respect to people who show no respect to me and my time? Please explain (of course, you won`t).

 

Your customer service redirected me to this fourm. But nobody here apparently works for WG or gives a darn about customers.

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 1 Stunde, Camperdown sagte:

Imo Excavatus is one of the most reasonable and decent moderators I know. I do not appreciate your attitude towards him. Please cool down and act like you are addressing a fellow human being.

I am not addressing him as a human being on this forum, but as a representative of the company he certainly works for.

And yes, it is work even if he isn`t paid in money.

 

Today, I`ve spent 2 hours losing and getting stomped. In a ship I paid 8000 doubloons for.

Being polite is the last thing I care about at the moment.

[Camperdown]

4 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

I am not addressing him as a human being on this forum, but as a representative of the company he certainly works for.

And yes, it is work even if he isn`t paid in money.

 

Today, I`ve spent 2 hours losing and getting stomped. In a ship I paid 8000 doubloons for.

Being polite is the last thing I care about at the moment.

So your frustration because of a game you play gives you justification to treat someone as dirt who has no responsibility for your predicament?

[ForlornSailor]

6 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

I am not addressing him as a human being on this forum, but as a representative of the company he certainly works for.

 

A representative of a company is not a human beeing?

 

Anyway. You should realize, that he has no influence in any way on the topic at hand here. As in he couldnt possibly change the matchmaker. His work evolved around the forum and the messages posted here.

23 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Why do I need to show respect to people who show no respect to me and my time? Please explain (of course, you won`t).

 

As above: the guys you are interacting with here, are not responsible in any way for what is happening ingame.

 

10 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Today, I`ve spent 2 hours losing and getting stomped. In a ship I paid 8000 doubloons for.

 

Honestly: you are a decent player. You reach almost the maximum in random battles what is possible as a solo player (unless you belong to the Top 0,x %, then you can squeez our a handful more wins out of 100 games - even that doesnt make a big difference, as should be obvious). So you either need to start playing in 3x divisions with other players of your skill range - then you can bump it up to 70 to 80 wins out of 100 games - or you need to accept how the game is. The third option is to walk away, if you cant take it. And im not talking down down to you or something like that - Ive been at that same point, looking at those 3 options. There really are no more then those, ive turned the coin over and over myself, looking for another side to it.

[ColonelPete]

30 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Did you just honestly give me a strike?

 

Ok, that`s one strike for WG on the way to chargeback.

You can give me strikes? I can do the same.

For me it will have zero consequences, I will get every single cent I spent on this game.

Doubtful, unless you spend the money only recently.

Chargeback has a time limit.

31 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

You honestly think that you can give me games like the one in the screenshot (just now) and then expect me to remain polite?

Why do I need to show respect to people who show no respect to me and my time? Please explain (of course, you won`t).

You did not get a guarantee to win every match.

Did you never learn that losing is an option?

20 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Today, I`ve spent 2 hours losing and getting stomped. In a ship I paid 8000 doubloons for.

Being polite is the last thing I care about at the moment.

You did not buy wins.

And that Odin is not the easiest ship in the world is not exactly a secret. The forum is full of feedback about her.

[Tanatoy]

 

2 hours ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

I am not addressing him as a human being on this forum, but as a representative of the company he certainly works for.

 And yes, it is work even if he isn`t paid in money.

 

Today, I`ve spent 2 hours losing and getting stomped. In a ship I paid 8000 doubloons for.

Being polite is the last thing I care about at the moment.

Hi to you,

 

I hope you'll admit that you can be a representative of a company and still a human being. :) As I'm pretty sure I'm both. And politeness is just a normal way of acting between people, even if we are separated by many kilometers apart. 

 

Supporting our game by spending real money for premium ships or a premium account doesn't mean you'll get better in terms of win ratio in game. It means that you'll progress in tiers faster. 

 

Stomps, can be perceived as an annoying phenomenon, we understand it. The matchmaker however has a really few part in it. What can the matchmaker do, or even us, what can we do against a team which have decided not to push a certain cap or not defend ? Not much I believe. And I do also personnaly believe that the best way to promote good gameplay in game is by education on the core mechanics, things that we do through our "How it works videos" for exemple. 

[Sea_w0lf]

On 7/6/2020 at 9:31 PM, ForlornSailor said:

There was a really nice suggestion in the other topic, where @loppantorkel and @Hanse77SWE came up with a "casual-competetive" mode as an permanent addition to the existing gamemodes. This has the potential to ease many problems we currently see in the randoms. And it would solve problems for both ends of the playerbase. Imo - we as a community should push for this solution, as it offers something for everyone without having any downsides (or I fail to see one).

 

I'm looking up for this topic, really would be nice a casual mode and the problem hopefully will be solved.

 

 

 

[Floofz]

39 minutes ago, Tanatoy said:

 

Hi to you,

 

I hope you'll admit that you can be a representative of a company and still a human being. :) As I'm pretty sure I'm both. And politeness is just a normal way of acting between people, even if we are separated by many kilometers apart. 

 

Supporting our game by spending real money for premium ships or a premium account doesn't mean you'll get better in terms of win ratio in game. It means that you'll progress in tiers faster. 

 

Stomps, can be perceived as an annoying phenomenon, we understand it. The matchmaker however has a really few part in it. What can the matchmaker do, or even us, what can we do against a team which have decided not to push a certain cap or not defend ? Not much I believe. And I do also personnaly believe that the best way to prevent good gameplay in game is by education on the core mechanics, things that we do through our "How it works videos" for exemple. 

 

Yet your game/games (because its the same in tanks) are the only teambased pvp games Ive ever played where stomps are the norm. Stomps happen in other games too, but in this game its almost all battles and its becoming worse and worse every day. This wasnt the case a year ago, or even 6 months ago. This has accelerated over the past few months and the same thing happend in tanks around 2 years ago or so. The statistical probability that almost all 55%+ players except for 2 or 3 ends up in the same team against a team where most players are 45-48% with 2 or 3 55%s game after game after game day after day after day, week after week after week is equal to zero. There simply is no chance that its random, its a pattern and anyone regularly playing with a WR meter will see that because the setups are always the same. So quiet clearly you know more about this than you tell us, maybe you dont but the company you work for sure does

 

 

Theres so many things coupled to this. The increasing number of time gated content with the ability to boost progress with money. The frequent spewing of tier 8-9 premium ships that are usually just a copy paste version of something that already exists. The research bureu which once again is just a way for you to get away with selling tier 10 ships for a copious amounts of money to whales and by adding "unique upgrades" to this youre essentially forcing all players to take part in this.

Then theres less obvious things youve recently implemented that most of the playerbase are too blind or gullible to see. The fact that you can now make your ship look like a xmas tree full of flags by being able to more or less add ALL the flags at the same time. Sounds good and dandy right? Until you realize that combat flags are now more or less impossible to get outside of your event casinos that come out every time a new line releases. 19/20 daily flagcontainers will ONLY give you economic flags. And now youre also releasing two new flags that on many ships will be entirely mandatory.

 

These are all things that makes Wargaming as a company lose all manner of credibility to players with a brain (and theres much more). And that takes a lot for me to say, because Ive played Wargaming games since WoT came out many years ago and Ive always defended you, even in such events as the Chrysler K debacle. But Ive had about enough of this. You have shown time and time again over the past few months that you are NOT in the slightest interested in making or maintaining a good, enjoyable game, youre only interested in peoples money and you will walk over your customers dead bodies in order to get that.

It is such a shame, you had such a great game going which is why Ive stuck around for so long despite all of this. But you have no desire to fix it, actualy, you dont even think theres a problem. But Ive written it before, the vocal people are the ones that stay, and hope for change, like me. The most disatisfied people will simply quit playing, and boy have we seen people quit.

But go on, keep doing what youre doing and eventually noone will be left for you to milk. Or fix your game, fix the MM, stop the predatory sales tactics, fix your customer support to be actualy human and this game will go on for many years to come.

[159Hunter]

8 hours ago, Tanatoy said:

And I do also personnaly believe that the best way to promote good gameplay in game is by education on the core mechanics, things that we do through our "How it works videos" for exemple. 

I agree with the education point, however the way WG does it is wrong.

It needs to be in game, not a video on another website, an article on a website...

 

WG always claims that the vocal players on discord and the forums are only a small minority. And WG is correct. But those players invest time, they look beyond the port and battle screens. People who don't will easily miss these videos. Or worse, they won't see the point in watching them.

 

They also remain a theoretical lecture. And everyone who knows a thing or two about education will tell you that practice makes perfect. Something videos don't offer at all.

 

Every other game I played had a basic tutorial, yet WG stubbornly refuses to implement one here. Leading to the player quality we have today. This begs the question if it's intentional...

[ObiWankov]

Matchmaking is fine. Go play clan battles if you want something thats close to skill based. And about the T9 premium ships in the hands of a new player... I find those games I have them on my team to be more interesting, as it won’t be  12-0 in 5 minutes, gives you something to fight against. But then again I haven’t played solo seriously in years and would not recommend anyone to do so (as long as your div wins more than 50% on average I guess).

 

On a side note I very much appreciated to be able to buy high tier ships and even flags  for money, thank you WG. Some people don’t have the time required to get all the things by only playing...

[Camperdown]

5 hours ago, ObiWankov said:

Matchmaking is fine. Go play clan battles if you want something thats close to skill based. And about the T9 premium ships in the hands of a new player... I find those games I have them on my team to be more interesting, as it won’t be  12-0 in 5 minutes, gives you something to fight against. But then again I haven’t played solo seriously in years and would not recommend anyone to do so (as long as your div wins more than 50% on average I guess).

 

On a side note I very much appreciated to be able to buy high tier ships and even flags  for money, thank you WG. Some people don’t have the time required to get all the things by only playing...

Your playing div's only directly contradicts that MM is fine.

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

Your playing div's only directly contradicts that MM is fine.

And playing mostly solo supports that it is fine? Most matches are played solo in this game.

[ObiWankov]

1 hour ago, Camperdown said:

Your playing div's only directly contradicts that MM is fine.

The mode is called random, so expect a random outcome when you join a battle all by yourself. Definition of working as intended imo.

[Camperdown]

10 minutes ago, ObiWankov said:

The mode is called random, so expect a random outcome when you join a battle all by yourself. Definition of working as intended imo.

Ah.

So if you were suddenly playing my little pony that would also fit your definition of random?