Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Tier IV MM at 11 in the evening in a cruiser: 2.33 min waiting time with 11 to 16 carriers in que ending up in a 9 vs. 9... 

[Besserwisser3000]

Am 30.6.2020 um 01:15, DFens_666 sagte:

 

If you arent happy with 60% Solo WR, i guess you need to play in 3x divisions...

 

Did my GK stats look like I have 60% WR in it?

 

And it`s not just the GK. FdG was the same.

Even the Lightning. Unicum stats in every other RN DD, but Lightning? Nope, not gonna win. What`s the chance?

 

Why can`t I win in certain ships?

 

Do you have an answer?

 

 

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Why can`t I win in certain ships?

 

Low sample size, bad luck, cant play those ships properly?

Lightning could be slightly bad luck (or influenced by the T8 CV hordes?), german BBs might not be for you, since you have bad WR in all of them starting at Bismarck. Your survivability in german BBs is at the lower end (Bismarck/Bayern/FDG are 3 of the worst 4), so you probably die too early too often an when you are dead you dont have any influence anymore. With GK you survive more and have better WR compared to those.

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 2 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

 

Low sample size, bad luck, cant play those ships properly?

Lightning could be slightly bad luck (or influenced by the T8 CV hordes?), german BBs might not be for you, since you have bad WR in all of them starting at Bismarck. Your survivability in german BBs is at the lower end (Bismarck/Bayern/FDG are 3 of the worst 4), so you probably die too early too often an when you are dead you dont have any influence anymore. With GK you survive more and have better WR compared to those.

Can play Jervis, can play Jutland, can play Daring, can`t play Lightning. Sure, seems reasonable.

 

Care to elaborate where I have bad stats in Bismarck, FdG or GK, except for win rate? They may not be the best, but quite reasonable.

 

I am aware that my Gneisenau has much better stats, and I played Bismarck tilted quite a few times.

There is still no reason as to why my win rate should be so terrible.

And my GK is following suit. I will soon hit 50% and then 45%.

 

Getting killed explains nothing. Many of my games were roflstomps where I tried to win them, which can only be done by risking your ship if your team is a bunch of xxx.

All my ships have damage, kills, etc. way above the average of the 50% best players. Yet the WR is way below. Over 60+ battles.

(even my Gneisenau WR is lagging behind 5% best players` averages, while all the other stats are above that. But I won`t complain as long as I have 55%+)

 

Why?

[ColonelPete]

5 hours ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

 

Did my GK stats look like I have 60% WR in it?

 

And it`s not just the GK. FdG was the same.

Even the Lightning. Unicum stats in every other RN DD, but Lightning? Nope, not gonna win. What`s the chance?

 

Why can`t I win in certain ships?

 

Do you have an answer?

 

 

• GK 81 matches
• FDG 66 matches, and she is weak stock
• Lightning 93 matches

Low battle number and it looks like you are not doing well with german BB in general. They probably do not fit your style of playing.

[Taliesn]

19 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

 

All my ships have damage, kills, etc. way above the average of the 50% best players. Yet the WR is way below. Over 60+ battles.

(even my Gneisenau WR is lagging behind 5% best players` averages, while all the other stats are above that. But I won`t complain as long as I have 55%+)

 

Why?

 

That's still a small sample size, not really need to look much farther. Take Bismark; if you'd have won just 3 more battles out of those 80 you'd have a nice enough 50% WR.

[DFens_666]

12 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Can play Jervis, can play Jutland, can play Daring, can`t play Lightning. Sure, seems reasonable.

 

I specifically wrote bad luck + potential more CVs at lightning, but you ignored those and focused on not being able to play it (which i didnt claim).

T8 sees CVs all the time, T7-9 see much less of them, giving DDs more power at influencing the game. Its not a secret, that DDs have to play differently when a CV is in the game.

If you would win the next 7 lightning games to 100, you would have 56% WR. And the small smaple size works both ways ofc. Daring has only 7 games, Jervis 26. Lightning has the most games played, which also means, luck is less of a factor than with the others. Also with Lightning it seems, you have less damage (proportionally) and less avg kills than with the T7 and 9.

 

16 minutes ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

Care to elaborate where I have bad stats in Bismarck, FdG or GK, except for win rate? They may not be the best, but quite reasonable.

Getting killed explains nothing.

 

As i said, you might die too early? Im just guessing here, since i dont know how you play them. But with other BBs you have better survivability and better WR aswell, so it makes sense to me, that this might a the problem.

And getting killed explains everything, if you are dead, you cant influence the game any longer.

Or compare Gneisenau with the others: Much more avg kills, that could also be one thing. You simply take out more enemies with that ship,

 

Also i dont know which build you are running, secondary build didnt work for me either with hightier german BBs, GK with tankbuild was much more comfortable to me.

[ForlornSailor]

your case @Besserwisser3000 is turning more and more into a "how to play / how to read statistics" topic and I agree with everyone replying to you in that sense. So how do you think, this is matchmaker related? The onlything im reading is "some ships get worse matchmaking then others" now we´d need you to elaborate on this. is it because of tiers, class or simply the ship itself? because all of those can be disproved with global stats I guess.

[Darkeid]

1st match of the day: roflstomp



2nd match of the day: roflstomp



3rd match in a row: worst roflstomp in days only 2 enemies sunk



4th match: should i celebrate for being on the other side of the roflstomp?

 

5th match in a row: EZ clapd 6 enemies downed 

The 6th match is the first reasonable? statwise mm
 

[Besserwisser3000]

Vor 4 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

 

I specifically wrote bad luck + potential more CVs at lightning, but you ignored those and focused on not being able to play it (which i didnt claim).

T8 sees CVs all the time, T7-9 see much less of them, giving DDs more power at influencing the game. Its not a secret, that DDs have to play differently when a CV is in the game.

If you would win the next 7 lightning games to 100, you would have 56% WR. And the small smaple size works both ways ofc. Daring has only 7 games, Jervis 26. Lightning has the most games played, which also means, luck is less of a factor than with the others. Also with Lightning it seems, you have less damage (proportionally) and less avg kills than with the T7 and 9.

 

It wasn't the CV. I see them all the time in the Jervis, Daring, Z-23, Z-46, etc.

I got so tilted, that I sold and later rebought it, just to sell it again after a 13 game binge, which saw my win, avg. dmg and kills suffer quite heavily.

 

Vor 4 Stunden, DFens_666 sagte:

As i said, you might die too early? Im just guessing here, since i dont know how you play them. But with other BBs you have better survivability and better WR aswell, so it makes sense to me, that this might a the problem.

And getting killed explains everything, if you are dead, you cant influence the game any longer.

Or compare Gneisenau with the others: Much more avg kills, that could also be one thing. You simply take out more enemies with that ship,

 

Also i dont know which build you are running, secondary build didnt work for me either with hightier german BBs, GK with tankbuild was much more comfortable to me.

 

Well, how do my games in Bismarck and FdG (and recently GK) go down: 

My team evaporates. Even if I push with my DD, he will often just die like an idiot. 

 

I don't yolo, but I play to win. If that means I'll have to sacrifice my ship, I'll do it.

I don't think that I lose because I die. I feel like I die while trying to turn a lost game, albeit in vain.

 

In my Bismarck, about half the kills are DDs. 

 

 

I just see a repeat of the total crap show that was my Hindenburg. It took me north of 200 games to get Hindenburg above 50% win. After 100, I had 35%. 

How is that fun?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GarrusBrutus]

@Darkeid

 

What is your point? 

You do a below average amount of dmg in a TX CA and you expect to win more? 

Or you expect to have less stompy games? 

As well as your screens, what is the point? First of all, MMM is a useless tool and a self fulfilling prophecy. Most players use it to blame someone else for their own mistakes under the pretext that they use it to see who is dangerous on the enemy team. Second, (let's assume for a second it is a reliable and useful tool) the difference between the teams isn't that great to explain the stomps. 

 

Just stop using that ***** program and focus on your own gameplay. 

[DFens_666]

11 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Most players use it to blame someone else for their own mistakes under the pretext that they use it to see who is dangerous on the enemy team.

 

Reminds me of the asian reroll hurricane div yesterday, who immediately started attacking me (CV + rangemod spoter Zao shooting from 21km). After i had no option than to run to my teammates, they started to focus on another good player in a shikishima on the other side of the map... neither me or the shiki died.

Probably not the best idea to focus good players. Most of the time, good players lose because their teammates suicide too fast, not because they die too early

 

2 hours ago, Besserwisser3000 said:

My team evaporates. Even if I push with my DD, he will often just die like an idiot. 

 

So you claim you have worse teammates when playing german BBs? Sound kinda weird, even to me.

Either you are confident enough that you know what you are doing and keep on doing it and hope something changes, or you look at your performance and see if there is a problem or not. As i said, german BBs can be played 2 ways: Tank or Secondary. 99% Tankbuild has more game influence than the other, and secondary needs even more skill to have an impact, that might be a point which you havent answered.

[Darkeid]

Tried to play again just now,

1st match: Team evaporated , for the first time in about 10 days i saw people with less than 40% and one team had 2 of them. FFS 44% vs 60% . Ofc TTT is a top tier clan and will most likely win any game , the problem of the MM engine is that it disregards player stats causing unfair imbalances in teams. Yes it was another roflstomp that could have been predicted by a rng generator without wasting the time to play. 


 



Why isnt WG responding to this ???

[ForlornSailor]

31 minutes ago, Darkeid said:

Why isnt WG responding to this ??? 

 

Again - whats the point here? All your screen contain a 3x super unicum divi on the other team. do you complain when you have such a division on your team? Nah, you are happy they carry you right?

[DFens_666]

24 minutes ago, Darkeid said:

Why isnt WG responding to this ???

 

To some degree, you are causing that imbalance yourself when playing division. I cant be sure since it wont show the divisions in your MM screens, but there are atleast 2 divisions in the 2nd screenshot:

You and your partner, and on the enemy team the ENUF div. No matter what you change, those 5 people will ALWAYS be in seperate teams (2 vs 3) UNLESS there are more divs for the MM. But if there are only 2 divs, then they are guaranteed to be in seperate teams.
Same in the last screenshot with the TTT div. There are only 2 TX DDs in the game, both are in a division, so the divisions WILL be in seperate teams. Only the A div from your side could have been swapped with the Stalingrad and Wooster from the enemies atleast in theory.

The same can probably be applied to game number 3, with your div vs the WIDMO div.

[zekai7498]

The MM system should consider player ranks too,this game is not about ship superiority.It is about player superiority.I have lost many many well played games due to this imbalance.Trust me it is really frustrating.Im about to quit this game after years...

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, zekai7498 said:

The MM system should consider player ranks too,this game is not about ship superiority.It is about player superiority.I have lost many many well played games due to this imbalance.Trust me it is really frustrating.Im about to quit this game after years...

So the MM gives me better teammates since I do not have a rank? Great! 

[zekai7498]

15 dakika önce, ColonelPete dedi:

So the MM gives me better teammates since I do not have a rank? Great! 

You are more experienced,you know how it feels when you carry your flank and realise half of your team already gone in 5 minutes.What i say is,if MM picks more even ones among players,loss does not hurt players.Other way,whatever a good player does,does not matter,it will get ruined by low rated ones.

For MM,there must be something to equalise player quality beside radar,tier etc...

 

[ColonelPete]

It is not rank...

 

[Excavatus]

15 hours ago, Darkeid said:

Ofc TTT is a top tier clan and will most likely win any game , the problem of the MM engine is that it disregards player stats causing unfair imbalances in teams.

so let me ask to understand better.. 

When those 3 guys are in the enemy team... you want game to put more "BAD" players on their team, and more "GOOD" players on your team, 

and you call this balanced? fair? 

fair for whom? 

why those guys have to carry every team just because they are good players? 

Why do they have to get always bad players on their team? how fair it is for them? 

[DasTongle]

16 hours ago, Darkeid said:

Why isnt WG responding to this ???

How many games did you have where this was exactly the other way arround... This happens from time to time, and from experience this is one of 25 Games that was easier to carry. But if the TOP Player in EXPERIENCE on the Enemy team has 1200 base XP then there was more wrong in that match than TTT in the enemy team. A LOT MORE. And  i find it a bit appaling that there is now an example set where other people try to shame others instead of working on their own game.

 

 

Also everyone is beatable, even TTT....

[zekai7498]

10 saat önce, ColonelPete dedi:

It is not rank...

 

It is not an answer tough...

[ColonelPete]

5 hours ago, zekai7498 said:

It is not an answer tough...

It is an answer to what you do not use.

[Floofz]

9 hours ago, Excavatus said:

so let me ask to understand better.. 

When those 3 guys are in the enemy team... you want game to put more "BAD" players on their team, and more "GOOD" players on your team, 

and you call this balanced? fair? 

fair for whom? 

why those guys have to carry every team just because they are good players? 

Why do they have to get always bad players on their team? how fair it is for them? 

 

Honestly.....

Im in a pretty good clan with a lot of pretty good players. Ive more or less stopped playing solo and only play in 3 man divisions and when we do so I have no real issues holding a WR of 80%+. This can be explained in many ways, but the fact is that most of those games are complete roflstomp wins. The interesting thing with this is that if you use MM monitor youll see that most of the players in our team are players above 50% WR, where as the enemy team has mostly sub 50% WR players. So obviously it will be a roflstomp.

As Ive said many times before, why is it so difficult to evenly distribute players in each team in accordance to ship WR to balance the teams as good as possible. I do not want to roflstomp the enemy team, there is no fun in that.

This whole thing is a downwards spiral aswell. Fewer and fewer good players in good clans wants to play solo, for the simple reason that they cant affect the roflstomps and their WR is in the hands of the MM not their personal skill. So what we see are more and more good players playing in 3 man divisions only and more or less only the average to bad players play solo. Because most players in the game are solo, average or bad. That means that the division of 3 good players will have a significant effect on the outcome of the game and the team that didnt get that good division will more or less automaticly lose.

 

I honestly see so many things wrong in this game and its players. More and more the less I play it to be perfectly honest. Why is WR in random battles even a measurable stat? It varies hugely depending on how lucky you are with the MM, not only with the players but also how often youre top tier. It varies greatly depending on if youre playing in a division or not. Its way too easy to boost your stats far above your skillevel.

Ill be honest and say this game is ruined for me, I dont think I will ever actualy enjoy it anymore as much as I used to, if at all. The pressure to perform, to maintain or improve the stats makes the game a chore and not an enjoyable experience and I very much envy the people who still do not care and only play the game for fun no matter the stats. I cannot do so, Ive tried for so long but I cant do it. No matter the mindset I get extremely angry and frustrated after a few bad games or a few defeats, sometimes it only takes one game. Sometimes I log in and do well in a few games, maybe even win 3-4 games straight. After that I log off, because Im too afraid to start losing again. Its become a mental blockage and I dont think its possible to overcome it.

I think this game would benefit a LOT from a grind mode where stats arent measured. Such as random battles. Put in subs and CVs and whatever else but dont measure stats, no average damage, no average xp, no WR. A game mode where you can simply test stuff, play to relax when coming home from work in the evening. No anger, no frustration.

Use ranked or clanbattles to measure E-peen.

[DFens_666]

25 minutes ago, Floofz said:

I think this game would benefit a LOT from a grind mode where stats arent measured. Such as random battles. Put in subs and CVs and whatever else but dont measure stats, no average damage, no average xp, no WR. A game mode where you can simply test stuff, play to relax when coming home from work in the evening. No anger, no frustration.

 

Atleast for me, that doesnt work. I had no interest in playing sub-mode, after what ive heard from my clanmates. It was like a total shitshow, people yoloing left and right, not playing properly. How is that fun? How is it fun, getting slaughtered without counterplay because your team was eating that glue with a snowshovel.

If there is no teamplay in a teamgame, and everyone is playing their own [edited], its not fun (regardless of gamemode). The exception being, that i can be selfrelient so it wont matter, like the sprint 1v1. But thats something im not looking for in this game: Its a teamgame for me, not a 1v1. Ships arent balanced for 1v1s, as we could all see.

Thats why i only play divisions, atleast there is teamplay. The reason to play a PvP teamgame, is to win. But everyone thinks, its about "Damage/XP/Grinding/Missions" and THATS whats ruining this game. They dont care about winning, they only want they need to do, so they are literally working, not playing.