Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

[BLUB__BLUB]

21 hours ago, Excavatus said:

Just wanted to share this here again. 

It is from the latest Q&A session

That's all nice and fine Excavatus. But in some games a ROFLSTOMP win is at least fun. 

In WOWS it is mega crapo. There will be only a few players having fun, half the winning team is bored to death as well.

[Excavatus]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

There will be only a few players having fun, half the winning team is bored to death as well.

If you ask my personal opinion, 

Most of the times, those guys gets bored to death because of their own choices. 

 

I believe this, 

Reading the map and acting on that info, the "situational awereness" is the most important skill one can have in this game. 

Sadly very big majority don't have it.. That is the main problem behing roflstomps.. not the MM.. 

 

When 9 of your team goes to one border, and refuses to go in a completely free cap..

what can MM do about that.. 

 

[ColonelPete]

4 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

If you ask my personal opinion, 

Most of the times, those guys gets bored to death because of their own choices. 

 

I believe this, 

Reading the map and acting on that info, the "situational awereness" is the most important skill one can have in this game. 

Sadly very big majority don't have it.. That is the main problem behing roflstomps.. not the MM.. 

 

When 9 of your team goes to one border, and refuses to go in a completely free cap..

what can MM do about that.. 

 

Had such a game yesterday.

 

3 Cruiser, 1 BB, 1 DD (me) start on the south eastern side of Two Brothers.

A 3 man BB division starts in the middle.

 

The division goes west to support the flank, giving them a huger numbers advantage and leaving us outnumbered.

Our BB decides from the start to go west too (sailing over half the map), leaving 3 Cruiser and one DD to stop the enemy attack.

We even manage to sink the enemy DD and get the east cap, but then another cruiser decides it is enough for him and sails away. One cruiser gets sunk by the three enemy BB attacking our side and then the remaining cruiser and I decide to move out of Dodge, but he gets sunk anyway.

All the while our overwhelming western force was not able to push through the flank. They were all bundled up in one spot at the border, had no crossfire opportunities and were held in check by a Västeras...

The game ended with 4 ships sunk in total. Our team sunk one ship and that was done by me while being completly outnumbered.

 

How is the MM supposed to fix such a division?

[BLUB__BLUB]

26 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

If you ask my personal opinion, 

Most of the times, those guys gets bored to death because of their own choices. 

Well if you take LOLorado and you get zero score... 

But OK yes take islandhugger in T10 indeed your own fault.

 

26 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

I believe this, 

Reading the map and acting on that info, the "situational awereness" is the most important skill one can have in this game. 

Sadly very big majority don't have it.. That is the main problem behing roflstomps.. not the MM.. 

That's true. But check: the majority. 

Now what if that majority is on one side, other side gets 3, 4 non-majority players?

 

26 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

When 9 of your team goes to one border, and refuses to go in a completely free cap..

what can MM do about that.. 

Make sure the non-majority players get divided a bit more equally.

Currently it is depending on sheep & RNGesus.

 

Maybe have it kick in >60%WR. It's not that hard. 

[Excavatus]

6 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Make sure the non-majority players get divided a bit more equally.

Currently it is depending on sheep & RNGesus.

There is only 1 idea actually I think which MAY work slightly.. 

let MM work as normal, pick 24 players as usual... 

then check for WRs among them.. and swap a couple If necessary / possible. 

 

Like, 4BBs per side, one side has 3 bad players 1 average, other side has 2 unicums and 2 bad players.. lets swap the average one with 1 unicum..

something like that.. 

 

[Aetius85]

6 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

There is only 1 idea actually I think which MAY work slightly.. 

let MM work as normal, pick 24 players as usual... 

then check for WRs among them.. and swap a couple If necessary / possible. 

 

Like, 4BBs per side, one side has 3 bad players 1 average, other side has 2 unicums and 2 bad players.. lets swap the average one with 1 unicum..

something like that.. 

 

WR should be the one of the ship you are using, but in some way the average account WR should be considered (pick a unicum which still struggles on a new ship, should be considered bad?)..

Agree the checks should be done for each class, especially when there is a single ship on that class (1cv/1dd) --> in that case when in your team there is a player with a 10 battles on a GZ, 10k avg dmg and 33% WR, on the other side a Shokaku with 500 battles, 80k avg dmg and 58% wr the MM should try to swap 1 of the 2 players with another one in queue with similar parameters

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

54 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

There is only 1 idea actually I think which MAY work slightly.. 

let MM work as normal, pick 24 players as usual... 

then check for WRs among them.. and swap a couple If necessary / possible. 

 

Yes, and start that if there's players with >60%WR. Those 10% are not gonna matter.

Well, just to make sure... also do it with players < 40% (I bet that will be more work).

I think it will work MIRACLES. Simple check too: measure time of games. 

 

You do not need 100% accurate MM. It would take too long, too. And it would be... well... sketchy.

Because it would also require accurate calculations and that is simply not possible. 

 

Problem is you have so many ships that depend on DoT. What wil they do in a 5-minute-game.

Well nothing, and that is also why I do not have 60-70K average on Ark Royal. 

Because there's games... you do 15-25K... and you know you could not do more (win or lose). 

Even when you win, you go glglglglglglglggllllllllrrrrsrststtsststs@^@##@%%@.....

 

Same in higher tiers. 35K on a Conqueror, bleeding credits. Enjoy... 

 

Quote

Like, 4BBs per side, one side has 3 bad players 1 average, other side has 2 unicums and 2 bad players.. lets swap the average one with 1 unicum..

something like that.. 

Something like, first use normal MM, then even out the total WR a bit. 

You have 12 players. 12*50% = 600. If one side has 900... you know what is about to happen...

Swap some players left/right. Of course you will not reach 600 vs 600. But sort of.

 

Hey I know some that use Match Maker Monitor. They can do it while the game loads.

I'm sure WG can do it. 

 

[gabberworld]

2 hours ago, Excavatus said:

When 9 of your team goes to one border, and refuses to go in a completely free cap..

what can MM do about that..

 

mm can balance those, server see everything what happens in battles,  it is just in developers hands if they bothered to-do that

 

there is also inside statics the Contribution to capture so its already inside game but not inside mm balance

[DFens_666]

22 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

mm can balance those, server see everything what happens in battles,  it is just in developers hands if they bothered to-do that

 

While i assume its true, most players do the same stuff over and over, its certainly not guaranteed.

Ive seen 1 guy, who was on my team, and basicly did nothing the entire game. Next game, he was on the enemy team, and he played normaly Or had an AFK guy once, next battle again on my team but that time he atleast moved from spawn...

[BLUB__BLUB]

25 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

mm can balance those, server see everything what happens in battles,  it is just in developers hands if they bothered to-do that

there is also inside statics the Contribution to capture so its already inside game but not inside mm balance

There is no need for that at all. If players are stupid, well, stupid is as stupid does.

It will reflect in WR/damage. Therefore it is easy to "balance out". 

If guys running Match Maker Monitor can do it... not like they have the "premonition gift", really.

 

Just now, DFens_666 said:

While i assume its true, most players do the same stuff over and over, its certainly not guaranteed.

Ive seen 1 guy, who was on my team, and basicly did nothing the entire game. Next game, he was on the enemy team, and he played normaly Or had an AFK guy once, next battle again on my team but that time he atleast moved from spawn...

Well yes those "most players" have the 40%WR... 

It is possible to distribute them equally. Share the joy... 

[gabberworld]

19 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 its certainly not guaranteed.

 

yes, true , but there is no possible make prefect balance anyway in this game, only make it better

[rnat]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Hey I know some that use Match Maker Monitor. They can do it while the game loads.

I'm sure WG can do it.  

Let's be honest mate it's rather ususual for any of the teams to reach an average of 50% ship- or account-WR.

This would bring us to a situation where the better any player is the more horrible his team, which brings us all the problems that have been mentioned a lot in this thread, so I won't repeat them.

But just as an example: I'm in the low 60s. To get to an average of say 45-48% you have to drag up ppl in the low 40s or even 30s into my team (that is on top of however many the other team has),

which to be perfectly honest with you I wouldn't appreciate at all, given how much of a struggle it can be to compensate for average number of potatoes that are on the team by default.

[BLUB__BLUB]

23 minutes ago, rnat said:

Let's be honest mate it's rather ususual for any of the teams to reach an average of 50% ship- or account-WR.

This would bring us to a situation where the better any player is the more horrible his team, which brings us all the problems that have been mentioned a lot in this thread, so I won't repeat them.

But just as an example: I'm in the low 60s. To get to an average of say 45-48% you have to drag up ppl in the low 40s or even 30s into my team (that is on top of however many the other team has),

which to be perfectly honest with you I wouldn't appreciate at all, given how much of a struggle it can be to compensate for average number of potatoes that are on the team by default.

But that's not how it is supposed to work. 

 

Say you have 64%, the average of teams is important.

Your average would not matter that much if the other team all has 50%.

But say they have 3 players that have 45%. 

 

Now that means YOU will be moved to that team. 

The 40% dude will probably end up in yours. 

I bet it will improve your kill rate... 

 

Teams get more equally matched. Doesn't mean that you can't be a good player anymore. 

60% players are not that rare. I doubt if you're the only one. 

 

But when ROFLSTOMPS happen.

Mostly though your team has 3 or 4 players that have 60%+.

And the other team has 3 or 4 that have below 45%. 

 

WHEN ROFLSTOMP doesnt happen...

That is probably when coincidence MM already took care of it. 

[rnat]

29 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

But that's not how it is supposed to work. 

 

Say you have 64%, the average of teams is important.

Your average would not matter that much if the other team all has 50%.

But say they have 3 players that have 45%. 

 

Now that means YOU will be moved to that team. 

The 40% dude will probably end up in yours. 

I bet it will improve your kill rate... 

No, that's exactly how it will work. Because I'm me I'll now have 2-3 more ppl I will have to compensate for.

Be that because they get assigned to my team or I get moved to theirs is completely irrelevant for this discussion.

My team will on average is almost guaranteed to have more bad players and the enemy team will on average have better players compared to an average team then and compared to the average now.

That means by playing well I would actively shoot myself in the foot regarding my team-composition. Because I'm above 50, so that difference has to be made up amongst my team.

And as I said 50% isn't a realistic average given how most people play. 48-49% is more along my experience (though I will do a sanity check on that today to make sure this isn't just my bias)

 

Lastly: How is it going to improve my enjoyment or my results if my team on average collapses faster (or is just in general less use alive) and my average enemy is better at the game at the same time ?

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Teams get more equally matched. Doesn't mean that you can't be a good player anymore. 

60% players are not that rare. I doubt if you're the only one. 

For one I'm no one special. There's literally hundreds of players better than me.

That's it though, we're talking single percentages of the player-base so it's not very likely that MM will be able to always find someone equally skilled to compensate.

Now imagine a 3 man TTT-div. Or any 3-man division with players in their 60s.

Think how the rest of their team would have to look like to bring that average back to ~48%

 

 

Now imagine your idea being implemented. My WR would plummet. The WR of bad players would rise.

I.e. WR would stop being a reliable measurement of player-skill because of the secondary effect of the MM.

How would you implement your system in that case ?

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

No, that's exactly how it will work. Because I'm me I'll now have 2-3 more ppl I will have to compensate for.

Actually your whole TEAM will have two more of those.

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

Be that because they get assigned to my team or I get moved to theirs is completely irrelevant for this discussion.

Correct.

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

My team will on average is almost guaranteed to have more bad players and the enemy team will on average have better players compared to an average team then and compared to the average now.

That means by playing well I would actively shoot myself in the foot regarding my team-composition. Because I'm above 50, so that difference has to be made up amongst my team.

And as I said 50% isn't a realistic average given how most people play. 48-49% is more along my experience (though I will do a sanity check on that today to make sure this isn't just my bias)

Correct again. I also suppose MM shouldn't try to get it to 50%.

Just SOME shuffling to prevent ROFLSTOMPS.

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

Lastly: How is it going to improve my enjoyment or my results if my team on average collapses faster (or is just in general less use alive) and my average enemy is better at the game at the same time ?

It will not - it will prevent the ENEMY from collapsing faster. AKA stop ROFLSTOMPS. 

Remember you are NOW sometimes that only +60% player, and then you will NOT be. 

Because, as you say, that 60% is not that special. But you will have less "special"players, if that is so. 

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

For one I'm no one special. There's literally hundreds of players better than me.

That's it though, we're talking single percentages of the player-base so it's not very likely that MM will be able to always find someone equally skilled to compensate.

Which is why it should not matter THAT much. 

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

Now imagine a 3 man TTT-div. Or any 3-man division with players in their 60s.

Think how the rest of their team would have to look like to bring that average back to ~48%

Well no. Because the average is not important. 

But...  say you have such a team (and usually they have >70%, BTW). 

I've seen them often enough at T6, 3-man-div, the only ones having fun is THEM. 

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

Now imagine your idea being implemented. My WR would plummet. The WR of bad players would rise.

I don't think yours would "plummet". But yes WR of bad players would rise. A few % maybe.

On  the other hand. You'd have longer games and get a lot more damage.

 

6 minutes ago, rnat said:

I.e. WR would stop being a reliable measurement of player-skill because of the secondary effect of the MM.

How would you implement your system in that case ?

I'd say maybe make it "compensate" less in higher tier games. 

Say upto T5 it shuffles 5 people, T6 it shuffles 4 people, T7 it shuffles 3....

But I'd also say a unicum-division in low tiers deserves a full complement of potatoes... 

 

I'm not that worried TBH, but I also get both ROFLSTOMPS and ROFLSTOMPed. 

When you win well yeah you win but you can't score anything. In some ships I have >60%.

Can't say I enjoy those games more than others though, even if I seems to do pretty well in those ships. 

When you lose well you  don't score much (or maybe sometimes, you do... but you are the only one).

 

And yes as such your WR would maybe suffer, depending how much better you are than the rest. 

But the judge after such would not be WR, it would be how much damage/kills you make. Which will rise.

And you'd still be able to have a higher WR than the average, you'd just have to do more work for it... 

[ForlornSailor]

4 hours ago, Excavatus said:

There is only 1 idea actually I think which MAY work slightly.. 

let MM work as normal, pick 24 players as usual... 

then check for WRs among them.. and swap a couple If necessary / possible. 

 

Like, 4BBs per side, one side has 3 bad players 1 average, other side has 2 unicums and 2 bad players.. lets swap the average one with 1 unicum..

something like that.. 

 

I thought of stuff like that myself and it does sound nice on the first glance. But we have to ask, if we really want this? It would work against "us" (everyone above 50% WR - the higher the more) rather often. Im kinda not fond of the idea, that matchmaker would constanly throw the rotten potatos on my side just because I have a rather high winrate. and btw if anyone wants to hear my conspiracy theory: I actually think, the matchmaker in ranked sprint works exactly like that. And once I had this feeling, I started to collect data and that looked really suspcious...

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

I thought of stuff like that myself and it does sound nice on the first glance. But we have to ask, if we really want this? It would work against "us" (everyone above 50% WR - the higher the more) rather often. Im kinda not fond of the idea, that matchmaker would constanly throw the rotten potatos on my side just because I have a rather high winrate. and btw if anyone wants to hear my conspiracy theory: I actually think, the matchmaker in ranked sprint works exactly like that. And once I had this feeling, I started to collect data and that looked really suspcious...

Well, maybe your WR would go lower - but maybe not. 

You will win if you are better. I think what would go up is your damage and kills... 

Because now you get to have full games instead of ROFLSTOMPS. You'll get more XP from the game. 

 

 

[BruceRKF]

MM got drunk. No waiting time, 3 PM in the afternoon and you are gonna tell me there was no t7 or t8 game for that division or at least make it a 12v12?

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

MM got drunk. No waiting time, 3 PM in the afternoon and you are gonna tell me there was no t7 or t8 game for that division or at least make it a 12v12?

 

Once again: the fault of the fail division. Kinda knew it before I looked at the screen...

[BruceRKF]

2 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Once again: the fault of the fail division. Kinda knew it before I looked at the screen...

Of course fail divisions can get punished by MM, but why is the game not filled with 12 players each? Should be enough around at that time of the day.

[DFens_666]

14 minutes ago, BruceRKF said:

Of course fail divisions can get punished by MM, but why is the game not filled with 12 players each? Should be enough around at that time of the day.

 

Maybe there werent? Alltho its weird that there are no Cruisers.

[mns_2_tuga64]

After a day full of defeats I find the MM quite balanced, what was wanted as a minimally realistic game is, after all, a wolf in sheep's clothing, boats that fire without stopping like a firework that even so are always invisible and as such impossible to combat maps full of obstacles I would like to know that Atlantico or Pacifico are these with so much stone in the middle where there is a map of the open sea.
The ships are funny in a lot of detail, too bad the game doesn't follow the same criteria.

[ForlornSailor]

On 5/5/2020 at 11:16 PM, BLUB__BLUB said:

I think what would go up is your damage and kills... 

 

That sounds very likely. Its just... maybe the experiance overall would be even more frustrating. I dont know. Thinking about it: I would maybe go the other way? Like prevent, that 3 or more of the worst players are in one team. You could spread them out, because imo its rather the bad players, that cause a roflstomp then the good players enabeling one? Ofc you cant do anything against a division of such players... But when you have 4 guys with below 40 % WR on your team and they all die within the first 4 minutes without achieveing anything, then the game is usualy not only lost but even folds super fast. If both teams could get 2 of them, atleast everyone has some fun... xD

[BLUB__BLUB]

9 hours ago, ForlornSailor said:

That sounds very likely. Its just... maybe the experiance overall would be even more frustrating. I dont know. Thinking about it: I would maybe go the other way? Like prevent, that 3 or more of the worst players are in one team. You could spread them out, because imo its rather the bad players, that cause a roflstomp then the good players enabeling one? Ofc you cant do anything against a division of such players... But when you have 4 guys with below 40 % WR on your team and they all die within the first 4 minutes without achieveing anything, then the game is usualy not only lost but even folds super fast. If both teams could get 2 of them, atleast everyone has some fun... xD

IMO it doesn't matter if you do it with the good or the bad. Just prevent the "idiot teams".

Some of my mates have Match Making Monitor, then they go, oh here comes another ROFLSTOMP.

They (or we) have "seven purple" or "six 35%", and they amaze themselves how is that even possible... 

 

Frustrating of course, is when 4 people that done nothing have been shot in first minutes... 

But when the other side has the same thing, just means "opening hunt season clearance sale"... 

Which also means, you also get to shoot a few of those. Yes both teams get some. 

 

"MM change" would happen to the good AND the bad.

[ForlornSailor]

16 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Some of my mates have Match Making Monitor, then they go, oh here comes another ROFLSTOMP.

 

The match making monitor is hardly helpful for most people that are using it. Often enough I see someone going in chat "oh great another loss, 60% enemy team we have 40%" or like "wow enemy team has 4 super unicums, this is lost" and then just suicing in. Appart from those guys beeing negativly influenced from that information there is also the psychological factor, when you tell the people on your team this (eventhough only half of them are capable of reading xD - because they disabled the chat I mean ofc ;) )

 

IMO, MMM is only helpful if you dont let it frustrate you and use it to find out, which one is the biggest threat in the enemy team. Ive never used it and I dont think I would be able to cope with the stuff Id see.