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Excavatus

Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance

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[THESO]
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Hey there ladies and gentelmen,

Same as other similar titles, the matchmaking of this game will never give rest to people.

The discussion about that will never cease to exist.

 

+-2 tier differences,

Radar ship imbalances in MMs,

or anything regarding to the MM.. from now on, goes here.

 

 

So, please keep your Discussions about the subject on this pinned thread for now on.

And as always, keep calm, stay civil and be nice to each other.

 

Have a good day.

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Well, if they know very well that issue of +2/-2 exist, why for example not switch it to +1 for a change? Oh but of course that would mean clearer levels of skill of particular players would be visible and MM would be better calibrated so more even teams would be matched etc. All problems solved in one go, how convenient...

 

Whatever, +2 in WoWs is still much better then constant low tier in WoT where you do literally nothing to +2 heavy and some meds, with possible option of spamming gold or dying 

 

In ships you at least have HE fires and deadly flooding (with recent changes not so deadly anymore...) and with appropriate skill you can take down any goliath and dont rely on your top tiers to win the game as in tanks

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13 minutes ago, Viravandrel said:

Well, if they know very well that issue of +2/-2 exist, why for example not switch it to +1 for a change? Oh but of course that would mean clearer levels of skill of particular players would be visible and MM would be better calibrated so more even teams would be matched etc. All problems solved in one go, how convenient...

 

Whatever, +2 in WoWs is still much better then constant low tier in WoT where you do literally nothing to +2 heavy and some meds, with possible option of spamming gold or dying 

 

I usually havent put that much thought into, how things would turn out with +/-1 MM, because WG usually said they wont do it.

Since we have a discussion thread now, why not do it.

 

Ill base my answer on last weeks battles played on EU server from here: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190223/eu_week/average_ship.html

So with +/-1 MM, T10 would only see T9 ships.

T10 ships battles played 309878

T9 Ships battles played 140128

So what does that mean? Basicly all the T9 ships will be absorbed into T10 games. Rarely it might happen that MM would create a T8 game with a few T9 ships.

In itself, this wouldnt even be bad, but if we go down the tiers now, imo it would create problems

 

T8 ships battles played 273294

T7 ships battles played 198183

T7 would be constantly uptiered vs T8, because T8 is played much more than T9, which is already dragged into T10 matches. T7 uptiers far worse even against T8 (T7 BBs get overmatched, but cant overmatch T8 BBs, while T7 DDs dont have access to concealment module which T8 DDs have and Cruisers uptier badly most of the time anyway) than T8 vs T10.

 

If you go down the tiers further, numbers drop ofc steadily (~200k T6 -> ~150k T5 -> ~110k T4).

 

Imo in order for +/-1 MM to "work properly" we would need to have more T9 ships played compared to T10 ships - that will never happen. One might argue, that T9 will be played even less in such a MM, as they would be basicly facing T10 only.

So from that pov, im against +/-1 MM.

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I really have no issue with + / - 2 MM. It teaches you that you have to adapt your play style depending on your tier vs the battle tier.

 

What is annoying is when you get matches where consumables are grossly imbalanced, be it Radar Hydro, or Smoke. I'd love WG to try and balance this out, we would all have better games, or we all might feel like we are having better games. The problem is adding an extra layer of complexity to the MM, and all the issues that could bring.

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Supposedly WG has considered and maybe even tested adding a tier to the MM. Having an 11th or a 12th tier to sporadically dispose tier 10 ships seems like a pretty good solution. It didn't work out for some reason, which seems strange...

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This is from the locked thread...

 

In a perfect world the games would be 2 tiers and T-10 would be its own tier. Everyone would be happy and bored - except WG who would be hoping for increased numbers for the more limited matchmaking. Is it needed for T8? Not really, the T8 cruisers not all having heal is about the only real consequence. The people running CVs probably care but the rework is still in progress. 

 

T-6 ships on the other hand really do suffer in T-8 games and it is the newer players coming though at this level who don't have the experience to handle the uptier. For me there is a case for extending the 2 tier split from T-5 to T-7. T-7 Ships are much better rounded and can handle the uptier more successfully than their T-6 counterparts. 

 

Still probably impractical with the current size of the player base without reducing team size, but where I'd go if there ever was to be a change. 

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Problem isn't being in a +2 MM, problem is CONSTANTLY being in a +2 MM.

 

Playing tier 8 vs 10 can be fun. But not for the 5th god damn time in a row.

Playing tier 5 vs 7 can be bun. But not when the rare off-match when you are finally not meeting 7s is a match against 6s, again followed by more 7s

 

And so on and on...

 

I still think that introducing artificial MM tiers "11" and "12" (t9 + t10 and t10 only respectively) would solve a lot of issues.

Drain the 10s out of the system a bit, this frees up 9s and 8s to suck in more 7s from their "forever top tier" position. This in turn relieves 5s and 6s a bit more.

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If there is extensive amount of t10 games, in order for t9 to not be uptiered constantly just make exclusive-t10 games. There actually should be a lot of t10 only games because t10 ships are extremely powerful compared to all others.

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@Excavatus

Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance & CV claptrap

:Smile_hiding:

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[THESO]
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16 hours ago, B0Tato said:

@Excavatus

Matchmaker Discussion Thread & MM Balance & CV claptrap

:Smile_hiding:

Patience young padawan!! Patience!! :cat_paw:

 

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Radar isnt that much of an issue but goddamnit, T8 MM is pure torture.

Im playing Cleveland atm as im grinding to Wooster and its a major pita.

 

Worst was yesterday, T10 match, exclusively T10 except me on my team and a cleveland on the other team ... basically ended up just hugging islands trying to pretend im not there most of the time.

The 2 tier spread is fine up to T8 as ships arent that powerful but T10 is just way out there. 

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1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

Im playing Cleveland atm as im grinding to Wooster and its a major pita.

I really had fun and still having with Cleveland from time to time. It is a good ship If you ask me..

but...

 

If you think you are suffering right now.....
I cannot even begin to describe the anguish waiting for you under the name of SEATTLE!

 

 

Oh memories...

Oh darkness...
The sentence I've uttered most was, "Please god take me now!!" at those dark and cold times!

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1 hour ago, bloodynicknames said:

The 2 tier spread is fine up to T8 as ships arent that powerful but T10 is just way out there. 

 

In most of the cases, beeing a T6 in a T8 is much more horrible. DDs dont have the concealment module, BBs cant even pen the nose of many cruisers and so on.

 

 

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[THESO]
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And anyway,

This thread is about MM discussion,

 

I want to add my 2 cents..

I don't know why but tier 7 looks incredibly favored..

while tier 8s are usually shafted very long and hard.

 

I guess, MM tier 12 and 11 would practically help solving this problem.

Somebody said this numerous times in this forum, I cant remember...

Just taking off the weight of tier 10s and 9s from MM, would do good..

and you can do that with 12 - 11 MM tiers.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

I don't know why but tier 7 looks incredibly favored..

while tier 8s are usually shafted very long and hard.

 

That I can help you with:

 

image.thumb.png.2116491f5ed868066aac794a64f2c297.png

 

Over 2x the number of T10 games compared to T9 drags up lots of T8 and T9 to make up the numbers (hence terrible T8 MM),  creating a shortage of T8 and especially T9 games hence T7 are usually top tier and if not are very rarely in T9 games (most of those T9 ships usually being dragged up into T10 as well).

 

Interesting to compare the balance to this time last year:

 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.b7f21b768c16972131d1ab3a9390a318.png

 

and indeed 2 years ago:

 

image.thumb.png.ec31f793ceb80582ce91e94c6724a8d3.png

 

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there is an extreme jump in tier 10 numbers..

I wonder why this happened?

 

I don't think it is only people finally grinded their way up to 10.. nor it is tier 10 premiums..

Something making people play more than double the number of tier 10s compared to 2017 and almost double compared to 2018..

 

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3 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

there is an extreme jump in tier 10 numbers..

I wonder why this happened?

 

I don't think it is only people finally grinded their way up to 10.. nor it is tier 10 premiums..

Something making people play more than double the number of tier 10s compared to 2017 and almost double compared to 2018..

 

 

Legendary upgrades

More Campaigns for T9/T10 (where its more beneficiary to play T10).

Maybe other stuff aswell

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4 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

I wonder why this happened?

 

Well, many people think, T10 is sort on "endgame content" while that is not really true.

It is however true in some sense, since WG pushes us to play T10 so often.

- Legendary module: huge grind on T10 ships.

- CWs are established on T10 so need to get there and play them to get good in them.

- Now we had the naval battles changed to XP, so you want to pick a T10 ship to get better chances for more XP.

 

Atleast for me, these factors made me play T10 a lot more then I else would have recently. I actually like T7 the best - Ships, balance, maps.

 

The somewhat funny thing: both old and new numbers are the reason, T8s get thrown under the bus in t10 games. Before, T8s had to fill the matches for T10s. Now, they have to fill the gap that T9s are leaving behind, because T10 is played so much more. People that like their T8 ships cant win I guess...

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1 hour ago, Excavatus said:

there is an extreme jump in tier 10 numbers..

I wonder why this happened?

 

I don't think it is only people finally grinded their way up to 10.. nor it is tier 10 premiums..

Something making people play more than double the number of tier 10s compared to 2017 and almost double compared to 2018..

 

 

Here are the actual number for the 3 years with a bit of analysis as well:

 

image.png.8717fc80905789ce9b31a57a25034552.png

 

Highlights:

  • 5/6 of the top ships were in the game at launch and all of the top 9 have been in for at least 2 years;
  • GK presumably makes top 6 due to popularity of Bismarck/Tirpitz at T8;
  • Minotaur first of the newer ships at 7, presumably due to being the first RN line; interstingly only 27.5% increase from 2018 against average of 67.8%
  • Yamato, GK, DesMo, Zao and Conq broadly tracking the 67.8% average; Monty someway ahead with an 80% increase;
  • Midway/Hak obviously up due to rework, contributes approx 20,000 out of 125,000 gain on 2018;
  • Hindi down a bit, obviously post nerf, Moskva for some reason has become a lot more popular;
  • Some new ships this year, but that applies at every tier and doesn't explain why the likes of Zao/Monty etc are so much more popular (might dig around and see if I can find any clues);
  • Shima still top overall but less than 7% increase from 2018; Gearing, Z-52 and Yueyang down significantly from 2018; Khaba making a small comeback and Groz doing well after buff (but still small numbers);

My best guess is that it is;

  1. people finally completing a grind to T10, hence 5 out of top 6 in game from launch;
  2. perhaps aided by more flags and camo (125 gold for +200% XP Type 59 camo, ESCL now buyable for 16 gold, more of the special flags around) and maybe players getting better at using camo/flags;
  3. possibly a snowball effect, with T8 being the largest tier by far in 2017 it gets good MM and there's no great incentive to move up to T9/10, once more people reach T10 the T8 MM gets progressivly worse over time such that now there's a very strong incentive to move on (WG no doubt considers this a good thing).
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16 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Here are the actual number for the 3 years with a bit of analysis as well:

actual numbers being what here? number of unique players on those ships? Number of games in a single week? could you clarify that a bit please? :Smile_Default:

 

17 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

perhaps aided by more flags and camo (125 gold for +200% XP Type 59 camo, ESCL now buyable for 16 gold, more of the special flags around) and maybe players getting better at using camo/flags;

don't forget, the "more flags and camos" not only applies to getting to T10, it also massively helps with economically staying afloat there even if you're not particularly good. Between the various superflags, easily available Zulu flags, boatloads of camos with credit bonuses being handed out, and Permacamos (the dubloons for which are also available through various means outside the shop itself if someone doesn't mind saving up for a bit), the top tier economy is nothing like what it was two years ago. Whether that's a good thing or not, I guess is up to everyone to decide for themselves - I personally think they've overdone it a bit by now...

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8 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

actual numbers being what here? number of unique players on those ships? Number of games in a single week? could you clarify that a bit please?

 

Maple Syrup, games in the week ending on that particular date, perhaps not the most robust or scientific measure but a useful snapshot in time.

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29 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

don't forget, the "more flags and camos" not only applies to getting to T10, it also massively helps with economically staying afloat there even if you're not particularly good. Between the various superflags, easily available Zulu flags, boatloads of camos with credit bonuses being handed out, and Permacamos (the dubloons for which are also available through various means outside the shop itself if someone doesn't mind saving up for a bit), the top tier economy is nothing like what it was two years ago. Whether that's a good thing or not, I guess is up to everyone to decide for themselves - I personally think they've overdone it a bit by now...

 

Another good point. And yes, you are right, economy has shifted because of that. It was much harder before to break even on T10. I wish, it would still be harder, so that natural selection takes care of the ones, that cant efford to stay on T10 (they usualy dont belong there anyway).

 

On a sidenote: Yueyang numbers are more then depressing! I missed the scale, how much that ship was hurt with the nerf. And I thought Z-52 was in a bad state. Wtf, WG please.

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Another picture:

 

image.thumb.png.b1ed3f18e49b6fcf201aab571389b0f5.png

 

The key point is that T8 had a strong lead with T9 & T10 tracking each other closely until 9 june 2018 when T10 started to become more popular, there was then a sudden jump on 30 June before the previously unthinkable happened and T10 passed T8 on 7 July and now seems to regularly lead by over 100,000 games/week, T9 seems to be struggling now, will the sudden drop off at the start of February continue, we'll have to wait and see.

 

 

Dataset if anyone wants to dig further, please note that I've excluded weeks with over 500,000 games in any class, the graph is unreadable otherwise.

 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.dbeed11018e102e44e228f1daa43e7cc.png

 

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Looking at the graphs for ±1 MM you would either need to drain any excess ships by creating T11 and T12 matches OR by "repairing the player distribution" by quasi-forcing players back to T8, e.g. by making T10 economy literally unsustainable. As WG can't and won't do the later because of obvious reasons (all those prem ships above T8, T10 premium camo and WGs intention to actually have us play T10) the only way I can see this happening would be additional MM tiers.

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3 hours ago, Capra76 said:

the previously unthinkable happened and T10 passed T8 on 7 July and now seems to regularly lead by over 100,000 games/week, T9 seems to be struggling now, will the sudden drop off at the start of February continue, we'll have to wait and see.

Isn't that around the time that Legendary module grind missions were added to tier 10 ships?

 

That might just be the reason why T8 MM is screwed... :cap_hmm:

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