T8 cruiser heal

[piritskenyer]

Hello there

 

I don't post often these days, but when I do, I have a good reason. Today that reason is to whine suggest, or rather reiterate a suggestion that has been floating around for some time, namely universal T8 cruiser heal. Now why would I suggest such a thing?

 

Simple. I spent my day in the Wichita, with appalling results. Now, most of that I'm chalking up to me being sick and getting radar-to-the-brain (where you mindlessly try to approach smokes to radar them and get obliterated for your trouble, a problem I alleviated by not taking radar), but then I got this match and I started laughing maniacally in frustration, anger, displeasure and all the suicidal thoughts that told me to punch myself in the temple repeatedly until I manage to inflict enough internal damage to pass out or die.

Now this is fairly typical "eat-sh1t-and-die-T8" matchmaking, but I'd like to point out one thing: every single unit on the enemy team, yes, every. single. one. has a heal. Myself and our DD don't.

And this is where I made a very interesting observation, which made me laugh even more: I have personally beaten the Atago down to less than 10k HP, after which he managed to disengage. Can you guess what happened the next I saw him? Yu guessed it, he reappeared with 15k HP and happily plunked HE away at my team's (not very competent) BB's. I ended that match with something like 45k damage (pretty poor, I know, but not the point) and I had to spend most of the match ducking and weaving just to not get shot to sh1t by the at least 2 enemy units targeting me. 

Another example where I couldn't help but laugh in my complete helplessness was when a JB reloadboosted me as I was trying to disengage and while his first salvo missed, his second didn'T and his third was in the air just about the time I was fading off his view, still hitting and sinking me. I mean yeah, don't get hit, but you know how hard it is to evade an 8-gun french 15" salvo at 13 km every 10 seconds? Not very. If I had had a heal, I could have survived it and maybe not end the match with a damage number so low I won't even bother saying it.

I'm not asking for RNCL levels of zombie heals, I'm asking for something more along the lines of Atago's heal, which is perfectly adequate to support a reasonably well armoured and maneuverable cruiser. Presently every T8 cruiser that presses battle and doesn'T have a heal is at serious risk of being shut out of the game they play for simply being nothing more than unlucky. I'm not trying to make excuses, I have been playing like garbage (so if you wanna come at me with gid gud comments, don't worry, I know I suck, my point still stands). 

 

I think that after the DD vs CV situation is resolved, the class that will need a bit of reworking is cruisers, T8 ones at that in particular. They right now get the sh1t end of the stick: they are often used as filler in TX matches (even though there seem to be more than enough TX ships queued but whatever), and are so mostly helpless in anything other than second or even third line support roles. Sure, you might have radar, but if you go forward to use it and you don't tuck yourself behind a prohibitiveisland, you get blown right out of the water.

 

EDIT: Before someone points it out: Yes, I realise the carriers in that picture don't get heals either, but again, that would be beside the point.

EDIT2: derp, wanted to add poll

[HaachamaShipping]

Atago and Hipper get heals because their dpm is frankly not very good and they trade dpm for tankiness. And there'll always be a tier that can be uptiered into a team filled with heals. If it's not T8, it'll be T7.

 

The correct approach is to address T8 MM so it isn't in this situation as often, not by powercreeping down the tiers.

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

Atago and Hipper get heals because their dpm is frankly not very good and they trade dpm for tankiness. And there'll always be a tier that can be uptiered into a team filled with heals. If it's not T8, it'll be T7.

 

The correct approach is to address T8 MM so it isn't in this situation as often, not by powercreeping down the tiers.

I'll go with option of giving every T8 and below single heal charge instead WG "fixing" MM

[BlackYeti]

How about a single charge of heal (2 premium/3 SI), similar to RU DDs? That would be reasonable as a kind of introduction into t10 territory.

EDIT Panocek beat me to it

[piritskenyer]

4 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

Atago and Hipper get heals because their dpm is frankly not very good and they trade dpm for tankiness. And there'll always be a tier that can be uptiered into a team filled with heals. If it's not T8, it'll be T7.

 

The correct approach is to address T8 MM so it isn't in this situation as often, not by powercreeping down the tiers.

 Atago also gets 8 torps/side with a 10km range. Prinz Eugen gets fewer, shorter and limper torps, but still has them. Thos two ships can ambush other ships when played properly, and tbh Atago's heal isn't always needed for me with those accurate and sake-soaked HE shells. Atago is much more about salvo damage rather than sustained DPM, like Wichita that has to remain exposed for longer to inflict damage. 

 

As I said, my main problem is that a single unlucky turn, or other mistake can break your game in half when you are constantly uptiered. With Atago and Prinz Eugen (hell, even with Edi) you get away with it because when the one stray shell of the backsniping Montana wrecks your engine, takes 13.7k off your HP and leaves you hanging out there or you get spotted by air and every gun on the enemy team turns on you and shaves off half your HP before you can drop back to concealment, and heal up to a level when the next stray shell is not going to blow you up. With Wichita, Hipper, Baltimore, Charlie Martel, etc. you are well and truly in the sh1t when you get spotted. Hipper, Charlie and Chappy have a sightly easier time of it, as they have enough range to create a standoff range and have people in front of them that might be shot at instead, but Wichi, Balti, Cleve, Mogami don't have that luxury. the USN heavies have one saving grace, namely that they can bowtank 15" shells, but that only works if you are close enough. If you are close enough though, you are too close and someone else is going to tag you from a different angle.

[ColonelPete]

It would be nice in general, if WG threw a little bone to ships that get uptiered in a match. And that bone could be a Heal under certain circumstances.

[CptBarney]

yes pls.

 

maybe a duo heal that heals a decent amount but has a considerable cooldown between each shot?

[HaachamaShipping]

7 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 Atago also gets 8 torps/side with a 10km range. Prinz Eugen gets fewer, shorter and limper torps, but still has them. Thos two ships can ambush other ships when played properly, and tbh Atago's heal isn't always needed for me with those accurate and sake-soaked HE shells. Atago is much more about salvo damage rather than sustained DPM, like Wichita that has to remain exposed for longer to inflict damage. 

 

As I said, my main problem is that a single unlucky turn, or other mistake can break your game in half when you are constantly uptiered. With Atago and Prinz Eugen (hell, even with Edi) you get away with it because when the one stray shell of the backsniping Montana wrecks your engine, takes 13.7k off your HP and leaves you hanging out there or you get spotted by air and every gun on the enemy team turns on you and shaves off half your HP before you can drop back to concealment, and heal up to a level when the next stray shell is not going to blow you up. With Wichita, Hipper, Baltimore, Charlie Martel, etc. you are well and truly in the sh1t when you get spotted. Hipper, Charlie and Chappy have a sightly easier time of it, as they have enough range to create a standoff range and have people in front of them that might be shot at instead, but Wichi, Balti, Cleve, Mogami don't have that luxury. the USN heavies have one saving grace, namely that they can bowtank 15" shells, but that only works if you are close enough. If you are close enough though, you are too close and someone else is going to tag you from a different angle.

And what exactly is the balance consideration for these ships? Because let's be real. Atago and Prinz Eugen are far from OP and Edinburgh has a lolheal but practically no armour. Slapping a heal on the rest, I'm not sure it'd be fair if basically a Cleveland, Chapayev, Mogami could start repairing damage. Currently, these ships are balanced and there's no reason to screw over that balance when the main issue is one of tiering.

 

Additionally, all non-USN cruisers at T8 get torps too.

 

Frankly, yes, Atago is a hit and run vessel that relies on vanishing between attacks. So, are you surprised that Atago instead of just getting its attack power cut to crap (compared to proper HE spammers) gets survivability tools that enhance this style of play? I mean, let's be real, if the Atago doesn't manage to disengage it's in far more trouble and Prinz Eugen for example, short of getting a torp rush off is one of the least threatening cruisers for anyone other than German T6-8 BBs (thanks to combination of no AP overmatch and no HE power). That repair party is nice, but a Charles Martel will still just go through these extra hp faster than you can meaningfully restore them, not to even talk about cruisers with top tier dpm.

[Ronchabale]

That would mean WG would have to rebalance every tier 8 CA/CL so no its a bad idea

There are a few premiums that have heals for a reason, just leave it as it is

[piritskenyer]

6 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

And what exactly is the balance consideration for these ships? Because let's be real. Atago and Prinz Eugen are far from OP and Edinburgh has a lolheal but practically no armour. Slapping a heal on the rest, I'm not sure it'd be fair if basically a Cleveland, Chapayev, Mogami could start repairing damage. Currently, these ships are balanced and there's no reason to screw over that balance when the main issue is one of tiering.

 

Additionally, all non-USN cruisers at T8 get torps too.

 

Frankly, yes, Atago is a hit and run vessel that relies on vanishing between attacks. So, are you surprised that Atago instead of just getting its attack power cut to crap (compared to proper HE spammers) gets survivability tools that enhance this style of play? I mean, let's be real, if the Atago doesn't manage to disengage it's in far more trouble and Prinz Eugen for example, short of getting a torp rush off is one of the least threatening cruisers for anyone other than German T6-8 BBs (thanks to combination of no AP overmatch and no HE power). That repair party is nice, but a Charles Martel will still just go through these extra hp faster than you can meaningfully restore them, not to even talk about cruisers with top tier dpm.

 

From experience, Atago is no less powerful than other cruisers. Torpedoes usually prop up my damage, they don'T strictly make it. Atago also has the best concealment of all CA's on T8, so if it can't disengage, it is out of position and doomed anyway. As others have said, the heal doens'T need to be a heapful, single charge "you fncked up, you can try again" or a "wow, this is a TX game, here's a heal" circumstantial heal would be good too.

 

I'm perfectly fine with some of the cruisers receiving nerfs in exchange for the heal, however, I find it ridiculous that it is considered normal for some ships to be thrown into games as nothing more but farmable hitpoints.

[piritskenyer]

4 minutes ago, Ronchabale said:

That would mean WG would have to rebalance every tier 8 CA/CL so no its a bad idea

There are a few premiums that have heals for a reason, just leave it as it is

 

That is sound logic. The problem doesn'T affect me or would require effort, so let's just ignore it.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, piritskenyer said:

 

From experience, Atago is no less powerful than other cruisers. Torpedoes usually prop up my damage, they don'T strictly make it. Atago also has the best concealment of all CA's on T8, so if it can't disengage, it is out of position and doomed anyway. As others have said, the heal doens'T need to be a heapful, single charge "you fncked up, you can try again" or a "wow, this is a TX game, here's a heal" circumstantial heal would be good too.

 

I'm perfectly fine with some of the cruisers receiving nerfs in exchange for the heal, however, I find it ridiculous that it is considered normal for some ships to be thrown into games as nothing more but farmable hitpoints.

Edinburgh has better concealment.

 

Also, yes, it's not a worse cruiser. But Atago also does not overperform. It's quite in line with T8 cruisers in general. Despite having the repair party. As if they actually had managed to make a balanced premium despite this feature.

 

And I hate to say it, but if you feel like a Cleveland, Mogami or Chapayev is just farmable hitpoints when uptiered, then that is a L2P issue, not a repair party issue. Or are we next going to argue that T6 BBs need 32 mm platin, cause T8s and T7s crap on their armour and all DDs need the 6th module slot, because T7 DD in T9 is not fair?

[Bear__Necessities]

And T6’s that then come up against T8’s? Do you then give them all access to heal? Then what about T5’s who would by your logic go up against 7’s with heal? You want Belfast to have a heal? Coz that’s how you get Belfast’s with heals. 

 

Everybody complains about T8 when they are uptierd but never when they are top tier 🤔

 

The ships T8 and below that do have heal all trade something negative, this goes for silver ships and prems that have heal. But can all still do well when up tiered. A T8 can always contribute in a T10 heavy game. It’s how it’s designed. You adapt your play style depending on tier and get rewarded for it. That’s why you get more exp for doing stuff in and T8 in a T10 heavy game compared to being against mostly T6.

 

Its working as intended.

[Miscommunication_dept]

A single heal given to all tier 8 cruisers only when they are bottom tier?

 

Or give all cruisers a limited heal that scales up with tier.

T8 is worse for cruisers than anything else for this reason.

[piritskenyer]

52 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

And T6’s that then come up against T8’s? Do you then give them all access to heal? Then what about T5’s who would by your logic go up against 7’s with heal? You want Belfast to have a heal? Coz that’s how you get Belfast’s with heals. 

 

Everybody complains about T8 when they are uptierd but never when they are top tier 🤔

 

The ships T8 and below that do have heal all trade something negative, this goes for silver ships and prems that have heal. But can all still do well when up tiered. A T8 can always contribute in a T10 heavy game. It’s how it’s designed. You adapt your play style depending on tier and get rewarded for it. That’s why you get more exp for doing stuff in and T8 in a T10 heavy game compared to being against mostly T6.

 

Its working as intended.

 

If it was working as intended, more people would play T8.

 

No, only T8 should get a heal because they are the first to have to face the monstrous firepower of TX. 18" guns, 460mm guns, en masse and there's nothing you can do to defend against them.

[creamgravy]

1 hour ago, piritskenyer said:

15" salvo at 13 km every 10 seconds? Not very. If I had had a heal, I could have survived it and maybe not end the match with a damage number so low I won't even bother saying it.

 

27mm plating auto bounces 15" shells.

[HaachamaShipping]

22 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

A single heal given to all tier 8 cruisers only when they are bottom tier?

 

Or give all cruisers a limited heal that scales up with tier.

T8 is worse for cruisers than anything else for this reason.

Dunno, I rather play T8 cruiser than T5 cruiser. Kind of sucks when every 203 mm armed ship can just overmatch your bow. The difference that repair party makes is nothing compared to how a Myoko can run up to your T5 whatever cruiser, shoot 10 AP rounds with DD dispersion at your angled ship and still get cits, while you can't even HE pen them without IFHE with most of them.

12 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

27mm plating auto bounces 15" shells.

Likely HE.

[piritskenyer]

13 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

 

27mm plating auto bounces 15" shells.

 

2 hours ago, piritskenyer said:

[...] the USN heavies have one saving grace, namely that they can bowtank 15" shells, but that only works if you are close enough. If you are close enough though, you are too close and someone else is going to tag you from a different angle.

 

Maybe read the entire thing before cherrypicking? Also, ever heard of superstructure pens? Ever heard of "being in a turn after the BB fired its guns but he just reloadboosts you out of existence because lol balance"? Oh and I'd like to see the day the perfectly formed transom of USN CA's autobounces whatever calibre of shell. Wait, it's vertical. I don't think that's workin' out, chief.

 

So yeah, thank you for your input, very helpful.

[Bear__Necessities]

24 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

If it was working as intended, more people would play T8.

 

No, only T8 should get a heal because they are the first to have to face the monstrous firepower of TX. 18" guns, 460mm guns, en masse and there's nothing you can do to defend against them.

You managed to not address a single point I put across...

 

So, how does a Omaha defend against T7 BB guns en masse??

 

Should it not get heal as it has to also face monstrous firepower??

[FooFaFie]

Yay, but ALL classes and tier should get heal.

[piritskenyer]

34 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

You managed to not address a single point I put across...

 

So, how does a Omaha defend against T7 BB guns en masse??

 

Should it not get heal as it has to also face monstrous firepower??

 

Okay, you are right. Let's give all cruisers a single charge heal. I'm pointing particularly at T8 because T8 gets into TX matches more often than T5's get into T7. in 11 games today, I had 2 which was not TX. I'm not talking top tier, I'm talking not bottom tier. T5's are uncomfortable, granted, but they don't get nowhere near the same amount of sh1t as T8's in my experience (or then it is somehow more bearable, idk).

 

Tbh, I mind the shift of having a heal (as well as the range or rof boost module) a bit too much to bear between T8 and 9, compounded by the fact that then you get almost constantly uptiered to the point where you have to be playing a battleship or a DD in order to get decent results. T8 needs to have a bone thrown at it, because right now it feels like fodder to TX's

 

[Beastofwar]

In Operations and Coop  cruisers are very squishy. Too squishy as you can't use BB to tank the damage, slip in and out of stealth or dance around incoming fire. If you do you won't put out damage enough.  I would really wish for a heal in those modes, if operations do not offer that heal.

 

In random and ranked they have different tasks. They would probably try support DD better in capping if they had some heal ability. But then again their health pool and armour doesn't take much damage well anyway. I use the Atago and when under fire from several ships - a tactical error -  it is the end anyway.  I agree if all CA/CL would get heals, ALL classes should have it.

[Bear__Necessities]

30 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Okay, you are right. Let's give all cruisers a single charge heal. I'm pointing particularly at T8 because T8 gets into TX matches more often than T5's get into T7. in 11 games today, I had 2 which was not TX. I'm not talking top tier, I'm talking not bottom tier. T5's are uncomfortable, granted, but they don't get nowhere near the same amount of sh1t as T8's in my experience (or then it is somehow more bearable, idk).

 

Tbh, I mind the shift of having a heal (as well as the range or rof boost module) a bit too much to bear between T8 and 9, compounded by the fact that then you get almost constantly uptiered to the point where you have to be playing a battleship or a DD in order to get decent results. T8 needs to have a bone thrown at it, because right now it feels like fodder to TX's

 

God forbid this game should have some challenging aspects...

[piritskenyer]

26 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

God forbid this game should have some challenging aspects...

 

God forbid it had some respite between the challenging aspects.

 

Interesting how T6 and T7 seem much less frustrating, but hey, what do I know

[Bear__Necessities]

1 minute ago, piritskenyer said:

 

God forbid it had some respite between the challenging aspects.

 

Interesting how T6 and T7 seem much less frustrating, but hey, what do I know

The only frustrating part about T8’s are when in game, in chat you get the regular “ohhh no MM, it’s not fair” from a T8 player. It’s frustrating because you pretty much know they’ve given up before it’s even began. Hampering you’re team coz they don’t want to try and want easy mode.