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DrMechano

So answer me this...

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So the most common complaint about Rocket planes was that there was no 'counter play' for DDs against CVs.

 

Yet there is no counter play for BBs against DDs, yet this is fine. Yes DDs ARE meant to be BB counters, did it ever cross your mind that CVs should be a DD counter. "But we have Radar cruisers for that!" yes, we do and they're going to be getting nerfed soon as well (well kind of...)

 

Like I get Radar is a thing but if you're going to moan about a ship having 'no counter play' to your own ship, then surely a BB captain can complain there is no counter play to YOUR ship. This swings both ways guys, yet I don't see the Japanese gunboat DDs getting slapped with ridiculous nerfs any time soon.  'But radar!" there's 1 BB with Radar and it has to be practically suicide range to use it. Face it Radar cruisers are YOUR counter but you still pissed and moaned about them because it was 'unfair' and 'offered no counter play'.

 

For all the BBabbies that get slung around by DD captains, you've DD captains have done an awful lot of moaning recently too, hell you moaned MORE than the so called BBabbies about the CV rework.

 

Stones, glass houses and all that.

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The counterplay for BBs against DDs is to stay with your team, which they are meant to do.  

 

DDs on the other hand are meant to go ahead of the pack and spot.  The CVs are only considered oppressive because they punish DD's intended play style. 

 

WoWs's 'classic' combat circle punishes cruisers and BBs who don't stick together, and DDs who play badly.  However CVs can punish DDs which play well, as they cannot hide from CVs which have radio detection. 

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5 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Yet there is no counter play for BBs against DDs,

I guess your keyboard is missing four keys... strange, because you've just used three of those just in that half sentence alone...

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2 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:

I guess your keyboard is missing four keys... strange, because you've just used three of those just in that half sentence alone...

What? Alt+F4 is two keys... :v

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3 minutes ago, Tyrendian89 said:
4 minutes ago, black_falcon120 said:

The counterplay for BBs against DDs is to stay with your team, which they are meant to do.  

 

DDs on the other hand are meant to go ahead of the pack and spot.  The CVs are only considered oppressive because they punish DD's intended play style. 

 

WoWs's 'classic' combat circle punishes cruisers and BBs who don't stick together, and DDs who play badly.  However CVs can punish DDs which play well, as they cannot hide from CVs which have radio detection. 

 

The same could have been said for DDs and rocket planes. They could have both A) Stuck with their fleet for AA cover and B) Used the WSAD to actually MOVE so that they're bow or stern on with the incoming rocket planes, meaning they'd be tagged by very few of them. However apparently this idea that maybe DDs had to stick with their fleet for a little bit for AA cover is somehow galling to DD captains yet BB captains are held to the same standard.

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2 minutes ago, orzel286 said:

What? Alt+F4 is two keys... :v

He's referring to WASD allowing BBs to dodge torpedoes. 

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7 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

Yet there is no counter play for BBs against DDs,

 

 

9 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

, did it ever cross your mind that CVs should be a DD counter

 

So you would be fine if CVs couldnt counter BBs as good? :cap_hmm:

CVs should/could spot DDs imo, but not delete them. Good RTS CV players could slaughter DDs at will basicly, and it was bad. CVs should be able to kill lone BBs, thats one thing.

You simply cant have both: Spot everything and just pick your target you want to kill. Thats not balanced.

And people who ignore how valuable spotting is havent understood the game properly :fish_book:

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Just now, DrMechano said:

The same could have been said for DDs and rocket planes. They could have both A) Stuck with their fleet for AA cover and B) Used the WSAD to actually MOVE so that they're bow or stern on with the incoming rocket planes, meaning they'd be tagged by very few of them. However apparently this idea that maybe DDs had to stick with their fleet for a little bit for AA cover is somehow galling to DD captains yet BB captains are held to the same standard.

The Difference is DDs need to be alone to be effective, staying with the fleet means that they lose the element of surprise, which they NEED to be effective. 

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4 minutes ago, black_falcon120 said:

The counterplay for BBs against DDs is to stay with your team, which they are meant to do.  

 

DDs on the other hand are meant to go ahead of the pack and spot.  The CVs are only considered oppressive because they punish DD's intended play style. 

 

WoWs's 'classic' combat circle punishes cruisers and BBs who don't stick together, and DDs who play badly.  However CVs can punish DDs which play well, as they cannot hide from CVs which have radio detection. 

The counterplay for DDs against CVs is to stay with your team, which they are meant to do.

Going ahead of the pack and going YOLO are too different things. DDs for a very long time had been able to do yolo and do their thing. But hey, now you are forced to stay within 4kms of your other ships and do some teamplay! But it is too much work, stay just inside the mid range AA fire of your friendly ships, so that those pesky rocket planes have to either evade the fire and make the targetting very hard, or go straight and eat a ton of damage, not to mention that no same CV captain will want to stay inside that AA death ball. And you still have smoke, don't you? It's not like planes can see through smoke.

 

But hey, it is easier to just cry and cry and cry that DDs are unplayable than actually trying to learn and adapt, like everyone else and specially CV captains, that had a huge change in 0.8, and now 3 more with the hotfixes, nerfing the CVs to the point of not being worth it to play one. Good Job DD whiners, add another notch to your endless nerfs of every other freaking class in the game except DDs.

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2 minutes ago, DrMechano said:

The same could have been said for DDs and rocket planes. They could have both A) Stuck with their fleet for AA cover and B) Used the WSAD to actually MOVE so that they're bow or stern on with the incoming rocket planes, meaning they'd be tagged by very few of them. However apparently this idea that maybe DDs had to stick with their fleet for a little bit for AA cover is somehow galling to DD captains yet BB captains are held to the same standard. 

 

why would you play a DD like that? Just pick a Cruiser then - would be 100x times better.

And to B) well, the enemy team can see the DD aswell you know?`Thats the problem.

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If they come close* enough secondary guns counter DD, like they were for IRL.....many DD were killed by my secondaries, they often shoot better at fast moving small DD then i do with main guns.

 

*Though an optimal build for this is thought of as a "useless" build and a waste of captain points and ship upgrades. Yet, it makes secondaries much more accurate and useful. If not killed by their torpedo's DD are weak targets easily eaten by a lot of secondary guns with good range and accuracy.

 

I beg to differ. I don't like camping at huge distances anyway. My Mushashi's secondary guns killed many a DD on it's own  in ranked matches, while i restricted my main guns with AP to BB. Even my CV killed DD with secondaries, it also has a lot of them and is more dangerous then some suspect.

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If anything I want CVs to actually get some High Alpha strike capability back against BBs, currently they do very little damage against them and there's like...maybe 2 really crap AA BBs at high tier. Even the Yamato has ridiculous short range AA (851 damage per second and that's without the reinforcement, the Yamato is easy to close the distance but hell to drop against since you're probably going to lose the planes dropping the torps/rockets and you're most definitely going to lose at least 2/3rds of your Dive bombers thanks to their attack pattern) that makes it a pain to drop against.

 

All I'm saying is, DD captains can laugh at Battleship captains when they moan "Oh I got torped" or "Oh I got spammed to death by a Harugamo in smoke I couldn't see!" then everyone else should have been allowed to laugh about them moaning "I can't yolo anymore because of Rocket Planes" or "I smoked up in a real obvious place and got punished by radar despite knowing there was a radar cruiser there!"

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Whatever happened to the "play a class" to learn to counter a class? 

I agree the dds had it worst after the rework and needed some help but the new hotfix has just about made rockets useless

Maybe wg could remove rockets and give us more torp and dive bombers instead

Also for all who play cvs and not tried it then take American dbs and attack dds with em and once you start and take half a dds health with 1 pass you realise how powerful they are and before anyone says Japanese dbs are crap don't bother as we all know nearly everything in Japanese cvs are now crap

 

The over nerf and buff from wg is epic at the moment

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Well sometimes I use the Anshan and others times the fletcher or z39 and occasionally the gearing.

I'm really a bb main but sometimes I like to get dirty.

I deal with the planes and don't moan about them, why because I have dds with good AA .

Here's wisdom.... dd players use dds with good AA, if you wish to do better in the current meta.

Or just stop playing dds for now until the balance is restored.

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1 hour ago, DrMechano said:

Yet there is no counter play for BBs against DDs,

Only true if you somehow manage to get your engine AND rudder broken while out of position simultaneously. Everything else is down to incapability to read map and game and mastering the art of making the correct choice of ammo from a confusing variety of 2.

So the fify version: Yet there is no counter play for BBs against DDs, but skill and awareness. Which wasn't the case for DDs against CVs before 0.8.3. whatsoever. DDs are just the worst off of the bunch tho, it's quite true for CV vs surface ship interaction in general with the rework: it's mostly some silly RNG automatics against CV skill. It's one of the more severe of just too many conceptual failures with this rework. All the balancing done and to be done is mere damage mitigation and we're settled with the mess. So at this point the only yardstick that makes some sense is how changes affect the meta and anything that makes actual tactical play a bit more valid again is better than further promotion of the blob of death. It's death by boredom too often.

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1 hour ago, beercrazy said:

 

I agree the dds had it worst after the rework and needed some help but the new hotfix has just about made rockets useless

 

 

No it did not. I fired 16 Tiny Tims into 4 DD's in 1 match among other things. Didn't sink them though ( funny as TT have 5400 max dmg per rocket, but T8 DD have ~12 k health pool and still not sink after multiple  TT ) but it chased them out of the cap. I am sure these DD players must have thought the nerfs did nothing or "rocket planes" were even buffed. As you know fighters carry only 2 of them so that wasn't pray and spray firing.

 

They only made rockets unenjoyable to use. Nerfs work on your nerves as you try to aim them at agile evading small targets. When you want to fire you can't because of F* up delay.

 

But you can still aim and hit, obviously. I chose Tiny Tims because if they hit they at least scare a DD unlike the firecracker small rockets.

 

 

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5 hours ago, DrMechano said:

If anything I want CVs to actually get some High Alpha strike capability back against BBs, currently they do very little damage against them and there's like...maybe 2 really crap AA BBs at high tier. Even the Yamato has ridiculous short range AA (851 damage per second and that's without the reinforcement, the Yamato is easy to close the distance but hell to drop against since you're probably going to lose the planes dropping the torps/rockets and you're most definitely going to lose at least 2/3rds of your Dive bombers thanks to their attack pattern) that makes it a pain to drop against.

 

All I'm saying is, DD captains can laugh at Battleship captains when they moan "Oh I got torped" or "Oh I got spammed to death by a Harugamo in smoke I couldn't see!" then everyone else should have been allowed to laugh about them moaning "I can't yolo anymore because of Rocket Planes" or "I smoked up in a real obvious place and got punished by radar despite knowing there was a radar cruiser there!"

Thing is that CVs are not supposed to be big damage dealers. There is no way to balance them that way since they have map wide strike capability and ability to spot anywhere practically at will.

They have way too many inherent advantages to allow for high damage numbers as well.

 

The way the game is right now both DDs and CVs start off the least effective at the start of the battle, but as the battle develops they become more powerful. Most CVs know this, but DDs in general don't seem to play accordingly. There's a reason CVs launch attack planes first, because their only possible target at the start of the battle is some DD hero going off to solo cap in the first minutes.

The BBs and the cruisers on the other hand have always been incentivized to stick together and can be incredibly powerful early if they push as a group.

 

The main problem is that DDs were balanced around actually being able to spot, cap and get close enough to drop torps/smoke up and shoot. Both radar and CVs have severely reduced their impact on the battle and consequently also rewards. DDs doesn't necessarily need to be able to brush off attack planes and radar, but they do need to have a greater purpose and be rewarded for it.

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7 hours ago, beercrazy said:

Whatever happened to the "play a class" to learn to counter a class? 

I agree the dds had it worst after the rework and needed some help but the new hotfix has just about made rockets useless

Maybe wg could remove rockets and give us more torp and dive bombers instead

Also for all who play cvs and not tried it then take American dbs and attack dds with em and once you start and take half a dds health with 1 pass you realise how powerful they are and before anyone says Japanese dbs are crap don't bother as we all know nearly everything in Japanese cvs are now crap

 

The over nerf and buff from wg is epic at the moment

The problem with rockets is that they are not easy to dodge since their attack vector is hard to estimate. You can dodge other DD or cruiser guns (depending on the guns of course) as close as you concealment in most situations (or at least enough for you to escape). Against attack planes that's tricky:

 

1. coverage area is different based on type of CV and the time he had to aim

2. when rockets are already in the air and you can estimate where they will land, it is too late to dodge

 

Compared to planes, most DDs are not agile enough.

 

However the correct approach would have been to add arming distance to rockets like torps have, so an attack from too close range does nothing. This enables a DD to at least dodge something while it still enables the CV some degree of reaction to said manouvers. The aim/plane agility nerf is not the correct solution.

 

Once again (as with the F-spam "fix" and blanket 20% air concealment buff) WG showed us that they have little clue how to balance the game.

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9 hours ago, DrMechano said:

Yet there is no counter play for BBs against DDs

There is. It is called WASD hack. And before you say no, it doesn't work on DD vs Rockets, as the speeds are very different. 

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7 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

 

No it did not. I fired 16 Tiny Tims into 4 DD's in 1 match among other things. Didn't sink them though ( funny as TT have 5400 max dmg per rocket, but T8 DD have ~12 k health pool and still not sink after multiple  TT ) but it chased them out of the cap. I am sure these DD players must have thought the nerfs did nothing or "rocket planes" were even buffed. As you know fighters carry only 2 of them so that wasn't pray and spray firing.

 

They only made rockets unenjoyable to use. Nerfs work on your nerves as you try to aim them at agile evading small targets. When you want to fire you can't because of F* up delay.

 

But you can still aim and hit, obviously. I chose Tiny Tims because if they hit they at least scare a DD unlike the firecracker small rockets.

 

 

Tiny Tims on DDs? :cap_haloween:

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Zen71_sniper said:

Tiny Tims on DDs? :cap_haloween:

 

 

 

Yes, firecracker small rocket only scratch their paint. Tiny Tims at least take a portion of their health pool. It doesn't kill them but it scares many of them so they flee out of the cap.

 

Besidses that, WG made fighters more squishy last "mini patch" so the are not suitable to go up against Cruisers or BB if they ever were....... If Tiny Tims were to attack bigger ships, WG just made that impossible now with nerfs.

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1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

 

Yes, firecracker small rocket only scratch their paint. Tiny Tims at least take a portion of their health pool. It doesn't kill them but it scares many of them so they flee out of the cap.

 

Besidses that, WG made fighters more squishy last "mini patch" so the are not suitable to go up against Cruisers or BB.

Have you ever considered relation between damage potential and probability to do the damage? Why don't you then use TBs to kill DDs, great damage!

 

Please point out how did WG made attack (I assume you mean attack planes, not fighters, right?) more squishy? I must have missed it in patch info?

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This forum is a joke...all people do is seen to point fingers at who they think are crying for crying sake.

 

Yes DD are generally considered a counter for BB but a BB can still kill the DD if given the chance and each time can do damage to the DD.

 

The DD on the other hand can do nothing to the CV, yes it can shoot some planes but then they just come back mostly full HP within 40 seconds.

 

Also just to compare DD speed is 33-52knots right across all DDs with BBs having 25-33knots a DD can't always chase the target and can't torp after them if they're sailing away due max range. Whilst the planes go 145+ knots and have no range limit from the CV.

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27 minutes ago, ReapingKnight said:

This forum is a joke...all people do is seen to point fingers at who they think are crying for crying sake.

 

Yes DD are generally considered a counter for BB but a BB can still kill the DD if given the chance and each time can do damage to the DD.

 

The DD on the other hand can do nothing to the CV, yes it can shoot some planes but then they just come back mostly full HP within 40 seconds.

 

Also just to compare DD speed is 33-52knots right across all DDs with BBs having 25-33knots a DD can't always chase the target and can't torp after them if they're sailing away due max range. Whilst the planes go 145+ knots and have no range limit from the CV.

 

The nerfs are so limiting now a DD can attack a CV without the CV being able to kill the DD in time. It used to be already hairy because a full health DD can't be killed by a CV unless using 3-4 squadrons on it before the nerfs.

 

Only defense is full speed relocating so the DD has to chase and can only use its small foreward guns. And hope some ally will come and  kill it. Often that happens, no one likes losing the match and all know a sunk CV is a big chunk out of your sides winning/losing points.

 

I noticed secondary batteries on some CV can make short work of DD too, especially if they don't have many hitpoints left. For that they need to come in range which is very limited, or valueable captain points/ship upgrades spent on increasing that range. May sound rediculous, but if DD are always the cause of my sinking i will consider it.

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