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Colonel_Boom

Will the rework fail? I can't see the end of the tunnel right now.

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I just read the 0.8.0.3 patchnotes and the roadmap. What are your game designers doing exactly?

 

The CV rework was needed, but it also needed a new vision. With this patch i have quite honestly lost hope for this rework. The new CVs are honestly just badly designed now. No amount of hotfixing and and balancing will fix that. You will have to rework very fundamental aspects of the current gameplay.

 

What is the role supposed to be? Decide on wether CVs are effective at spotting or effective at striking, Don't just NERF BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. What is the point of doing that? What new information do you get from that? Stats don't tell you anything of meta or gameplay. It feels like you are tumbling from one bandage fix to the next. Clearly define the role of the CV!!! Not this wishy-washy "they are good with this situation"-design. The CV is too different from other classes to design that way.

I have no problem with a CV that is focused on scouting but has low damage. That would be similiar to the light tanks in early WoT.

 

Problems:

1. Failed mechanics. You put 12 planes into the enemy AA so that you can drop 2 torps. Great design. /s

2. Nerfhammers are okay as a hotfix, but not for balancing. Patch 0.8.0.3 will be an absolute fail.

3. No skill ceiling, if the enemy doesn't make a mistake, you can't do anything. You cannot force anything because of the AA system design.

4. It is the least interesting class. Before it was at least challenging.

5. The spotting changes are propably the worst offenders with 0.8.0.3. I couldn't give 2 sh*ts about ships being spotted at the beginning of the match. This is the typical casual player complaining about what he perceives is tactical gameplay. Make it possible to counter spotting, not making it impossible!

6. Just bad gameplay... just really bland...

 

I'm now convinced that this rework is a failure. The gameplay is horrendous and casual(in the negative way). I had zero motivation to play them when they were OP in 0.8.0, i have zero motivation to play them after 0.8.0.1/2 and now i have zero confidence to have the motivation of playing them in the future. CVs will propably just be a washed up class by the end of it that nearly no one wants to play again.

 

MfG Boom

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43 minutes ago, Colonel_Boom said:

Problems:

1. Failed mechanics. You put 12 planes into the enemy AA so that you can drop 2 torps. Great design. /s

2. Nerfhammers are okay as a hotfix, but not for balancing. Patch 0.8.0.3 will be an absolute fail.

3. No skill ceiling, if the enemy doesn't make a mistake, you can't do anything. You cannot force anything because of the AA system design.

4. It is the least interesting class. Before it was at least challenging.

5. The spotting changes are propably the worst offenders with 0.8.0.3. I couldn't give 2 sh*ts about ships being spotted at the beginning of the match. This is the typical casual player complaining about what he perceives is tactical gameplay. Make it possible to counter spotting, not making it impossible!

6. Just bad gameplay... just really bland...

that's some mightily constructive criticism there. Not.

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1 hour ago, Colonel_Boom said:

I have no problem with a CV that is focused on scouting but has low damage. That would be similiar to the light tanks in early WoT.

I hope somewhere in their roadmap are Classes of Carrier. They should really end up with two sorts:  fast playing "light carriers" like Bogue, Hermes and Zuiho, which would have more fighter/light bombers and a few torp planes and be dedicated to spotting and sniping, like Destroyers, and large fleet carriers, which would have a slower gameplay, be more reliant on other ships for spotting, but be capable of harrassing battleships and large cruisers with large, slow, but powerful squadrons of TB and DB planes. 

 

I'm hopeful that they will get it right. I think they have to nerf CVs pretty hard to begin with in order to get any semblance of balance, but the recent announcements show that they're moving in (almost) the right direction. If they can get rid of the Sixth Sense/Auto Detect thing that the planes have, make Fighters work, and sort the AA out, that will be a start. 

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8 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

I'm hopeful that they will get it right.

Likewise. I'm periodically having to remind myself, too, that the rework has only been live for a few weeks (is it about three, now?), even if it feels rather longer sometimes - I was originally expecting anywhere from 1-3 months before things were in some sort of satisfactory shape, and we aren't even at the optimistic end of that range yet...

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I was originally expecting anywhere from 1-3 months before things were in some sort of satisfactory shape, and we aren't even at the optimistic end of that range yet...

Quite. I would hope they'd take the sensible view and park the British CVs somewhere quiet and out of the way until they've got the gameplay in order, too. As it stands, I don't want them in the game and I can't see how they would make WGs current balancing act any easier. 

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13 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

I would hope they'd take the sensible view and park the British CVs somewhere quiet and out of the way until they've got the gameplay in order, too.

Presumably, we're Doomed on that front, unfortunately - I get the impression they're a key part of extracting money from the players next patch, what with those air-dropped container thingies (or whatever they're called).

 

I'm not that surprised (in a gloomy sort of way), if so: until the GC business gets resolved, I would imagine premium ship sales won't be as strong as sometimes, so WG will be keen to make money where they can...

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2 hours ago, Colonel_Boom said:

Will the rework fail?

I guess it depends what the goal is.   


Low tier CV players increase about 500 from this time last, but are only up 65 players from last September. In Higher Tiers they have increased over a thousand players since the first of 2018, but only a little more than 700 players from September.

 

The number of players using CV is up over the last year, but it the increase enough or sustainable?  Only WG can truly determine if the time and effort is worth the results.


2019/02/16  (Week Ending)
                                          Players
CV    Higher Tier            2040

CV    Lower Tier             2293


2018/09/15  (Week Ending)
CV    Higher Tier             1291

CV    Lower Tier              2227


2018/02/17   (Week Ending)

CV    Higher Tier             958

CV    Lower Tier              1786

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2 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

I'm hopeful that they will get it right. I think they have to nerf CVs pretty hard to begin with in order to get any semblance of balance, but the recent announcements show that they're moving in (almost) the right direction. If they can get rid of the Sixth Sense/Auto Detect thing that the planes have, make Fighters work, and sort the AA out, that will be a start. 

Well, they are currently moving in a terrible direction, though. They are solving none of the real issues and nerfing CVs in ways that make one think that reducing their power is a side effect and making them unfun to play the objective rather than the opposite. Getting rid of "sixth sense" (in WoWs it was actually called "situational awareness" back when it was a skill) on planes should've been done INSTEAD of the changes to rockets and ship concealment that we're seeing - and only then, after people play a bit like that - it would make sense to ponder if some further changes are required. Instead we're getting these "further changes" that might not even be necessary while, at the same time, the main issue of "hey, a DD sees you, now scout around" remains unaddressed (and there are no plans to address it, even - they want to remove the RPF, which is a reasonable change IN CONJUNCTION with removal of situational awareness and on its own solves almost nothing).

 

WG is out of touch with the issues at hand and either misses them completely or tries to fix them in ways that provide little improvement at big cost to CV player's enjoyment. I was still reasonably optimistic up to... today, really. But the newest hotfix pretty much buried my hopes for the rework to ever work out, even after a couple months of tweaking and even with the inevitable boost of popularity caused by RN CVs (that should keep the CV numbers up for about the next two months - first with the limited release of t4-8 and then with a full line release on 0.8.2). This is some time to work with, so I assumed they would be able to kinda-sorta reach the goal of a workable post-rework system before the hype dies completely (so that the now-working system would be able to retain some of that extra CV playerbase). But to reach such a goal you don't need only time - it's necessary to be moving roughly towards it. And as for WG... for every step forwards they make another one backwards and three in some some completely different direction on top of that.

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Id say less spotting and perhaps more damage, give them slower recycling of new waves of planes but with more alpha damage, 

Get rid of the infinitive waves, a carrier should risk running out of planes.

At low tiers I think 1 carrier per team is enough, again damage should be higher.

 

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13 minutes ago, Ronchabale said:

Get rid of the infinitive waves, a carrier should risk running out of planes.

The reason why CVs don't "risk running out of planes" isn't because their planes are truly unlimited - it's because about half of their reserves are unavailable to them at the start and only slowly appear plane-by-plane over the course of the match.

Do you REALLY think it would be a good idea to go back to the "limited planes" system where the starting reserves are bigger but no planes appear on your deck later? The effect would be:

1. Good CV players (those that don't just randomly lose whole squadrons for no reason) would have more power at their fingertips from the get-go, their attacks even more relentless over the entire battle with no "my squadrons are a bit low, my ability to deal damage is limited until they resupply a bit" periods.

2. Mismanagment of planes by a worse player could possibly leave them with an empty hull and knowledge that they have literally nothing to fly for the rest of the match - aaand you get a frustrated player that basically spectates the match. Or suicides to end it.

 

Neither of these points would be a positive change. Which is precisely why WG devised a system with "unlimited" planes that reduces a bit the impact of better players (that can manage their planes and know when and how sacrifice them if necessary and how to keep them alive to not run out of them) while preventing the worse ones (that can lose a lot of planes by stupidly throwing them at heavy AA in the early game) from being able to kill all their planes (since some were not yet given to them).

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Well. To be honest, I think the concept was a failure from the start.

 

No amount of tweaking is going to make the fundamental gameplay loop of the reworked CVs less repetitive and boring.

 

And I don't think they can balance them in a way that both feels rewarding to play, while not completely ruining the fun for everyone else.

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46 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

They just need to slow the CV play down to the level of the rest of the game....

Many DDs (gunboats, generally speaking) actually play faster than CVs, though. They move slower but but they spend similar amount of time out of action (less, in fact, if the CV is one of those special ones that back down towards the corner and spend forever flying squadrons from back there). And when they ARE in action, it's more hectic than flying the planes.

 

As for the speed of play, it goes roughly like this (in high tiers):

gunboats>CVs>cruisers>BBs>torpedo boats

 

assuming that the CV tries to stick close to the action

 

I should also probably note that torpedo boats, unless played by "20km Shima" potatoes, actually do get some exciting action but it usually comes in somewhat limited doses with longer "slow" periods between them.

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The stats certainly don't support that there's no skill ceiling. There's a pretty hefty difference in the stats between the average player and the top 5%.

 

Playing as the bottom tier (or even top-tier against super powerful AA) isn't too dissimilar from playing like a T6 CV in a T8 game with the old RTS CV's. You still have a lot of potential, but during the early game you need to be really patient and mathematical about target selection.

 

The planes are not infinite, and this is a half-truth that really needs to die instead being repeated over and over. It's been demonstrated that the total number of planes you can operate over a game is similar as with the old RTS CV's.

 

I think the initial deck size + replenishment from hangar speed is one of the best ideas in the rework. As noted, the total amount of planes you can operate over a game is broadly speaking realistic. If you take big losses early game, you'll feel it for the rest of the game. But it removes that situation where you can't do anything for the last half of the game -- this was common in RTS CV's, and it wasn't fun for the CV player or his team mates. Now the CV player will have some spare planes trickle up from the hangar, and he can at least do something, like get a full single drop with one plane type at least. It really is a good system.

 

I dunno, I kinda like the rework CV's, and each hotfix has felt like a small step in the right direction.

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4 hours ago, Colonel_Boom said:

What is the role supposed to be? Decide on wether CVs are effective at spotting or effective at striking, Don't just NERF BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

Having been victim, on FAR TOO MANY occaisions, of 1 or 2 CV's concentrating their 30 second cycle attacks upon me, I can only laugh at your nerf claims.

 

I am not alone at laughing at you, neither am I alone in thinking WG fubared so badly that (another) patch 0.8.0unfuckfubar is happening in a few hours.

Except 0.08.unfuckfubar will only mke things much, much worse.

 


I do love seeing planes spiralling down in smoke, the graphics are great.
But the gameplay is just not fun.

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I can only reiterate what I've said ever since the first test iteration. There is no way to make the CV rework fun without making it broken. The fundamental concept outright prevents that.

 

So yeah, better find safe haven on the CN server like the rest of us! :Smile_trollface:

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13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

So yeah, better find safe haven on the CN server like the rest of us! :Smile_trollface:

 

When I suggest that before the rework went live, I got insulted :Smile_hiding:

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Vor 3 Stunden, Ronchabale sagte:

Id say less spotting and perhaps more damage, give them slower recycling of new waves of planes but with more alpha damage, 

Get rid of the infinitive waves, a carrier should risk running out of planes.

At low tiers I think 1 carrier per team is enough, again damage should be higher.

 

This! As a CV main I would welcome this...seriously after the next patch hits I'm not quite sure what my role is. I started playing my Carriers in EvE online. Yes I know, totally different game but I just wanted to find out what it was that bugged me the most...and its not knowing what my role is. In EvE Online Carriers have a very clear role. They are a strategic asset rather than a tacitcal one like small  ship classes. I must position my carrier right, choose the right planes for the right targets, read the battlefield more...in WoWs I don't know what my role is. I can't be a spotter anymore, I can't provide cover effectivly, I can't do Alpha Damage and take out a target fast. I can't really do DoT damage because of the very low fire and flood changes. In 0.8.0. 2 at least I could provide AA support by traveling with low AA BBs  but with 20 % less detectability I'm gonna hide at the edge of the map cuz I won't see the DD coming , just before he Alpha Strikes me with his torps.And even if I see him I won't be able to kill him fast enough before he torps me with 4 gazillion torps.

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+16 players on a server and 4v4 CV`s would be awesome + Submarines + DD & Plane Waterbombs. It would be the cream on top of the AA rework :D

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Atm. WG is making one stupid decision after another.

They remove the fun out of the game with every "fix" patch for all players.

CV will be useless. Who will play them when you even can't do enough damage to pay your bill?

Cv playing is no fun anymore, planes are shot down far to easy, damage is minimal and you will have no impact on the game.

BB already makes much more damage and have better winrates, why should cv been played when you get more when playing all other classes?

 

Here are some numbers comparing T10 CV and T10 BB before patch 0.8.0.3, after this patch it will get even worst.......

 

AulkMsmd.thumb.jpg.2c660af95df1da800269b8798f55f9f9.jpg

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I personally choose to focus on Wargaming’s aim for this rework.

 

Their targets are very good for gameplay of other classes. They just aren’t there yet.

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Great idea poorly executed. Currently having a lot of fun games unless there are two competent T-10 CVs, then things get hectic and my damage goes way done. 

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3 hours ago, Arakus said:

Atm. WG is making one stupid decision after another.

They remove the fun out of the game with every "fix" patch for all players.

CV will be useless. Who will play them when you even can't do enough damage to pay your bill?

Cv playing is no fun anymore, planes are shot down far to easy, damage is minimal and you will have no impact on the game.

BB already makes much more damage and have better winrates, why should cv been played when you get more when playing all other classes?

 

Here are some numbers comparing T10 CV and T10 BB before patch 0.8.0.3, after this patch it will get even worst.......

 

AulkMsmd.thumb.jpg.2c660af95df1da800269b8798f55f9f9.jpg

Obviously CVs should do damage comparable to the guns they carry:Smile_trollface:

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9 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Obviously CVs should do damage comparable to the guns they carry:Smile_trollface:

No but balance means they should compareble damage as other classes!

Do the whiners also start to whine when they get a citadel hit or eat some torpedoes?

But when a CV make some damage its a mimimi theatre.

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1 minute ago, Arakus said:

No but balance means they should compareble damage as other classes!

Do the whiners also start to whine when they get a citadel hit or eat some torpedoes?

But when a CV make some damage its a mimimi theatre.

When players got spoiled with 3% CV playerbase and they are suddenly back in force, it will be obvious seismographs will pickup something. Something presumably related to cracking butthurts in internet boat game

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